242 réponses à ce sujet

[Daeion]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Daeion wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

TheShady wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

The whole point of "Does your character survive?" seems to be to see who you can keep for ME3, and since Bioware have not announced one way or another as to whether characters will be joinable in ME3 we don't know that they will be reduced to cameos, and presumptions don't really hold much weight.

I think, with the way ME1 squadmates were treated in ME2, we have good reason to presume they are becoming cameos. Empirically comprehensible.

That isn't evidence of anything. ME1 and ME2 are supposed to have very different themes and have mostly seperate casts to handle those themes. ME3 is supposed to bring those two games together. Logically, one would assume that the characters that have been built up in the first two games would play major roles in ME3.

We were told that while the ME LI's wouldn't be squad mates that they would still play a mjor role in ME2, I'm sorry but I fail to see how any of them perform a major role.

You don't think that Wrex leading the Krogan people is not a major role? Nor Ash/Kaiden investigating the Collectors for the Alliance? Or Liara hunting down the Shadow Broker?

They're all doing major roles. Maybe those roles don't revolve around Shepard, but they'd feel like cheaper characters as a whole if they couldn't get out of the bed every morning unless Shepard was there to tell them to.

Well Wrex isn't a LI so he really has nothing to do with what I said.

The roles that the actual LI's play are not important to the story at all.  Liara's role could have easily been filled by a random info broker or probably one of a million people that the SB has screwed over in the past.  Ash/Kaidens roles could have been filled by a random alliance person, heck they didn't even need to be in there, I mean it's not like we went to Horizon to save either of them.  Also, they aren't investigating the collectors, the alliance has no idea who is doing it and thinks it's Cerberus.

[malres]

facialstrokage wrote...

malres wrote...

Me (reading previous post): "The arguments
can't become more skewed."
God (grinning): "Oh, a challenge!"
You:
*writing a post*

The main story arc happening in the background
is not your story, even if you could make Shepard turn his back on it
and not participate in it (which you can't).

What??? This is got nothing to do with me. The author thing was an analogy. Bioware is the author. Hence wherever they decided to go is story progression in ME.

Sorry, got that about whose story progression wrong. But your main argument that anything progresses a story is still skewed, as Nautica quite simply showed.

[Daeion]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

malres wrote...
I appreciate and respect your opinion, and of course you are free to voice such a statement. But you are wrong. It is a fact that neither Wrex (who is not a LI anyway) nor Liara nor Ashley/Kaidan play a major role in ME2 in any way, shape or form, no matter how you twist it.
Hell, Ashley/Kaidan have about the screentime of Niftu Cal or Conrad Verner. Liara doesn't have much more, and her tasks for the player are probably the side missions least connected to the main plot. Compare it to Aria or Kelly Chambers: They can maybe be called major characters, but appear and talk and guide Shepard much more than any of the aforementioned old crewmembers.

Alright, consider this:

ME 2 needs to bridge events from the first game in to the third. For those characters to have a proper effect in the third game, they must build up their own personal story arcs away from Shepard. Wrex cannot lead the Krogan people if he's slumming about with Shepard through space. Nor can Shepard really help Wrex in the arena of Krogan politics. Ash/Kaiden cannot serve the Alliance in investigating Cerberus while crewing a Cerberus ship. The Alliance, we learn, essentially considers Shepard rogue at best and a traitor at worst. Liara cannot chase the Shadow Broker down while she tags along to fight the collectors. And the way she does this, the slow gathering of information, would not be something Shepard can much assist with.

Consider that none of these arcs are finished by the end of ME2, and are in fact works in progress. We can assume that when we pick up in Me3, these characters and their arcs will have matured to a point in which Shepard can assist them. However, at this point, their respective arcs require that they not be done with Shepard.

No one said they need to be by Shep's side, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't ahve gotten more screen time and something actually explaining why what they are doing is so important.  Lets go with Ash/Kaiden investigating Cerberus, how about if I invite them onto my Cerberus ship, show them i have nothing to hide and have some actual dialogue with them besides just being ****ed at.  As for the alliance considering me a rogue/traitor, I got to place the memorial for the Normandy and I sent them the Cerberus information I recovered, those aren't the actions of a rogue/traitor.  To Liara, I'm pretty sure that an unshackled AI and a Geth would be able to speed up Liara's ability to sort through all the data regarding the SB.  Finally, if I have to wait for ME3 to see what the LI's did for the rest of ME2, then they didn't paly an important role in ME2.

[Mondara]

Is anyone here able to do a better job at writing the story? If so why has Bioware not hired you yet?

Why have you not submitted a resume of your ability to do so?

One thing I've learned in the many years I've been gaming(since before Pong and the internet) Is that it does not matter who wrote the game story, it does not matter who made the game, it does not matter who published the game..Those that complain will do so regardless, whether they have a clue or not about writing, structure or overall gameplay. More times then not there upset because

a game company writer such as the Bioware writers are unwilling to incrementally spoon-feed the imaginationless... Heaven forbid a writer or team of, have the audacity to make a player use his head for something other then a suppository...If by any stretch of the imagination you can do a better job, then by all means apply and do so and spare us all...

[malres]

Mondara wrote...

Is anyone here able to do a better job at writing the story? If so why has Bioware not hired you yet?
Why have you not submitted a resume of your ability to do so?
One thing I've learned in the many years I've been gaming(since before Pong and the internet) Is that it does not matter who wrote the game story, it does not matter who made the game, it does not matter who published the game..Those that complain will do so regardless, whether they have a clue or not about writing, structure or overall gameplay. More times then not there upset because
a game company writer such as the Bioware writers are unwilling to incrementally spoon-feed the imaginationless... Heaven forbid a writer or team of, have the audacity to make a player use his head for something other then a suppository...If by any stretch of the imagination you can do a better job, then by all means apply and do so and spare us all...

Just an ad hominem argument without any content whatsoever. I'm trying to handle this constructively, but since the post has no real content, I'm just tempted to ask if this is to say that writing and structure of Pong is good because it leaves so much open to the imagination.

[Daeion]

Mondara wrote...

Is anyone here able to do a better job at writing the story? If so why has Bioware not hired you yet?
Why have you not submitted a resume of your ability to do so?
One thing I've learned in the many years I've been gaming(since before Pong and the internet) Is that it does not matter who wrote the game story, it does not matter who made the game, it does not matter who published the game..Those that complain will do so regardless, whether they have a clue or not about writing, structure or overall gameplay. More times then not there upset because
a game company writer such as the Bioware writers are unwilling to incrementally spoon-feed the imaginationless... Heaven forbid a writer or team of, have the audacity to make a player use his head for something other then a suppository...If by any stretch of the imagination you can do a better job, then by all means apply and do so and spare us all...

One doesn't need to be a professional writer to see plot holes or see ways a story could be improved.

[malres]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Alright, consider this:

ME 2 needs to bridge events from the first game in to the third. For those characters to have a proper effect in the third game, they must build up their own personal story arcs away from Shepard. Wrex cannot lead the Krogan people if he's slumming about with Shepard through space. Nor can Shepard really help Wrex in the arena of Krogan politics. Ash/Kaiden cannot serve the Alliance in investigating Cerberus while crewing a Cerberus ship. The Alliance, we learn, essentially considers Shepard rogue at best and a traitor at worst. Liara cannot chase the Shadow Broker down while she tags along to fight the collectors. And the way she does this, the slow gathering of information, would not be something Shepard can much assist with.

Consider that none of these arcs are finished by the end of ME2, and are in fact works in progress. We can assume that when we pick up in Me3, these characters and their arcs will have matured to a point in which Shepard can assist them. However, at this point, their respective arcs require that they not be done with Shepard.

I appreciate that Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan get separate story arcs. We were talking about major characters, though. I take it that you are conceding the point by now.

Why does Liara hunt the Shadow Broker? If anything, this is progressing the story of Liara's comic spin-off, but not of the comuter game.
The Krogan story arc is progressing a side story of ME1.
Ashley/Kaidan is appearing, ensuring continuity at best.

They don't necessarily need to be absent from ME2 or be done with Shepard at all. I.e. Ashley/Kaidan could feign sympathy for Cerberus in order to infiltrate the organization in the course of an undercover mission and end up on the new Normandy SR-2, revealing themselves to Shepard. Now that has character-driven potential (Alliance vs. Cerberus interests, old vs. new LI).
I'm not saying this is the best possible story, just giving an example how they could have featured in ME2. Flame away.

Modifié par malres, 18 février 2010 - 10:08 .

[TheShady]

Ignore this.

Modifié par TheShady, 18 février 2010 - 10:37 .

[Terraneaux]

malres wrote...


They don't necessarily need to be absent from ME2 or be done with Shepard at all. I.e. Ashley/Kaidan could feign sympathy for Cerberus in order to infiltrate the organization in the course of an undercover mission and end up on the new Normandy SR-2, revealing themselves to Shepard. Now that has character-driven potential (Alliance vs. Cerberus interests, old vs. new LI).
I'm not saying this is the best possible story, just giving an example how they could have featured in ME2. Flame away.

If that had been the story I would be raving about this game right now, to be honest.

[facialstrokage]

malres wrote...

I appreciate that Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan get separate story arcs. We were talking about major characters, though. I take it that you are conceding the point by now.

Why does Liara hunt the Shadow Broker? If anything, this is progressing the story of Liara's comic spin-off, but not of the comuter game.
The Krogan story arc is progressing a side story of ME1.
Ashley/Kaidan is appearing, ensuring continuity at best.

They don't necessarily need to be absent from ME2 or be done with Shepard at all. I.e. Ashley/Kaidan could feign sympathy for Cerberus in order to infiltrate the organization in the course of an undercover mission and end up on the new Normandy SR-2, revealing themselves to Shepard. Now that has character-driven potential (Alliance vs. Cerberus interests, old vs. new LI).
I'm not saying this is the best possible story, just giving an example how they could have featured in ME2. Flame away.

This may be a bit of a stretch, but isn't it possible that the story isn't just about stopping the Reapers??? Maybe that's just the story from a certain point of view. I think we can agree that Bioware has created a universe of their own: everything from alien species to planets to technology and beyond. If you look at it from a universal perspective, the Reapers is just one event. On that note, Shepard is a major character, but not the only one. To label anything as a "side story" or a "sub-plot" is in and of itself a biased perspective. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the game should combine their "missions" and "assignment" menus in the start menu, because that would just be unorganized and inconvenient. All I'm saying is that the story is more multidimensional than many on this forum make it out to be. I, personall, believe that each event in the game is part of a collection of stories, with Shepard's in the middle, but only as a marker. And by that token, story progression is present and I can enjoy it on a much broader scale.

Modifié par facialstrokage, 18 février 2010 - 11:54 .

[FlintlockJazz]

malres wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Alright, consider this:

ME 2 needs to bridge events from the first game in to the third. For those characters to have a proper effect in the third game, they must build up their own personal story arcs away from Shepard. Wrex cannot lead the Krogan people if he's slumming about with Shepard through space. Nor can Shepard really help Wrex in the arena of Krogan politics. Ash/Kaiden cannot serve the Alliance in investigating Cerberus while crewing a Cerberus ship. The Alliance, we learn, essentially considers Shepard rogue at best and a traitor at worst. Liara cannot chase the Shadow Broker down while she tags along to fight the collectors. And the way she does this, the slow gathering of information, would not be something Shepard can much assist with.

Consider that none of these arcs are finished by the end of ME2, and are in fact works in progress. We can assume that when we pick up in Me3, these characters and their arcs will have matured to a point in which Shepard can assist them. However, at this point, their respective arcs require that they not be done with Shepard.

I appreciate that Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan get separate story arcs. We were talking about major characters, though. I take it that you are conceding the point by now.

Why does Liara hunt the Shadow Broker? If anything, this is progressing the story of Liara's comic spin-off, but not of the comuter game.
The Krogan story arc is progressing a side story of ME1.
Ashley/Kaidan is appearing, ensuring continuity at best.

They don't necessarily need to be absent from ME2 or be done with Shepard at all. I.e. Ashley/Kaidan could feign sympathy for Cerberus in order to infiltrate the organization in the course of an undercover mission and end up on the new Normandy SR-2, revealing themselves to Shepard. Now that has character-driven potential (Alliance vs. Cerberus interests, old vs. new LI).
I'm not saying this is the best possible story, just giving an example how they could have featured in ME2. Flame away.

Maybe they just didn't want us sat around watching other characters do things, instead moving it to the background but still important?  They also said why they didn't want to include the LIs in the game so much as it would put them at risk of dying and they wanted to make sure they survived to ME3 as it's important for the plot, so having them sneak onboard would cause problems with that, and the conflict between LIs is being saved again for ME3, as they have stated that cheating on them in ME2 will have dire consequences. 

And finally, the whole point is to make people want to cheat, it's the dark second act, wherein the main hero is tempted away from the one he loves after they get separated, I still can't believe people are not seeing that, the way they are doing it (angry LI storms off, leaving hero thinking it's over) is more or less standard fare...

[ZennExile]

Mondara wrote...

Is anyone here able to do a better job at writing the story? If so why has Bioware not hired you yet?

Yes I am.  They don't hire talented people the HR department only brings in interns (free labor) and people who are refered.  Unfortunately once yer EA yer EA and no amount of previous success can change the fact that EA is a publisher and publishers are the reason the western gaming market is stagnating into dumbed down mass appeal garbage.

The writers (if you want to call them writers) for Mass Effect did their part to appeal to the majority (aka stupid people) instead of putting depth or even anything resembling complex though into their work.  Financially a sound investment as stupid people outnumber us 5 to 1.  But as far as critique...  anyone can write a hero story that stupid people can relate to.  They stopped developing around junior high so there's no need to tease their mind with complex thoughts.  Choosing what cereal to eat in the morning is hard enough on them. 

[Terraneaux]

ZennExile wrote...

Mondara wrote...

Is anyone here able to do a better job at writing the story? If so why has Bioware not hired you yet?

Yes I am.  They don't hire talented people the HR department only brings in interns (free labor) and people who are refered.  Unfortunately once yer EA yer EA and no amount of previous success can change the fact that EA is a publisher and publishers are the reason the western gaming market is stagnating into dumbed down mass appeal garbage.

The writers (if you want to call them writers) for Mass Effect did their part to appeal to the majority (aka stupid people) instead of putting depth or even anything resembling complex though into their work.  Financially a sound investment as stupid people outnumber us 5 to 1.  But as far as critique...  anyone can write a hero story that stupid people can relate to.  They stopped developing around junior high so there's no need to tease their mind with complex thoughts.  Choosing what cereal to eat in the morning is hard enough on them. 

You know ironically I think that this method will end up crippling EA with respect to Bioware.  There are people (like me) who have been fans of Bioware for about as long as we've been gaming, and we know and love their games and buy them when they come out.  Trying to make Bioware a mass-appeal sort of studio is ignoring the strengths that Bioware brings to EA.  It's like trying to get David Lynch to write a summer blockbuster, it's just a waste.  I even think that this idea that games need to be written for the 'least common denominator' to be popular to be a little flawed; I think that the consumers of the media will rise to the occasion to participate in a complex and refined gaming experience if it's presented to them.

[Mondara]

malres...you get a cookie and anyone that didn't take what I said as a personal attack.

But the point was still missed.. And no Pong was a refrence to time, nothing more.

The point is...many are shall we say..unsatisfied with the story/plot. but in the end it is just a Video Game..nothing more..the game has done exactly what it was designed to do..if you liked it, you'll buy another. If it aggrevated you..all the better, you'll buy the next one to see it it's any better or if it is what you were expecting..But again it is just a Video Game. If you want a well written story with no plot holes a no-nonsence approch, buy a book, or better yet write one. But don't look for it in a Video Game because your expectations will never be meet. And as for the mass appeal majority being stupid people, that is wrong in so many ways. Just because someone doesn't think the way I do, doesn't make them stupid, nor does it make them intelligent. It just makes them a person with a different viewpoint, and nothing less. "Stupid People out number "us" 5 to 1. That sounds like something Miranda's father would say.

[malres]

Mondara wrote...

malres...you get a cookie and anyone that didn't take what I said as a personal attack.
But the point was still missed.. And no Pong was a refrence to time, nothing more.
The point is...many are shall we say..unsatisfied with the story/plot. but in the end it is just a Video Game..nothing more..the game has done exactly what it was designed to do..if you liked it, you'll buy another. If it aggrevated you..all the better, you'll buy the next one to see it it's any better or if it is what you were expecting..But again it is just a Video Game. If you want a well written story with no plot holes a no-nonsence approch, buy a book, or better yet write one. But don't look for it in a Video Game because your expectations will never be meet. And as for the mass appeal majority being stupid people, that is wrong in so many ways. Just because someone doesn't think the way I do, doesn't make them stupid, nor does it make them intelligent. It just makes them a person with a different viewpoint, and nothing less. "Stupid People out number "us" 5 to 1. That sounds like something Miranda's father would say.

Thanks for the cookie. *munch munch* Tasty! Here, have a cup of tea...

I refute your assertion that video games can't have well-written stories by giving counterexamples: ME1 was an interactive hard-SF opera with underlying concepts that in my
eyes could hold up with the best hard-SF novels I know. There are (in my opinion) many other games that do: KotoR, The Dig, feel free to add titles.

ME2 is (just) a video game, why does that make it exempt from critical review? Caring about it to the point where we spend hours on debating its greatnesses and flaws is among the biggest compliment imaginable. At least that's why I am writing here: In order to be one of the many voices to tell Bioware that ME2's story was a let-down.

Why are you writing here? Again, it seems to me you are trying to shut people up. Your logic could just as well be bent unto yourself: These are "just" forum posts about "just" a video game. Whatever you are expecting, you should not be looking for it here because your expectations will never be met...
(I'm not really thinking that, just trying to show you how generically unconstructive your chain of thought is.)

[TheShady]

malres wrote...
There are (in my opinion) many other games that do: KotoR, The Dig, feel free to add titles.

I will: The Half-Life series (even though it seems incredibly empty), Max Payne 1 and 2.
There are others that have story and try to have one (Command and Conquer, Metal Gear Solid, multiple MMORPGs, Hitman) but I have to agree with Moranda. The only two I would dare to compare to novels or movies are Half-Life and Max Payne. No, no Bioware games.

Also, about the stupid people.... There are stupid people and there's a lot of them out there. Some of those play video games. My brother bought Aion and hated it, was bored to death by it but is very excited about the upcoming expansion pack because the flying is prettier and you can now fight on giant floating turtles or something. (Not to say that my brother is stupid. He has a job that you need a mind and skill for. But when it comes to video games, his standards are low, very low, even though it's his favorite activity.)
Also, people still vote ****s here in Austria (up to 25%) and don't even realise it, even though it's painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain and the motivation to use it.


EDIT: I can't believe "Naz i" was auto-censored...

Modifié par TheShady, 19 février 2010 - 04:00 .

[Jamin101]

malres wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Alright, consider this:

ME 2 needs to bridge events from the first game in to the third. For those characters to have a proper effect in the third game, they must build up their own personal story arcs away from Shepard. Wrex cannot lead the Krogan people if he's slumming about with Shepard through space. Nor can Shepard really help Wrex in the arena of Krogan politics. Ash/Kaiden cannot serve the Alliance in investigating Cerberus while crewing a Cerberus ship. The Alliance, we learn, essentially considers Shepard rogue at best and a traitor at worst. Liara cannot chase the Shadow Broker down while she tags along to fight the collectors. And the way she does this, the slow gathering of information, would not be something Shepard can much assist with.

Consider that none of these arcs are finished by the end of ME2, and are in fact works in progress. We can assume that when we pick up in Me3, these characters and their arcs will have matured to a point in which Shepard can assist them. However, at this point, their respective arcs require that they not be done with Shepard.

I appreciate that Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan get separate story arcs. We were talking about major characters, though. I take it that you are conceding the point by now.

Why does Liara hunt the Shadow Broker? If anything, this is progressing the story of Liara's comic spin-off, but not of the comuter game.
The Krogan story arc is progressing a side story of ME1.
Ashley/Kaidan is appearing, ensuring continuity at best.

They don't necessarily need to be absent from ME2 or be done with Shepard at all. I.e. Ashley/Kaidan could feign sympathy for Cerberus in order to infiltrate the organization in the course of an undercover mission and end up on the new Normandy SR-2, revealing themselves to Shepard. Now that has character-driven potential (Alliance vs. Cerberus interests, old vs. new LI).
I'm not saying this is the best possible story, just giving an example how they could have featured in ME2. Flame away.

You should have gathered the information for liara, she told me all her intentions with the shadow broker.

I find people who post examples of "better" stories are never able to be convinced because "its not how they would have done it" 

I think your alliance undercover scenario is rediculous. Illusive man knows everything about shepard and his old crew yet misses the ex flame of his 2 billion dollar man. Its a good thing bioware is doing the story so illogical scenarios like this arent passed off as good ideas

[malres]

Jamin101 wrote...

malres wrote...

I appreciate that Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan get separate story arcs. We were talking about major characters, though. I take it that you are conceding the point by now.

Why does Liara hunt the Shadow Broker? If anything, this is progressing the story of Liara's comic spin-off, but not of the comuter game.
The Krogan story arc is progressing a side story of ME1.
Ashley/Kaidan is appearing, ensuring continuity at best.

They don't necessarily need to be absent from ME2 or be done with Shepard at all. I.e. Ashley/Kaidan could feign sympathy for Cerberus in order to infiltrate the organization in the course of an undercover mission and end up on the new Normandy SR-2, revealing themselves to Shepard. Now that has character-driven potential (Alliance vs. Cerberus interests, old vs. new LI).
I'm not saying this is the best possible story, just giving an example how they could have featured in ME2. Flame away.

You should have gathered the information for liara, she told me all her intentions with the shadow broker.

I find people who post examples of "better" stories are never able to be convinced because "its not how they would have done it" 

I think your alliance undercover scenario is rediculous. Illusive man knows everything about shepard and his old crew yet misses the ex flame of his 2 billion dollar man. Its a good thing bioware is doing the story so illogical scenarios like this arent passed off as good ideas

Thanks for twisting. Maybe you want to read again what I wrote. There is a distinction between "intention" and "motivation".

Illogical? The human-extremist organisation Cerberus accepts/suggests two former alien crewmates of Shepard's crew (Garrus and Tali) an a sworn human enemy (Jack) of the organisation.