242 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulicus]

I liked the 2 year jump. Hell, I think it should have been five. Talking about "years ago" doesn't really make much sense (even if it's technically accurate) when referring to only two years. And the number of times folk referred to "the old days" or "a few years ago" was just weird.

[Mondara]

It's not that people dont(Get it) it's that many do not notice the little details, the signs that have been given since ME1. The real Battle/Story will come with ME3. All the lead-in's are there.

EDI/Normandy, Legion/Shepard/Tali, Mordin/Solarian, Grunt/Wrex/Krogan, Subject Zero/The Illusive Man, Thane/Drell, Zeead/Merc, Cerberus/Council....etc.etc. Connections abound.



1. Reapers are the (Old Machines)

2. Collectors are (The Prothians)(horribly genetically altered)

3. Geth are the (New Machines)(Heretics will unite with the Geth "if allowed") against the Reapers.

lead by "Legion"

4. Aracni will unite against the Reapers. (if the Queen was spared)

5. The Krogan will unite against the reapers lead by Wrex and or Grunt if Wrex yet lives.

6. Xen and the Flotilla (creaters of the Geth)...etc. etc.

An EPIC Battle awaits...

[DaBigDragon]

Schneidend wrote...

People are just upset because they don't understand anything but plot-driven stories. They claim ME2 was "dumbed down" for the masses and yet can't comprehend characters being the driving force in a story. ME2 is in fact too complicated for them, ironically, because they've evidently never taken any literature courses.

QFT

[Daeion]

Ulicus wrote...

I liked the 2 year jump. Hell, I think it should have been five. Talking about "years ago" doesn't really make much sense (even if it's technically accurate) when referring to only two years. And the number of times folk referred to "the old days" or "a few years ago" was just weird.

I don't know, 5 year jump would haev really made it almost impossible to think there could be any chance of getting back together with your ME LI since byt that point they really probably would have moved on.

[walk0nwalls]

Honestly as far as I can see it the writers for ME 2 faced up the arguably hardest part of writing any three-part structure (the middle) said %$# it, and decided to go with intricate character vignettes over any sort of strong intervening middle arc.



Now that said, I theorize this is why. The middle arc essentially has to bridge the beginning and concluding arcs of the story. Ideally it should do so in a manner that links both the beginning and concluding arcs while still holding its own internal momentum. A good example of this is the middle arc of Hamlet which involves Hamlet's admittedly contrived and idiotic play within a play.



Seriously Hamlet? Was this ABSOLUTELY necessary? Anyhow.



The problem as far as I can see it is, in order for the writers to appropriately fulfill their responsibilities as middle arc writers, the final script for the third game will have had to have been written already. And this is CLEARLY not done. So instead, I believe they decided to fulfill their personal list of story requirements.



-Flesh out characters

-Introduce expanded cast

-Establish points of conflict (see: Xen, Dark Energy, Legion's Geth-Sovereign)

-Tide things over.



Unfortunately, it was largely going to be impossible to write a good second act when the third act wasn't even written. So they instead decided to dedicate their energies to making ME 2 very character-focused with an aim of closing down the game world and options with stronger writing and a stronger narrative focus. These are not minor things, these are wholly sufficient accomplishments for a second arc given that the third is not written yet.



And then finally, honestly, the Reapers are horrible antagonists. The new head writer probably realizes this. The Reapers are a robot horde of death coming from on high. Imagine trying to act that. What motivates them? Nobody is scared of an enemy devoid of motivation, it's like a zombie horde. The Reapers suck as enemies. Better off concentrating on their strengths: their characters.

[slicer477]

Frotality wrote...

i can understand it perfectly; it just sucks compared to the wide-scale plot of ME1; and ironically the first was the one called 'space opera'...

it is inconsistent with the plot set up, so it makings no sense is the problem. we expected and wanted to continue the story of the reapers, and we liked the character stories...but as the focus of the plot, in the sequel no less...does not compute.

You sir, are correct.  The sequal Pales in comparison to the original story (Main plot).

Bioware made a huge improvement on character depth but they just didn't integrate it enough with the main plot like Mass effect 1 did.
I'm hoping that in ME3 we will have our elite team ready to face a massive main plot that ends in an epic battle against the reapers and a conclusion of epic proportions.

[Ajspeed]

Just reading the title of the Thread all i need to say is Play the first one should clear things up for you

[ForceXev]

Ajspeed wrote...

Just reading the title of the Thread all i need to say is Play the first one should clear things up for you

And I hope you might learn that only reading the title of the thread makes you sound clueless.

I'm torn on this topic.  I reeeeally enjoyed the deeper character development in ME2, but I also agree that the main plot suffers for it.  There was a lot of excellent short stories throughout all of recruitment and loyalty missions, but the main story in ME2 was weird and kind of pointless.  In ME1, the Reapers were using the Geth and Saren to open a mass relay to begin an invasion and destroy all life in the galaxy.  In ME2, the Reapers were using the Collectors to make an enormous puppet.  <_<

But I still enjoyed it, and I'm sure ME3 is going to be a lot more plot focussed since it's the conclusion to the trilogy.

[FlintlockJazz]

Daeion wrote...

I understood the story but honestly it simply made me feel like they switched ME and ME2, i.e. ME should have been ME2 and ME2 should have been ME, at least then it would have felt like the story had actually
moved forward.

ME2 was about building your squad, finding out what was happening to human colonies and then stopping it.  The entire time you only face the collectors, agents of the reapers, not the reapers themselves.  This makes a good starting point, especially when you put ME in as the 2nd act.  I think ME fits better as the 2nd act because in neither games does anyone besides shep and his crew believe in the reapers so that part of the story
doesn't really move forward.  However ME has the typical 2nd act betrayals like we see in LOTR Two Towers and Empire Strikes back, in this case Saren betraying the council. 

Also, ME doesn't focus as much on building your team like ME2 does, in ME you have your team except for Liara before you leave the citadel, and the it’s go go go.  Typically the first act of a trilogy is about bringing a group together and possibly losing a few, that’s what ME2 is all about.  The 2nd act takes your original surviving cast and introduces a few new chars but continues to build upon the previous cast.  Now the series hasn’t really continued to develop anyone except for Shep, Garrus, and Tali, but it’s easier to continue development when you only introduce a few new people, not a 90% brand new cast.

Actually, I disagree, the first part is geared up to hook the 'viewer' in, in most media you don't want to spend team building up characters at first, you want to kick it off and then get all the character introductions done later, which is what they did:  ME1 kicks off the plot with a bang and then ME2 starts to bring in the relevant characters and gives the backstory on them to supply the details. 

The first act is never about bringing a group together, that is either done beforehand offscreen or in the background if done in the first act.

[Daeion]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I understood the story but honestly it simply made me feel like they switched ME and ME2, i.e. ME should have been ME2 and ME2 should have been ME, at least then it would have felt like the story had actually
moved forward.

ME2 was about building your squad, finding out what was happening to human colonies and then stopping it.  The entire time you only face the collectors, agents of the reapers, not the reapers themselves.  This makes a good starting point, especially when you put ME in as the 2nd act.  I think ME fits better as the 2nd act because in neither games does anyone besides shep and his crew believe in the reapers so that part of the story
doesn't really move forward.  However ME has the typical 2nd act betrayals like we see in LOTR Two Towers and Empire Strikes back, in this case Saren betraying the council. 

Also, ME doesn't focus as much on building your team like ME2 does, in ME you have your team except for Liara before you leave the citadel, and the it’s go go go.  Typically the first act of a trilogy is about bringing a group together and possibly losing a few, that’s what ME2 is all about.  The 2nd act takes your original surviving cast and introduces a few new chars but continues to build upon the previous cast.  Now the series hasn’t really continued to develop anyone except for Shep, Garrus, and Tali, but it’s easier to continue development when you only introduce a few new people, not a 90% brand new cast.

Actually, I disagree, the first part is geared up to hook the 'viewer' in, in most media you don't want to spend team building up characters at first, you want to kick it off and then get all the character introductions done later, which is what they did:  ME1 kicks off the plot with a bang and then ME2 starts to bring in the relevant characters and gives the backstory on them to supply the details. 

The first act is never about bringing a group together, that is either done beforehand offscreen or in the background if done in the first act.

How relevant can the characters be if they can all die?  You know that BW is going to do the same thing they did with the ME cast to the ME2 cast, i.e. small cameos.  We've already been told that ME LI's will be back in ME3, hopefully in a better role then they were in ME2 and they are working on new crew members, I don't see the ME2 cast playing pivotal roles.  This is why I say it makes more sense to put ME2 before ME1, because then you can actually focus on growing characters through interactions since you don't need to worry about introducing and killing them off in the same 2nd act.  Are you telling me the ME2 if it had come first wouldn't have been able to hook people in?  Humans are being abducted, you stop it only to find out that you only stopped the puppets and the puppet masters are on their way?

Really? The first act is never about brining a group together?   Lets see, I'm pretty sure Star Wars and LOTR bring their main groups together in the first act.

[own_industries]

My Humble Opinions...

Some of the recruitment and loyalty missions deliver a huge amount of plot elements and or implications for ME3.

Main Characters:

Mordin Solus. A former member of STG responsible for Genophage v.2, his loyalty mission (or your choices) will have an impact on the Krogans as allies against the reapers.

Grunt. The future of the Krogan race, a purebred Krogan who provides a means to bypass the Genophage. His loyalty mission will ensure the continued support of the Krogans in the fight against the reapers.

Tali. Her recruitment mission delivers plot elements regarding Dark Matter and her loyalty mission opens up whole new story lines concerning the Quarian vs Geth/Heretic situation (if you took the time to talk to the Admirals that is).

Legion. The Logs of the cerberus team on the derelict reaper deliver info about the reaper indoctrination. Your decisions on his loyalty mission will have an impact in the Galaxy vs Reapers and the Quarian vs Geth situations.

Miranda, Jacob, TIM and EDI. The whole Cerberus thing will have an impact in the "end-game" as tensions between The Council and Cerberus come to a head especially if you decided to keep the Collector Technology.

Jack. A human biotic with powers equalling or even exceeding those of the Asari - the potential for human biotic powers will be massive with her as "subject zero".

Garrus, Samara, Thane and Zaaed are admittedly a bit thin on plot elements but do deliver solid character defining elements for Shepard.

Side Characters and Missions.

The Asari on Ilium who delivers the message from the Rachni Queen promising her support against the Reapers.

Gianna Parsini who tells us of the research into Dark Matter being carried out on Noveria.

Liara and her connections to the shadowbroker are obvious plot elements for DLC that could link ME2 to ME3.

Shiala (the Asari from Zhu´s Hope) who informs us that Exo Geni are researching the indoctrination carried out on the colonists.

The Prothean data that you recover for cerberus on the blue suns mission trilogy could be used to convince the council (they declare that all info from Ilos has proved unusable).

The Virus affecting the VI and Mech manufacturing plant - is it a reaper virus?

All in all a pretty respectable amount of plot and storyline if you ask me. Anybody saying otherwise is just not paying attention. Bioware have done a great job in linking your ME1 decisions with a team building effort in ME2 that will radically effect the gameplay and choices you will be forced to make in ME3.

just my humble opinion...

[BattleVisor]

I think most people were really upset, the antagonist hadn't really developed hardly at all.

[BattleVisor]

I think most people were really upset, the antagonist hadn't really developed hardly at all.

[TheShady]

FFS! This forum... I hate it. Wrote something lengthy twice now and lost it twice because this... bollocksy thing there errored out! Now I'm writing this in the Editor... I'm also very angry now so there will be spelling errors...

walk0nwalls wrote...
And then finally, honestly, the Reapers are horrible antagonists. The new head writer probably realizes this. The Reapers are a robot horde of death coming from on high. Imagine trying to act that. What motivates them? Nobody is scared of an enemy devoid of motivation, it's like a zombie horde. The Reapers suck as enemies. Better off concentrating on their strengths: their characters.

Who’s to say that Reapers have to be exactly that? There was plenty of opportunity in ME2 to flesh out the Reapers in their reason of existence, in their motivations, their mentality. They missed that opportunity in ME2 and for ME3, I fear it will be too late. They either have to throw a lot of Reaper info at us at the beginning, which will be cheap, too fast, completely out of the blue and unnatural; or give us necessary info to satisfy our curiosity towards the end, where 1 hour later, we kill them all anyway.

At the end of ME1, Shepard announced what he („he“ used for easier reference) will do: find and fight the Reapers, doing whatever’s necessary to stop them, as they are the real threat (not... say... weird collector-people with a vague connection to the Reapers). (Makes it hard to believe that Shepard just bends over and starts doing what the Council wants all of a sudden (fighting Geth).) That’s what I expected from ME2. Shepard travelling the galaxy...

* finding people who know things, experts in Protheans or Reapers or whatever other thing (like Liara) and NOT necessarily recruiting them but, say, spending a mission protecting the guy from people who don’t want Reapers to be stopped ( A cult that wants the extinction of all life in the galaxy, perhaps? (Hello, meaningful enemy! Could give us a great villain too and even an attack on the Normandy. They could be as powerful as Cerberus, or even Cerberus themselves.)). 

* investigating any source of information. Like finding other Prothean relics/beacons or relics from even older species from other cycles. Shepard trying to decipher and reconstruct the cycles or the information (he has that cypher thingy, right?). Gives us excellent opportunity and much more freedom to explore the galaxy. Also gives us excellent opportunity to visit a lot of planets, like, say, the homeworlds of all those species or even Omega (some criminal overlord (Aria, SB) hinting to have information that Shepard will go through considerable lengths to get (Hello, mission!) as he’s desperate for any information). It could even make us visit the Quarian homeworld, as the Geth surely must have some data stored about their (former) masters! In ME2, we don’t get to find anything out. Every piece of info is lobbed at us by TIM and we blindly follow his orders. When the Omega-4-Relay is mentioned, we already know what it’s for. We did not have that with the Mu-Relay. We had to spend an entire mission to find out what that actually is, if I recall correctly (Benezia?).

* recruiting (a few more) people with the same agenda (fighting Reapers), fellow Spectres, perhaps, that too believe that the Reapers are the ultimate threat and need to be stopped at all costs and pledge their loyalty to Shepard as he already proved he can beat at least one Reaper (a much better binding that can more easily carry over to ME3 as what we have now, people recruited for money and loving you because you ran an errande for them).

* encountering meaningful enemies, like entire indoctrinated species/races on far off planets. There would at least be a connection to the Reapers. A motivation to fight them. Shepard will try anything he can to hurt the Reapers.

* perhaps preparing a trap.

A lot could happen all this time. A lot of small victories, a lot of defeats. The Reapers could permanently make appearances, not themselves, as the form of their ships, but... maybe through creating one of those fancy holograms inside the Normandy, interrupting a hologram-conversation between Shepard and Anderson or whoever. We could feel their influence, their desperate attempts to find a way out of Dark Space until you realise, at the end, that it’s unavoidable, that they will come and that you will have to fight them no matter what.

Of course, as it is Bioware, a lot of those unrelated main quests could easily happen, but all of them contributing to your overall goal. You visit a planet, following a vague hint, stumble into a situation, get to explore some lore, resolve the situation and get something that will help you in the end out of it. That’s what Bioware used to do. In DA:O, you settled a civil war, cured a curse, killed a mad bloodmage and a few demons and did various other things that bettered/worsened the situation and got the player immersed in the lore/situation WITHOUT codex entries, while all they could have done was sue them for breach of Grey Warden contract.
Those unrelated thing would not be just unrelated, at least, like the recruitment and loyalty missions are now. They would all serve a purpose: finding and destroying the Reapers.

The comparison with SW Ep. V works well. In Ep. IV we got to meet the Empire and the evil-dude leading it. Nothing special about it. They want to conquer the galaxy. We get the same in ME1. The Reapers and their goal to destroy all life. Now, that would make for a horrible villain. So in Ep. V, we get to learn a lot more about the Empire and this creates connection to the main characters. We learn that there is more to it than just Darth Vader, that he himself has to bow before someone (the Emperor). We learn who the main villain really is (Luke's father). We learn another, more sophisticated agenda (turning Luke to the dark side) and we get to see just how mighty and cunning the Empire really is (Hoth and trap/betrayal on Bespin). We get nothing like that in ME2.
What makes this important is that the good guys‘ actions get meaning, get purpose. The conflicts become personal, deeper. The rebel defeat on Hoth calls for revenge. We understand why they do not just walk away (like Han wanted to, but due to his love for Leia and the growing friendship with Luke, he stays (inter-team-connection is completely lacking in ME2)) but fight on, want only one thing, the destruction of the Empire and are willing to sacrifice everything including their lives to do so. In ME2 they even call it a suicide mission but I just don’t get why the hell anyone would want such a silly thing. There’s too little reason given, there’s too little connection of the characters with the greater agenda. The suspension of disbelief does not work.

For ME3, I fear we have another Darkspawn in our hands. At least the Reapers can have conversations, unlike that silly Archdemon or... Aged Dragon or whatever.

But Bioware has never been good with villains. I don’t know about BG or NWN, but Malak was just your regular Sith Lord / dark-side Emperor. The good villains in BW-games were always the player characters themselves, but since ME1, we do not get that anymore either. Shepard becomes a Spectre and saves the Citadel no matter what. DA:O-PC becomes a Grey Warden and saves Ferelden no matter what.
Why can’t we take over a Sith army anymore?

 

Modifié par TheShady, 17 février 2010 - 03:12 .

[Rapamaha1]

If you are to understand the story you need to complete ME1 first, no doubt about that, now while the fight against reapers in ME2 is kinda minimal the squad recruiting and the decisions you make on loyality quests should carry to ME3, if the decisions in ME2 like geth/quarian stuff, the genophage data arent making a big diffrence on ME3 then ME2 will just be a lousy filler in ME trilogy (dont get me wrong, ME2 is IMO best game ive gotten on xbox so far) but if the decisions in ME2 dont carry much weight, then in story aspect the whole game was kinda pointless

the character import worked really nice, now I hope they use it to play big part in main story of ME3 instead of just having random people coming to tell you every now and then "hey, shepard, you saved my cousin's ex neighbour's brother's cat from that saren dude"

[Mox Ruuga]

People talk about gathering allies... What use will a krogan or rachni horde be against a fleet of AI dreadnoughts? Ash says this very thing in frustration in ME1: what use will she and her rifle be in the coming fight?

And the quarians might have a lot of ships, but the vast majority are freighters packed with civilians, useless in a fight, let alone in a fight against the Reapers. A single Reaper could probably devastate their entire flotilla, given enough time. And what warships the quarians have are not top of the line by Council standards.

And our ME2 team? Will not form any sort of "core" force in ME2. None of them can be counted on to be around, except Shepard and Joker. You can't write major plot points for someone who may or may not be around.

In the beginning of ME3, come hell or high water, Shepard starts alone with a pistol. And shortly thereafter meets the new ME3 male and female lead, who guide him through the ME3 tutorial.

[FlintlockJazz]

TheShady wrote...

FFS! This forum... I hate it. Wrote something lengthy twice now and lost it twice because this... bollocksy thing there errored out! Now I'm writing this in the Editor... I'm also very angry now so there will be spelling errors...

walk0nwalls wrote...
And then finally, honestly, the Reapers are horrible antagonists. The new head writer probably realizes this. The Reapers are a robot horde of death coming from on high. Imagine trying to act that. What motivates them? Nobody is scared of an enemy devoid of motivation, it's like a zombie horde. The Reapers suck as enemies. Better off concentrating on their strengths: their characters.

Who’s to say that Reapers have to be exactly that? There was plenty of opportunity in ME2 to flesh out the Reapers in their reason of existence, in their motivations, their mentality. They missed that opportunity in ME2 and for ME3, I fear it will be too late. They either have to throw a lot of Reaper info at us at the beginning, which will be cheap, too fast, completely out of the blue and unnatural; or give us necessary info to satisfy our curiosity towards the end, where 1 hour later, we kill them all anyway.

At the end of ME1, Shepard announced what he („he“ used for easier reference) will do: find and fight the Reapers, doing whatever’s necessary to stop them, as they are the real threat (not... say... weird collector-people with a vague connection to the Reapers). (Makes it hard to believe that Shepard just bends over and starts doing what the Council wants all of a sudden (fighting Geth).) That’s what I expected from ME2. Shepard travelling the galaxy...

* finding people who know things, experts in Protheans or Reapers or whatever other thing (like Liara) and NOT necessarily recruiting them but, say, spending a mission protecting the guy from people who don’t want Reapers to be stopped ( A cult that wants the extinction of all life in the galaxy, perhaps? (Hello, meaningful enemy! Could give us a great villain too and even an attack on the Normandy. They could be as powerful as Cerberus, or even Cerberus themselves.)). 

* investigating any source of information. Like finding other Prothean relics/beacons or relics from even older species from other cycles. Shepard trying to decipher and reconstruct the cycles or the information (he has that cypher thingy, right?). Gives us excellent opportunity and much more freedom to explore the galaxy. Also gives us excellent opportunity to visit a lot of planets, like, say, the homeworlds of all those species or even Omega (some criminal overlord (Aria, SB) hinting to have information that Shepard will go through considerable lengths to get (Hello, mission!) as he’s desperate for any information). It could even make us visit the Quarian homeworld, as the Geth surely must have some data stored about their (former) masters! In ME2, we don’t get to find anything out. Every piece of info is lobbed at us by TIM and we blindly follow his orders. When the Omega-4-Relay is mentioned, we already know what it’s for. We did not have that with the Mu-Relay. We had to spend an entire mission to find out what that actually is, if I recall correctly (Benezia?).

* recruiting (a few more) people with the same agenda (fighting Reapers), fellow Spectres, perhaps, that too believe that the Reapers are the ultimate threat and need to be stopped at all costs and pledge their loyalty to Shepard as he already proved he can beat at least one Reaper (a much better binding that can more easily carry over to ME3 as what we have now, people recruited for money and loving you because you ran an errande for them).

* encountering meaningful enemies, like entire indoctrinated species/races on far off planets. There would at least be a connection to the Reapers. A motivation to fight them. Shepard will try anything he can to hurt the Reapers.

* perhaps preparing a trap.

A lot could happen all this time. A lot of small victories, a lot of defeats. The Reapers could permanently make appearances, not themselves, as the form of their ships, but... maybe through creating one of those fancy holograms inside the Normandy, interrupting a hologram-conversation between Shepard and Anderson or whoever. We could feel their influence, their desperate attempts to find a way out of Dark Space until you realise, at the end, that it’s unavoidable, that they will come and that you will have to fight them no matter what.

Of course, as it is Bioware, a lot of those unrelated main quests could easily happen, but all of them contributing to your overall goal. You visit a planet, following a vague hint, stumble into a situation, get to explore some lore, resolve the situation and get something that will help you in the end out of it. That’s what Bioware used to do. In DA:O, you settled a civil war, cured a curse, killed a mad bloodmage and a few demons and did various other things that bettered/worsened the situation and got the player immersed in the lore/situation WITHOUT codex entries, while all they could have done was sue them for breach of Grey Warden contract.
Those unrelated thing would not be just unrelated, at least, like the recruitment and loyalty missions are now. They would all serve a purpose: finding and destroying the Reapers.

The comparison with SW Ep. V works well. In Ep. IV we got to meet the Empire and the evil-dude leading it. Nothing special about it. They want to conquer the galaxy. We get the same in ME1. The Reapers and their goal to destroy all life. Now, that would make for a horrible villain. So in Ep. V, we get to learn a lot more about the Empire and this creates connection to the main characters. We learn that there is more to it than just Darth Vader, that he himself has to bow before someone (the Emperor). We learn who the main villain really is (Luke's father). We learn another, more sophisticated agenda (turning Luke to the dark side) and we get to see just how mighty and cunning the Empire really is (Hoth and trap/betrayal on Bespin). We get nothing like that in ME2.
What makes this important is that the good guys‘ actions get meaning, get purpose. The conflicts become personal, deeper. The rebel defeat on Hoth calls for revenge. We understand why they do not just walk away (like Han wanted to, but due to his love for Leia and the growing friendship with Luke, he stays (inter-team-connection is completely lacking in ME2)) but fight on, want only one thing, the destruction of the Empire and are willing to sacrifice everything including their lives to do so. In ME2 they even call it a suicide mission but I just don’t get why the hell anyone would want such a silly thing. There’s too little reason given, there’s too little connection of the characters with the greater agenda. The suspension of disbelief does not work.

For ME3, I fear we have another Darkspawn in our hands. At least the Reapers can have conversations, unlike that silly Archdemon or... Aged Dragon or whatever.

But Bioware has never been good with villains. I don’t know about BG or NWN, but Malak was just your regular Sith Lord / dark-side Emperor. The good villains in BW-games were always the player characters themselves, but since ME1, we do not get that anymore either. Shepard becomes a Spectre and saves the Citadel no matter what. DA:O-PC becomes a Grey Warden and saves Ferelden no matter what.
Why can’t we take over a Sith army anymore?

 

Don't like your suggestions, sounds like most other games out there and would result in the usual linearity of gameplay.  Also, 'developing' the reapers motivations would mean putting those motivations in terms that we can understand, which would lead to the same thing as what happened to the borg when the borg queen was introduced (worst thing ever, destroyed the borg's mystique and replaced it with a human "Ragh me evil villain!").  Focusing it just on the reapers would get boring quick, and wouldn't give us the chance to experience the ME universe like it currently does, which I actually find more fascinating.

[malres]

own_industries wrote...

My Humble Opinions...

Some of the recruitment and loyalty missions deliver a huge amount of plot elements and or implications for ME3.

Main Characters:

Mordin Solus. A former member of STG responsible for Genophage v.2, his loyalty mission (or your choices) will have an impact on the Krogans as allies against the reapers.

Grunt. The future of the Krogan race, a purebred Krogan who provides a means to bypass the Genophage. His loyalty mission will ensure the continued support of the Krogans in the fight against the reapers.

Tali. Her recruitment mission delivers plot elements regarding Dark Matter and her loyalty mission opens up whole new story lines concerning the Quarian vs Geth/Heretic situation (if you took the time to talk to the Admirals that is).

Legion. The Logs of the cerberus team on the derelict reaper deliver info about the reaper indoctrination. Your decisions on his loyalty mission will have an impact in the Galaxy vs Reapers and the Quarian vs Geth situations.

Miranda, Jacob, TIM and EDI. The whole Cerberus thing will have an impact in the "end-game" as tensions between The Council and Cerberus come to a head especially if you decided to keep the Collector Technology.

Jack. A human biotic with powers equalling or even exceeding those of the Asari - the potential for human biotic powers will be massive with her as "subject zero".

Garrus, Samara, Thane and Zaaed are admittedly a bit thin on plot elements but do deliver solid character defining elements for Shepard.

Side Characters and Missions.

The Asari on Ilium who delivers the message from the Rachni Queen promising her support against the Reapers.

Gianna Parsini who tells us of the research into Dark Matter being carried out on Noveria.

Liara and her connections to the shadowbroker are obvious plot elements for DLC that could link ME2 to ME3.

Shiala (the Asari from Zhu´s Hope) who informs us that Exo Geni are researching the indoctrination carried out on the colonists.

The Prothean data that you recover for cerberus on the blue suns mission trilogy could be used to convince the council (they declare that all info from Ilos has proved unusable).

The Virus affecting the VI and Mech manufacturing plant - is it a reaper virus?

All in all a pretty respectable amount of plot and storyline if you ask me. Anybody saying otherwise is just not paying attention. Bioware have done a great job in linking your ME1 decisions with a team building effort in ME2 that will radically effect the gameplay and choices you will be forced to make in ME3.

just my humble opinion...

These are not story elements or plot progressions, but desperate attempts to make anything that happened in ME2 make sense by clutching at straws. Similarly silly attempts can be made to give meaning to the side missions of Zaeed, Samara, Garrus and Thane:

• Zaeed: As their former leader, he can ensure the support of the Blue Suns in the fight against the Reapers.
• Samara: As the mother of the only two known Ardat-Yakshi, she can ensure their considerable bionic power in the fight against the Reapers.
• Garrus: As a former member of C-Sec, he can ensure continued support of C-Sec in the fight against... ah no, wait, this is getting old. How about this: Sidonis could be instrumental in the fight against the reapers, so your choice on letting him live or die might actually matter.
• Thane: D'uh! Obviously, Kolyat will play an instrumental role in the fight against the Reapers. Also, Thane's connection to the Hanar and Drell can ensure their support in the fight against the Reapers...

From that angle, the most important plot in whole ME2 could be the handling of Niftu Cal as this bionic god could bring the continued support and considerable bionic power of the Volus in the fight against the Reapers.

Modifié par malres, 17 février 2010 - 04:29 .

[BattleVisor]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

People talk about gathering allies... What use will a krogan or rachni horde be against a fleet of AI dreadnoughts? Ash says this very thing in frustration in ME1: what use will she and her rifle be in the coming fight?

.

Wow you're ignorant.

The Rachni had the biggest fleet in their prime of thousands of ships, the surviving rachni have already started producing ships in only two years.

What do you think the krogans used to fight the turians and conquer colonies in the rebellions - freighter ships filled with shotgun wielding krogans - no

Actually if you did the research, you would know the krogans had quite a few ships and significant fleet. They had planets that produced huge amount of element zero (ship fuel) backed by salarian technology, and part of the reason for the the decline of the krogan military fleet were the destruction of these facilites.

Seriously your assumption that Rachni and krogans manages to threaten the council with just infantry is bordeing on pure idiocy.

Modifié par BattleVisor, 17 février 2010 - 04:35 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

walk0nwalls wrote...

Honestly as far as I can see it the writers for ME 2 faced up the arguably hardest part of writing any three-part structure (the middle) said %$# it, and decided to go with intricate character vignettes over any sort of strong intervening middle arc.

Now that said, I theorize this is why. The middle arc essentially has to bridge the beginning and concluding arcs of the story. Ideally it should do so in a manner that links both the beginning and concluding arcs while still holding its own internal momentum. A good example of this is the middle arc of Hamlet which involves Hamlet's admittedly contrived and idiotic play within a play.

Seriously Hamlet? Was this ABSOLUTELY necessary? Anyhow.

The problem as far as I can see it is, in order for the writers to appropriately fulfill their responsibilities as middle arc writers, the final script for the third game will have had to have been written already. And this is CLEARLY not done. So instead, I believe they decided to fulfill their personal list of story requirements.

-Flesh out characters
-Introduce expanded cast
-Establish points of conflict (see: Xen, Dark Energy, Legion's Geth-Sovereign)
-Tide things over.

Unfortunately, it was largely going to be impossible to write a good second act when the third act wasn't even written. So they instead decided to dedicate their energies to making ME 2 very character-focused with an aim of closing down the game world and options with stronger writing and a stronger narrative focus. These are not minor things, these are wholly sufficient accomplishments for a second arc given that the third is not written yet.

And then finally, honestly, the Reapers are horrible antagonists. The new head writer probably realizes this. The Reapers are a robot horde of death coming from on high. Imagine trying to act that. What motivates them? Nobody is scared of an enemy devoid of motivation, it's like a zombie horde. The Reapers suck as enemies. Better off concentrating on their strengths: their characters.

Very well said. Don't forget as well that by focusing on smaller spread out narratives across the galaxy helps flesh out the Mass Effect universe as a whole. Most of the loyalty missions explore not only the cast directly, but also the world they inhabit. The first game set up this brand new universe, Mass Effect 2 is where this carefully constructed setting really starts to feel organic and real.

[malres]

Synriah wrote...

Puff!! Guys I'm tired while I was reading most of the comments. But some of them made me angry and others just made me laugh. All I'll say if you didn't like story, DON'T COMPLAIN. Don't buy the next game and stop playing this one. Story is great. It's much more better than SW. Because of that comparing I'll start to hate SW. But I love it since my childhood. And I'm happy ME universe doesn't look like its universe. It was much more fantasy based than sci-fi. Anyhow I've played first game twice and I'm still playing my third playthrough. I've finished ME2 twice and I'll start third one after I complete in ME1. I'm reading Revelation and I've read Redemptions. Everything fits perfectly. I wouldn't want that things happen differently in both of the games. I've played that both games for hours without sleep, without eating anything. And in both of them I've tasted movie flavor. I've played BG1, BG2, NWN, KOTOR, DA:O etc. I love Bioware. I have respect for their choices. ME series are the best series they've got. After that KOTOR series and then BG series come. Everybody has their own opinion, I have full respect for that. But show respect us who bought, played and loved game. If you didn't like it nobody is enforcing you to play or buy these games. But in my opinion it's the best game of the year.

Well, I do have full respect for your opinion. If you like the story of ME2, that's ok.

You might want to read the first post of this thread, though, because this is actually about people "not getting it" when they criticize the lack of an overarching plot. As far as I am concerned, that's a clear challenge for an argument-based debate about the plot of ME2. Why shouldn't we be allowed to voice our opinionis when our expectations have been failed? Just because yours haven't? The fact that you play a game three times in a row suggests that you're not in it for the story anyways. (Which is perfectly ok.)

I bother to write any of this because I like Mass Effect as much as you do. ME1 was an incredibly impressive game with a hard-SF concept story so well thought out and so well told that it could stand next to conceptual SF masterpieces such as Ringworld or Gateway.
The story of ME2 doesn't do this justice in any way. After finishing the game, I felt a lot like "Well, this wasn't too bad, but not quite satisfying. Well, the next part might still fix it."
Just that that was exactly what I thought about Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, Dead Man's Chest and Matrix Reloaded, and we all know how that turned out.

Modifié par malres, 17 février 2010 - 04:51 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Daeion wrote...

How relevant can the characters be if they can all die?  You know that BW is going to do the same thing they did with the ME cast to the ME2 cast, i.e. small cameos.\\

We really don't. By all accounts, the third game is going to be where Bioware pulls all the decisions we made in the first and second game together. I will bet you that most (if not all) of the joinable squaddies in ME3 are composed of whoever is left over at the end of 1 and 2.

[ZennExile]

ForceXev wrote...

Ajspeed wrote...

Just reading the title of the Thread all i need to say is Play the first one should clear things up for you

And I hope you might learn that only reading the title of the thread makes you sound clueless.

This is only true if the content of the thread doesn't inherently make you dumber for ingesting it.  In this case you can suffer mental disfunction if your not careful when reading through this thread so it might be better for some to avoid reading it and just comment based on theri own thoughts and ideas without suffering a blow to their mental faculties first.

[TheShady]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Don't like your suggestions, sounds like most other games out there and would result in the usual linearity of gameplay.  Also, 'developing' the reapers motivations would mean putting those motivations in terms that we can understand, which would lead to the same thing as what happened to the borg when the borg queen was introduced (worst thing ever, destroyed the borg's mystique and replaced it with a human "Ragh me evil villain!").  Focusing it just on the reapers would get boring quick, and wouldn't give us the chance to experience the ME universe like it currently does, which I actually find more fascinating.

So you'd rather have the Reapers be empty shells whose only purpose is to destroy everything and we never find out anything about them simply to ensure the "mystery"? The mystery can drag on to the very end of ME3. In ME1 they were introduced, in ME2 they should have been deepened, in ME3 they are concluded/understood. If you don't give any sort of information or involvement however, they are simply nothing but big things that kill things. It's too late for them to be anything else now. In ME3, any Reaper-info will almost certainly feel rushed or be incomplete/stereotypical.
And what else to concentrate on but the fight against the Reapers? Last time I checked that's what Shepard's story is about... We don't have to face an actual Reaper every single time. But I didn't feel their presence or the threat they pose at all in ME2. I didn't even feel the threat the Collectors pose... After all, they are very very beatable with a single team of 3 guys, their ships are destroyable or routable with 2 guns and Mordin already came up with a way to stop their swarms.  Doesn't sound like a really awesome unbeatable threat to me. Also, they defend their main base with one ship that can be destroyed with an upgrade that costs 50000 Irridium or whatever.

And you probably didn't read my post properly. There's plenty of chance to explore the ME-universe. Even more so.