79 réponses à ce sujet

[Gerse1]

hmm, well actually Lazarus was the man Jesus brought back from the dead...so unless we are prepared to now say Cerberus=Jesus I think we can assume that a lot of the names aren't arbitrary but at the same time some of them will only go so deep.



Also, I have never heard of a connection between the word "Merovingian" and the underworld. Thought Merovingian was the royal dynasty in France in the dark ages?

[TXF Entropy]

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

Yes, Christ is said to have resurrected Lazarus after being dead for days.  Following this reasoning, either the Illusive Man or Miranda (or Cerberus as a whole) is Jesus and Shepard is Lazarus.

Edit:  Actually, I would say the Illusive Man would be Yahweh and Miranda is Jesus.  Jesus was merely the agent of Yahweh's power, as Miranda was the enforcer of the Illusive Man's will.

Modifié par TXF Entropy, 14 février 2010 - 05:48 .

[OptimusAlex]

Crimson Sound wrote...

Wait...so the Geth are Christian? Well that explains the "Heretics" and there lack of a need for gravity...

In all seriousness, good job on the find.

about the whole gravity thing........magnet feet,


thats all i got though

[Rhofan]

I thought other Reapers were making fun of him for his name, that´s why he left them.

[prof-waffles]

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

yes, you're correct. the significance of lazarus was that he's the first guy in the bible to rise from the dead from jesus to show his disciples that in death he knows compasion after witnessing the greif over lazarus's death and he cares enough to raise him etc...

[prof-waffles]

Rhofan wrote...

I thought other Reapers were making fun of him for his name, that´s why he left them.

the geth never refer to "I", only "we". they call the geth that you fight "walking platforms" as nothing more than conduits for a program that's part of the whole. in essence, legion is all the geth just represented through a terminal, itself.

[Rhofan]

prof-waffles wrote...

Rhofan wrote...

I thought other Reapers were making fun of him for his name, that´s why he left them.

the geth never refer to "I", only "we". they call the geth that you fight "walking platforms" as nothing more than conduits for a program that's part of the whole. in essence, legion is all the geth just represented through a terminal, itself.

What? I am talking about Sovereign and other Reapers, not Geth. 

[Weskerr]

TXF Entropy wrote...

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

Yes, Christ is said to have resurrected Lazarus after being dead for days.  Following this reasoning, either the Illusive Man or Miranda (or Cerberus as a whole) is Jesus and Shepard is Lazarus.


Edit:  Actually, I would say the Illusive Man would be Yahweh and Miranda is Jesus.  Jesus was merely the agent of Yahweh's power, as Miranda was the enforcer of the Illusive Man's will.

This is an example of over-analysis. It's called the Lazarus Project simply because Shepard is being brought back to life, as Lazarus himself was. That's the only connection between the biblical tale and the project.

Modifié par Weskerr, 14 février 2010 - 11:55 .

[gotthammer]

hehehe....Cerberus: the 3-headed dog guarding the passage into Hades/hell

(i prefer it spelled as 'Kerberos', tho'...sounds nicer, methinks. Hehehe, Kerberos Panzerjaeger )

[Gill Kaiser]

prof-waffles wrote...

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

yes, you're correct. the significance of lazarus was that he's the first guy in the bible to rise from the dead from jesus to show his disciples that in death he knows compasion after witnessing the greif over lazarus's death and he cares enough to raise him etc...

In this case it's the Illusive Man/Cerberus who named the project, not Bioware. I mean, technically they did, but what I mean is that it's a perfectly valid name for a project to bring someone back from the dead, and TIM would have specifically named it in reference to the Bible.

[TheShady]

Myrmedus wrote...

TheShady wrote...

"Gefühl ist alles, Name ist Schall und Rauch." - Faust, der Tragödie erster Teil (Johann Wolfgang v. Goethe)

Basically meaning "Emotion is everything, name is noise and smoke."

What I mean is: Wouldn't read too much into it. It's easy to slap open a famous book, pick a random name and try to figure out some connection/meaning. Metal Gear Solid is full of that stuff and none of it means anything. If they name other Reapers Dante, Hyde and Holden, they're still just Reapers and what the Bioware writers make of them.

Yes they are, but writers tend to name their characters meaningfully. Consider:

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

Another example might be the Matrix:

Neo: New; shows a new One.
Morpheus: God of dreams, sleep and awakening; awakens Neo to the real world.
Merovingian: Hades; Lord of the Underworld in that he authoratively deals in the program underworld of the Matrix.
Persephone: Bride of Hades; obvious if you've watched the films, she's the partner of the Merovingian.

etc. I could go on and on. I realize those examples above are a different trilogy but they're just one of literally thousands of examples of literature writers naming their characters in appropriation to their relevance and role in the plot.

There are lots of references in ME and they are not only whimsical connections but actually named appropriately. Nazara as a name is no coincidence, especially as the meaning of the name is very similar to what Harbinger continually preaches throughout ME2 (in addition to the revelation of the last boss).

All I'm saying is that it doesn't matter much for the character. It's a reference, sure, but nothing else. What matters is what is made of the character in the story.
I'm just very unimpressed with the whole "name means something" thing in any fictional work. Isn't it better to just name them something you just randomly thought of and have the character become so popular that it becomes something that is referenced in other works itself? Like... say... Lolita (don't know if the novel coined the term or if it was in use before) or Big Brother.
People often think such references are brilliant or genius while all it is is picking a popular name and seeking some highly incomplete connection.

Also, Shepard for example... it's so overused. (Commander Shepard - ME; Adrian Shephard - HL:OF; Jack Shephard - Lost; General Shepherd - MW2)



I'm not trying to spoil anyone's discussion or analysing fun. I just don't think those name-connections are of any quality or importance at all.

[armass]

Someone already said this but I think the fact that the programs in Sovereign called themselves Nazara means that Nazara was the name of the race from which Sovereign was made from.

[Myrmedus]

TheShady wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

TheShady wrote...

"Gefühl ist alles, Name ist Schall und Rauch." - Faust, der Tragödie erster Teil (Johann Wolfgang v. Goethe)

Basically meaning "Emotion is everything, name is noise and smoke."

What I mean is: Wouldn't read too much into it. It's easy to slap open a famous book, pick a random name and try to figure out some connection/meaning. Metal Gear Solid is full of that stuff and none of it means anything. If they name other Reapers Dante, Hyde and Holden, they're still just Reapers and what the Bioware writers make of them.

Yes they are, but writers tend to name their characters meaningfully. Consider:

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

Another example might be the Matrix:

Neo: New; shows a new One.
Morpheus: God of dreams, sleep and awakening; awakens Neo to the real world.
Merovingian: Hades; Lord of the Underworld in that he authoratively deals in the program underworld of the Matrix.
Persephone: Bride of Hades; obvious if you've watched the films, she's the partner of the Merovingian.

etc. I could go on and on. I realize those examples above are a different trilogy but they're just one of literally thousands of examples of literature writers naming their characters in appropriation to their relevance and role in the plot.

There are lots of references in ME and they are not only whimsical connections but actually named appropriately. Nazara as a name is no coincidence, especially as the meaning of the name is very similar to what Harbinger continually preaches throughout ME2 (in addition to the revelation of the last boss).

All I'm saying is that it doesn't matter much for the character. It's a reference, sure, but nothing else. What matters is what is made of the character in the story.
I'm just very unimpressed with the whole "name means something" thing in any fictional work. Isn't it better to just name them something you just randomly thought of and have the character become so popular that it becomes something that is referenced in other works itself? Like... say... Lolita (don't know if the novel coined the term or if it was in use before) or Big Brother.
People often think such references are brilliant or genius while all it is is picking a popular name and seeking some highly incomplete connection.

Also, Shepard for example... it's so overused. (Commander Shepard - ME; Adrian Shephard - HL:OF; Jack Shephard - Lost; General Shepherd - MW2)



I'm not trying to spoil anyone's discussion or analysing fun. I just don't think those name-connections are of any quality or importance at all.

Of course what matters is how the character is made in the story but what you seem to be forgetting is the fact this discussion is about a character we know very little of in the story (Sovereign) so we can't comment much on the character itself yet until ME3 possibly. Also, when people debate about Sovereign they're also debating about the entire Reaper faction so given that people are trying to think of what the Reapers stand for, revealing name connections can often provide insight into a character's potential role in the story and by extension into the Reapers.

And it's funny you should reference Lolita because this is another example of a name that's meaning closely resembles the character - it's a Russian slang for 'nymphet'.

Edit: Oh and yes, sorry I was wrong about the literal events surrounding Lazarus.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 14 février 2010 - 01:52 .

[Myrmedus]

gotthammer wrote...

hehehe....Cerberus: the 3-headed dog guarding the passage into Hades/hell
(i prefer it spelled as 'Kerberos', tho'...sounds nicer, methinks. Hehehe, Kerberos Panzerjaeger )

Again, another name connection in ME2 - both TIM and Renegade Shepard's eyes have a triangular shape with three dots, corresponding to Cerberus the 3-headed dog.

Gerse1 wrote...

Also, I have never heard of a connection between the word "Merovingian" and the underworld. Thought Merovingian was the royal dynasty in France in the dark ages?

I didn't phrase my post very well I don't think...the significance of the Merovingian in The Matrix being Hades isn't to do with his name it was meant to illustrate Persephone's connection between her role and her name. The reason he's called the Merovingian is precisely what you reference since he's a Frenchman and is clothed similarly to a Merovingian (with the exception of the hair). However, it's also a common myth that the Merovingians descended from Christ and it's fitting since a connection between Neo and Merovingian is hinted at multiple times in The Matrix Trilogy.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 14 février 2010 - 02:42 .

[TheShady]

Myrmedus wrote...

Of course what matters is how the character is made in the story but what you seem to be forgetting is the fact this discussion is about a character we know very little of in the story (Sovereign) so we can't comment much on the character itself yet until ME3 possibly. Also, when people debate about Sovereign they're also debating about the entire Reaper faction so given that people are trying to think of what the Reapers stand for, revealing name connections can often provide insight into a character's potential role in the story and by extension into the Reapers.

Ok, that's true, though.  I personally don't get any kicks out of analysing names. As I said, go right ahead.  I'm waiting for Bioware to hopefully tell me plenty of the Reapers. 
 I

And it's funny you should reference Lolita because this is another example of a name that's meaning closely resembles the character - it's a Russian slang for 'nymphet'.

I just threwLolita out there as a possible example of how a term is coined. It's definitely used for the type of character that was portrayed in every-day language now. So if they call Shepard ... Bruno or Gretchen, and 2 years from now people start calling the act of punching a TV reporter "pulling a Bruno/Gretchen", then ME really did a great job.

[Jzadek72]

That's really interesting. I love biblical references despite being atheist. They always give a world a sense of scope.

[Myrmedus]

TheShady wrote...

Ok, that's true, though.  I personally don't get any kicks out of analysing names. As I said, go right ahead.  I'm waiting for Bioware to hopefully tell me plenty of the Reapers. 

Yeah I personally like it because it's cool when you play the next game to either find your ideas were right or to be utterly surprised by the arc they chose to take, uttering: "I never saw that coming!"

I find I only really get that when I'm thinking about the plot beforehand, whether it be as the story progresses or before the game is out.

I just threwLolita out there as a possible example of how a term is coined. It's definitely used for the type of character that was portrayed in every-day language now. So if they call Shepard ... Bruno or Gretchen, and 2 years from now people start calling the act of punching a TV reporter "pulling a Bruno/Gretchen", then ME really did a great job.

At least Shepard is a widely used Western name anyway .

I personally think BW did a great job of giving the names subliminal meaning while still making them look like real-life names. Miranda is a great example as it's a very down-to-earth name yet it highlights lots of parallels between ME Miranda and a character in Shakespeare's "The Tempest" called Miranda also.

[Snowraptor]

Is it just me, or does every game out thier always have its enemys named after saints from the bible, i find it suspicios and annoying, look at halo, all the names in ther felt so dull, colorful game, but retarded names

[Snowraptor]

TXF Entropy wrote...

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

Yes, Christ is said to have resurrected Lazarus after being dead for days.  Following this reasoning, either the Illusive Man or Miranda (or Cerberus as a whole) is Jesus and Shepard is Lazarus.

Edit:  Actually, I would say the Illusive Man would be Yahweh and Miranda is Jesus.  Jesus was merely the agent of Yahweh's power, as Miranda was the enforcer of the Illusive Man's will.

You could also just call him GOD, so you dont confuse people

[sodacatkun]

Niddy' wrote...

I'm also a fire truck.

i'm also an autobot

[Vagula]

I would have prefered if Sovereign had stayed as Sovereign. I don't see why such a being would care about such trivial labels.

[Rhofan]

Yeah, if that wasn´t his real name, who came up with "Harbringer"? Collectors?

[holyfrog77]

Huh.

Some neat observations in this thread. It'll be fun to see how Bioware expands on all of this in ME3.

[PatchWorks]

Nazara isn't necessarily his real name either. It's just what he goes by to the geth.



Sovereign in fact refers to itself as Sovereign on Virmire, so the name Sovereign is not just a name Saren alone used to refer to that specific Reaper. The Reaper used that name to refer to itself too.



Nazara and Sovereign are just names. Nazara, as a title, probably has some sort of signifigance to the geth inasmuch as Sovereign, as a title, had significance to Saren.



The other Reapers may not even bother naming each other when dealing with other Reapers. They probably just say "Hey you!"

[Ooga600]

well that makes sense if it means "watch, guard, keep."



"I am the vanguard of your destruction."