79 réponses à ce sujet

[Ooga600]

Snowraptor wrote...

Is it just me, or does every game out thier always have its enemys named after saints from the bible, i find it suspicios and annoying, look at halo, all the names in ther felt so dull, colorful game, but retarded names

er... just because there are prophets and they're called the convenant doesn't mean it has anything to do with the bible.

[Axis Swordarm]

Goryuu wrote...

Western cultures dont have as much lore as japan of china. So it's rather hard to think of something. Theres not a lot of originality these days.

Norse pantheon, Roman, Greek and even the millions of side stories would like you to investigate them instead of assuming monotheism is the only history in the West.

Read up on the War of the Roses and follow that with the Armada or Agincourt, those are just British examples.  We're ram jammed with absolutely fascinating history and myths.

[Lightice_av]

Sovereign in fact refers to itself as Sovereign on Virmire, so the name Sovereign is not just a name Saren alone used to refer to that specific Reaper. The Reaper used that name to refer to itself too.

To me it sounded like the Sovereign was using this title as an adjective rather than proper noun. It's describing what it is compared to the mere mortals, rather than telling its name.



The name "Nazara" probably has deliberate Biblical undertones; there are many in the games, after all. It still shouldn't be taken too literally. Anyway, I don't think that the name was solely made for the benefit of the Geth - they aren't exactly big on names themselves, calling the Reapers aptly "Old Machines", and lets not even go to "We are Geth".



Perhaps the name refers to the species it was made of? If the Human-Reaper had been finished, it might have been simply named Man, or something similar.

[Gerse1]

TheShady wrote...



Also, Shepard for example... it's so overused. (Commander Shepard - ME; Adrian Shephard - HL:OF; Jack Shephard - Lost; General Shepherd - MW2)



I'm not trying to spoil anyone's discussion or analysing fun. I just don't think those name-connections are of any quality or importance at all.

Good points on the over-use of "Shepherd" in TV, film, etc. for any sort of "leader" character.   I agree it's overused, but at least, like "Miranda," it's still a fairly common surname in real life too.  Some other "shepherd" allusions I haven't seen mentioned yet are shepherd = frequent metaphor for God/Jesus in the Bible as leader/savior of human race (and I suppose technically the entire universe) (so back to biblical allusions again),

plus Alan ShepARD, as it's spelled in ME = first American in space.  Which is fitting considering that, imo, the Alliance military and characters and even Shepard him/herself have always seemed Americanesque (kinda like the "marines" in Avatar), with his/her go-get-'em attitude.

[TXF Entropy]

Weskerr wrote...

TXF Entropy wrote...

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

Yes, Christ is said to have resurrected Lazarus after being dead for days.  Following this reasoning, either the Illusive Man or Miranda (or Cerberus as a whole) is Jesus and Shepard is Lazarus.


Edit:  Actually, I would say the Illusive Man would be Yahweh and Miranda is Jesus.  Jesus was merely the agent of Yahweh's power, as Miranda was the enforcer of the Illusive Man's will.

This is an example of over-analysis. It's called the Lazarus Project simply because Shepard is being brought back to life, as Lazarus himself was. That's the only connection between the biblical tale and the project.

That was my point.  When you try to read too much into a name, you end up with Miranda being Jesus and the Illusive Man being God.

[AMmayhem]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

Damn you bioware, not even names are simple in those games.

OMG! They have good writers!  Someone paid attention in english/literature classes?!

[TXF Entropy]

Snowraptor wrote...

TXF Entropy wrote...

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

Yes, Christ is said to have resurrected Lazarus after being dead for days.  Following this reasoning, either the Illusive Man or Miranda (or Cerberus as a whole) is Jesus and Shepard is Lazarus.

Edit:  Actually, I would say the Illusive Man would be Yahweh and Miranda is Jesus.  Jesus was merely the agent of Yahweh's power, as Miranda was the enforcer of the Illusive Man's will.

You could also just call him GOD, so you dont confuse people

When treating the Bible as literature, it is proper to refer to the characters' names in a secular way.  We call the Islamic God Allah to avoid confusion with the Judeo-Christian God, even though Allah translates as God, so we should call the Judeo-Christian God Yahweh, even though Yahweh likewise translates as God, to be fair.

[Rhofan]

TXF Entropy wrote...

Snowraptor wrote...

TXF Entropy wrote...

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

Yes, Christ is said to have resurrected Lazarus after being dead for days.  Following this reasoning, either the Illusive Man or Miranda (or Cerberus as a whole) is Jesus and Shepard is Lazarus.

Edit:  Actually, I would say the Illusive Man would be Yahweh and Miranda is Jesus.  Jesus was merely the agent of Yahweh's power, as Miranda was the enforcer of the Illusive Man's will.

You could also just call him GOD, so you dont confuse people

When treating the Bible as literature, it is proper to refer to the characters' names in a secular way.  We call the Islamic God Allah to avoid confusion with the Judeo-Christian God, even though Allah translates as God, so we should call the Judeo-Christian God Yahweh, even though Yahweh likewise translates as God, to be fair.

Actually, nobody knows what "Yahweh" means - "Elohim" is the Hebrew term for "God". Also, practically there´s no reason to make dinstinction between Judeo - christian and islamic terms for God.

Modifié par Rhofan, 14 février 2010 - 07:27 .

[Kusy]

"I Am that I Am"



Anyways, some of you guys missed the point. The fact that "Nazareth" and "Nazara" apears in the bible doesn't mean the character's name was borrowed from there. It was taken from Hebrew. And again, what I did was not discovering what Sovereign was, we already knoew he was a vanguard of our destruction, guard, observer and all that. I simply checked up on where the name had it's orgins. It's common for game developers and writers in general to name characters in old languages, dialects, in refference to other books, religion and sometimes even regular words.



The most dumbed down example of this are Sith from the Star Wars univers - Vader = invader, Sidious = insidious, Traya = betrayal, Maul doesn't even nead explanation just like Tyranus and Bane.

[GenericPlayer2]

The Reapers, and all their machinations, do seem like the work of Gods - omnipotent and eternal. Shepard's struggle against them could be seen as Hercules rebelling against the Gods. Will ME3 reveal that Sovereign or Harbinger once took human form and seduced Shep's mom 9 months before he was born?

[TheShady]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

It's common for game developers and writers in general to name characters in old languages, dialects, in refference to other books, religion and sometimes even regular words.

The most dumbed down example of this are Sith from the Star Wars univers - Vader = invader, Sidious = insidious, Traya = betrayal, Maul doesn't even nead explanation just like Tyranus and Bane.

Mr. Hyde. lol

[Lightice_av]

The Reapers, and all their machinations, do seem like the work of Gods - omnipotent and eternal. Shepard's struggle against them could be seen as Hercules rebelling against the Gods.

Er, the one who rebelled against the gods was Prometheus. Heracles was trying to become a god. Isn't nitpicking fun?

Ofcourse Mass Effect is still more a light version of an eldritch abomination story than a Biblical (or Greek) myth...

[TheShady]

Lightice_av wrote...

The Reapers, and all their machinations, do seem like the work of Gods - omnipotent and eternal. Shepard's struggle against them could be seen as Hercules rebelling against the Gods.

Er, the one who rebelled against the gods was Prometheus. Heracles was trying to become a god. Isn't nitpicking fun?
Ofcourse Mass Effect is still more a light version of an eldritch abomination story than a Biblical (or Greek) myth...

He said Hercules.
I'm pretty damned sure there were at least 34890 figures of Greek mythology that tried to rebel against the gods. The olympic gods themselves rebelled, even.

[Kusy]

[quote]GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Hercules rebelling against the Gods.
[quote]

Where did that happen? I can't remember.

[durasteel]

Actually, Yehoshua (translated as "Jesus") wasn't from Nazareth.  He was of a sect of Essenes called the Nazoreans, translated as "Nazarene" and assumed later to mean "of or from Nazareth."   It comes from the Hebrew word Notzrim which means "guardians" or "watchers."

The Essenes were known for their emphasis on purification rituals, among other things.  Perhaps the reapers periodically perform what is, to them, a ritual cleansing of the galaxy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In addition to what the op said, Nazara is clearly a Semitic word (Western Semitic to be precise). In Arabic, "Nazar" means sight. Variants of it also mean guard or keep.

[Jimmy2011]

im kinda happy with my lack of a very broad vocabulary when playing ME. Like throughout me 1 i was totally expecting the conduit to be some uber weapon that wipes everything out....turns out it is just a gateway to the citadel, which if i had any understanding of what conduit's actual definition was i would have totally expected that throughout the game and wouldnt have been shocked by that revelation.

Modifié par Jimmy2011, 14 février 2010 - 11:36 .

[TXF Entropy]

Rhofan wrote...

TXF Entropy wrote...

Snowraptor wrote...

TXF Entropy wrote...

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

Yes, Christ is said to have resurrected Lazarus after being dead for days.  Following this reasoning, either the Illusive Man or Miranda (or Cerberus as a whole) is Jesus and Shepard is Lazarus.

Edit:  Actually, I would say the Illusive Man would be Yahweh and Miranda is Jesus.  Jesus was merely the agent of Yahweh's power, as Miranda was the enforcer of the Illusive Man's will.

You could also just call him GOD, so you dont confuse people

When treating the Bible as literature, it is proper to refer to the characters' names in a secular way.  We call the Islamic God Allah to avoid confusion with the Judeo-Christian God, even though Allah translates as God, so we should call the Judeo-Christian God Yahweh, even though Yahweh likewise translates as God, to be fair.

Actually, nobody knows what "Yahweh" means - "Elohim" is the Hebrew term for "God". Also, practically there´s no reason to make dinstinction between Judeo - christian and islamic terms for God.

I stand corrected on the Hebrew word for God issue.  Yahweh is actually "Elohim's" personal name.  Thanks.

I am not saying that the distinction is necessary in this particular discussion.  I am saying that referring to the God of the Christian Testaments as Yahweh (or Jehovah, whatever) is how an unbiased observer would refer to the character and fits the tone of the discussion.

Edit:  To get back on topic, I like what somebody said about The Illusive Man choosing the name specifically because it would make him God in that interpretation.  I'm sure Bioware did not choose the name "Lazarus Project" for that reason, but it certainly fits.

Modifié par TXF Entropy, 15 février 2010 - 01:04 .

[TXF Entropy]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

"I Am that I Am"

Anyways, some of you guys missed the point. The fact that "Nazareth" and "Nazara" apears in the bible doesn't mean the character's name was borrowed from there. It was taken from Hebrew. And again, what I did was not discovering what Sovereign was, we already knoew he was a vanguard of our destruction, guard, observer and all that. I simply checked up on where the name had it's orgins. It's common for game developers and writers in general to name characters in old languages, dialects, in refference to other books, religion and sometimes even regular words.

The most dumbed down example of this are Sith from the Star Wars univers - Vader = invader, Sidious = insidious, Traya = betrayal, Maul doesn't even nead explanation just like Tyranus and Bane.

Darth Vader is, I think, Danish for "Dark Father", but my memory is rusty.  Vater is German for "Father".  Palpatine probably comes from the Latin "Palpatus", from the verb meaning "to coax".  "Kamino" comes from "amino", the building blocks of proteins that are strongly connected with DNA (and hence cloning).  They are not all as simple as you'd think, with names like Maul excepted.

[Moogliepie]

Gerse1 wrote...

hmm, well actually Lazarus was the man Jesus brought back from the dead...so unless we are prepared to now say Cerberus=Jesus I think we can assume that a lot of the names aren't arbitrary but at the same time some of them will only go so deep.

Also, I have never heard of a connection between the word "Merovingian" and the underworld. Thought Merovingian was the royal dynasty in France in the dark ages?

Yeah, it was just the Wachowskis brothers cashing in on the DaVinci code popularity at the time. Religious allegories can be fun, adding a bit of mystery, but then they can turn into complete disappointing crap like Matrix revolutions and the season finale of Battlestar Galactica. I hope they don't go too far with these religious references.

[Moogliepie]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

"I Am that I Am"

Anyways, some of you guys missed the point. The fact that "Nazareth" and "Nazara" apears in the bible doesn't mean the character's name was borrowed from there. It was taken from Hebrew. And again, what I did was not discovering what Sovereign was, we already knoew he was a vanguard of our destruction, guard, observer and all that. I simply checked up on where the name had it's orgins. It's common for game developers and writers in general to name characters in old languages, dialects, in refference to other books, religion and sometimes even regular words.

The most dumbed down example of this are Sith from the Star Wars univers - Vader = invader, Sidious = insidious, Traya = betrayal, Maul doesn't even nead explanation just like Tyranus and Bane.

"'Darth' is a variation of dark. And 'Vader' is a variation of father. So it's basically Dark Father. All the names have history, but sometimes I make mistakes -- Luke was originally going to be called Luke Starkiller, but then I realized that wasn't appropriate for the character. It was appropriate for Anakin, but not his son. I said, 'Wait, we can't weigh this down too much -- he's the one that redeems him.'" - George Lucas, Rolling Stone, June 2005

[Rhofan]

Please, I don´t want to star another anti-Lucas rant but it´s so silly for him to pretend stuff like this wen "Darth Vader" was originally name of quite minor character who clearly isn´t father of anyone.

[ZeroDotZero]

armass wrote...

Someone already said this but I think the fact that the programs in Sovereign called themselves Nazara means that Nazara was the name of the race from which Sovereign was made from.

This is what I thought of. I guess that Bioware put in 'Nazara' for a reason beyond an obscure biblical reference. The Nazara were probably an ancient sentient race that were processed to create Sovereign. The Human-Reaper at the end would have probably had files called 'Human', even thought it would have called itself Direct-Control or something.

[vader da slayer]

keginkc wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Shepard: Is surely going to be the shepard of the galactic efforts against the Reapers.
Lazarus Project: Lazarus was the Ressurection of Christ, our saviour. Shepard is perceived as being the galaxy's saviour.
Legion: Obvious.

I'm a little out of touch with the new testament, being an atheist the last 20 years or so, but wasn't lazarus someone resurrected by jesus, rather than being a reference to jesus?  My admittedly rusty memory is telling me so.

Lazarus was the resurection of a good friend of Jesus by that same name. in this sense it is probably more accurate to say that Cerberus thinks of themselves as Christ while Shepard is Lazarus and there by Cerberus is the Savior of the universe since they brought shepard back to save it.

[LordShrike]

Awesome find! Thanks for this!

YEAH, I TOTALLY AGREE. ALSO, I MADE THIS SHELL JOIN THE REAPER GROUP BECAUSE OF THIS. HAHA. HARBRINGER.