105 réponses à ce sujet

[LBXZero]

I had something similar to this. The first time I played, I did Jack's loyalty first, and eventually Miranda's loyalty mission. I was able to go through the fight scene with the paragon option. The second time, I did Miranda's loyalty before Jack's loyalty. Then, I could not make the choice, but my paragon level was lower, so I suspected that. But with even near 100% paragon, I could never talk to Miranda afterwords with the paragon option.



But because the parameters may be different between the two dialogs, that does not mean it is not bugged. I can suspect there were different scripts for the fight after Jack's loyalty mission depending on if you did Miranda's loyalty first and how well it went. Now if that script was decided to be removed, but got compiled in on accident, issues can occur that were not expected and may not match testing platform.

[tortuga8831]

The only reason why I'm saying that it's not a bug and that it's because the system most likely changes depending on how you play the game(what's said/when you do stuff) is because someone who works at bioware aka Kim Stolz said that it's not. And Kim doesn't want to say how the system works because it's a complex system that runs underneath regular gameplay and to completely explain it in the forums would be confusing.

[Im Too Legendary]

tortuga8831 wrote...

Has the thought ever occurred that maybe they built the game to change the requirements needed to pass those persuasion checks? Like if the first time you did jacks loyalty mission first then the second time you'll need to do mirandas first, something like that.

Apparently you can not read.

I appreciate you trying to help, but please read before commenting.

As I have stated, I have done everything exactly the same as my first playthrough (which I had no problem at all with), and even then some.

I even went as far as to do 2 more playthroughs, where I saved the aforementioned missions for last (in case I needed more paragon points and did not realize I did not have enough) and did the same missions first, to no avail.

Obviously something is wrong here, because it makes no sense to me by doing the following:

1st playthrough, there was no way I could of had as much Paragon points as I did in my 2nd & 3rd playthrough, yet I was still able to do the Paragon options for Miranda's & Jack's confrontation, The persuasion of Zaeed for loyalty if you chose to save the refinery, and the chance to use the Paragon option for Samars loyalty mission when talking to Morinth.

The 2nd & 3rd playthrough, I beat the missions in the EXACT same order as I did my first playthrough. Every talk with a person I could do in order to gain more Paragon points I did to no avail. I even saved those very 2 missions for last, and when that didn't work, I did those 2 missions first. Both of those ideas did not work.

Now can you honestly tell me that there still isn't a problem? Not even slightly?

[Im Too Legendary]

tortuga8831 wrote...

The only reason why I'm saying that it's not a bug and that it's because the system most likely changes depending on how you play the game(what's said/when you do stuff) is because someone who works at bioware aka Kim Stolz said that it's not. And Kim doesn't want to say how the system works because it's a complex system that runs underneath regular gameplay and to completely explain it in the forums would be confusing.

I already spoke to Kim via Private message. Apparently something must of caught his eye, or he is aware of my more or less sincerity and anguish in the matter, for he  has brought this very problem up to the creator of the "Paragon/Renegade System". As such, I was told I will get a PM pertaining to the problem.

Modifié par Im Too Legendary, 21 février 2010 - 10:58 .

[Olwaye]

Question as any of your playthrough started a romance with either Jack or Miranda, or even just talk to them after their loyalty mission?



My first playthtough (male shep) I did Jack loyalty mission first and then started her romance. When I did Miranda loyalty mission I was at around 80% Parangon, I had to choose one of them.



Second playthrough(Fem shep) I did Jack and Miranda missions one after the other( Miranda's first) without speaking with any of them afterwards, I was at 30% Parangon, no problem for settling the catfight.



Maybe if you get closer to one of them you loose the ability to settle it peacefully. Which from a storytelling point of view would make sense.

By the way I finished the first playthrough without Miranda Loyalty and did not loose any crew members.

[tortuga8831]

Im Too Legendary wrote...

tortuga8831 wrote...

Has the thought ever occurred that maybe they built the game to change the requirements needed to pass those persuasion checks? Like if the first time you did jacks loyalty mission first then the second time you'll need to do mirandas first, something like that.

Apparently you can not read.

I appreciate you trying to help, but please read before commenting.

As I have stated, I have done everything exactly the same as my first playthrough (which I had no problem at all with), and even then some.

I even went as far as to do 2 more playthroughs, where I saved the aforementioned missions for last (in case I needed more paragon points and did not realize I did not have enough) and did the same missions first, to no avail.

Obviously something is wrong here, because it makes no sense to me by doing the following:

1st playthrough, there was no way I could of had as much Paragon points as I did in my 2nd & 3rd playthrough, yet I was still able to do the Paragon options for Miranda's & Jack's confrontation, The persuasion of Zaeed for loyalty if you chose to save the refinery, and the chance to use the Paragon option for Samars loyalty mission when talking to Morinth.

The 2nd & 3rd playthrough, I beat the missions in the EXACT same order as I did my first playthrough. Every talk with a person I could do in order to gain more Paragon points I did to no avail. I even saved those very 2 missions for last, and when that didn't work, I did those 2 missions first. Both of those ideas did not work.

Now can you honestly tell me that there still isn't a problem? Not even slightly?

Wow, apparently you're the one who can't read. You're saying that you're doing everything in the same exact order in your playthroughs, and when that doesn't work you're doing everything in the same exact order but saving those 2 missions until last. Now what I'm saying, as you haven't mentioned that you've done this yet, is to flip the order that you've done those 2 missions, aka you've said you did jacks second, try doing hers first.

[LBXZero]

The Paragon/Renegade system is not complicated. I have a theory of what is wrong, but it makes a testing request.



Can someone play Miranda's Loyalty mission and fail to get Miranda's loyalty before completing Jack's Loyalty mission.



If theory is correct, the fight between Miranda and Jack after Jack's loyalty mission has two scripts. The first script is Miranda not being loyal, and the second script is Miranda being loyal. The first script operates correctly as Miranda will not be loyal if you do Jack's loyalty mission prior. The second script is bugged, where Miranda is loyal. This is a very sound theory, and a possible symptom of a potentially larger issue.

[Im Too Legendary]

 

I did those 2 missions first. Both of those ideas did not work.

[Im Too Legendary]

Wow, apparently you're the one who can't read. You're saying that you're doing everything in the same exact order in your playthroughs, and when that doesn't work you're doing everything in the same exact order but saving those 2 missions until last. Now what I'm saying, as you haven't mentioned that you've done this yet, is to flip the order that you've done those 2 missions, aka you've said you did jacks second, try doing hers first.

I have nothing to say to this other than to read above.

[Recon101]

One of the options when you max out your PC's skills offers a 70% bonus to Paragon/Renegade points and the other is 100% I believe. Perhaps there are total point levels to coercion as well as the alignment indicator. Makes sense to me.

OP: All may not be lost   I had Jack survive the suicide mission despite not getting her to speak to me after that confrontation. Besides the obvious choices of the proper Eng. and team leads you need to protect non combat spec. players. Try sending one back with the crew or taking them with you for the big boss. I believe Tali and Mordin and perhaps Jack are the least suited to holding the gate. That would seriously handicap you on Insanity so you may need to redo on hardcore to get through with Tali or Mordin in the final scrap.

To clarify Jack survived an Insanity playthrough as part of the gate guard after I picked Miranda in the catfight. So it is possible.

Modifié par Recon101, 21 février 2010 - 09:59 .

[Jayce]

Some factor to consider.



*If you don't talk to both of them fully before Horizon, the check is harder.



*If your level is maxed, the check is harder.



*If you leave it too long between speaking to Miranda/Jack and doing their loyalty mission, the check is harder.



*The dialogue options you've chosen while talking to them affect the check too.

[Psychoeva02]

Ive ran into this issue everytime Ive done a playthrough with an imported ME2 profile, works with an imported ME1 profile. ME2 profiles don't carry over the paragon/renegade points from the original ME1 profile which i think is required for some dialog options.

[LBXZero]

I think everyone here is thinking too much about it.



Honestly, the system is more simple than it appears. First of all, with a finite range for Paragon/Renegade score, they can't make it harder with higher levels as it would ruin an ME2 import play.



I did a second playthrough with an ME2 character, maxed out. I did not have the paragon boost my ME1 character did. I still made every paragon choice as before, except Miranda/Jack fight, which I did Miranda's first.



Level and Time are not factors. The support rep is acting like damage control.

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

LBXZero wrote...
....
Level and Time are not factors. The support rep is acting like damage control.

You know this how?  Seriously, stating your speculation like it's fact is annoying and unhelpful.

The lone Dev comment in this thread that sheds some light on the actual system seems to indicate YOU are over simplifying how it works (they actually used the word "complex" and "confusing" to desribe it).  

Modifié par Br0th3rGr1mm, 22 février 2010 - 04:21 .

[LBXZero]

Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...

You know this how?  Seriously, stating your speculation like it's fact is annoying and unhelpful.

The lone Dev comment in this thread that sheds some light on the actual system seems to indicate YOU are over simplifying how it works (they actually used the word "complex" and "confusing" to desribe it).  

It is not my problem that you misintrepreted what I said.  My post is nothing more than a comment, thus it should be treated as nothing more than a comment.

I provided something for testing, but no one has reported a response to it.  The Devs have not commented here, just a customer rep.

[Kim Stolz]

LBXZero wrote...

Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...

You know this how?  Seriously, stating your speculation like it's fact is annoying and unhelpful.

The lone Dev comment in this thread that sheds some light on the actual system seems to indicate YOU are over simplifying how it works (they actually used the word "complex" and "confusing" to desribe it).  

It is not my problem that you misintrepreted what I said.  My post is nothing more than a comment, thus it should be treated as nothing more than a comment.

I provided something for testing, but no one has reported a response to it.  The Devs have not commented here, just a customer rep.

I Beg your Pardon?! A customer rep? Check the credits on the game.

[Recon101]

Ouch! We're just talking here and thanks for trying to help KS. Congrats on BW's highest critically revewed title ever. More where that came from. Hope the OP got that ach.

P.S. Well, I hear the DA forums are lovely this time of night!

Modifié par Recon101, 23 février 2010 - 03:29 .

[McBeath]

Don't know if this helps the OP, but is your class specific skill maxed out to give you +100% paragon/renegade or only +70%? Some people have found that by going with only +70%(to gain stronger combat abilities) they were unable to resolve those dialogs, and when the reload and changed thier points around they were able to complete them.



I for one have completed 4 playthroughs(1 veteran, 1 hardcore, 2 insanity) and have on all 4 times had full loyalty, doing Jacks mission then Legions. I made sure that my paragon was pretty high and then had the +100% bonus. Works for me.

[salarianSniper]

i beg your pardon?! thats classic. i still cant get over the fact that i haved talked to developers from the mass effect series. makes meh fell gud lol

[LBXZero]

Kim Stolz wrote...

I Beg your Pardon?! A customer rep? Check the credits on the game.

Well, I am currently 1 mission before Horizon on my current playthrough, so that will be about 25 to 30 hours of playtime which may equal a couple weeks.  Same as fully testing the possible bug in dialog options.

[Master Smurf]

Well LBX I really wouldnt worry - most of Kim's responses I have seen make him/her sound more like a rep than a dev.



I do think McBeath has the right concept but I would ask if those 3 other playthroughs were with a re-imported ME2 character - for clarification.

[Kim Stolz]

Master Smurf wrote...

Well LBX I really wouldnt worry - most of Kim's responses I have seen make him/her sound more like a rep than a dev.

I do think McBeath has the right concept but I would ask if those 3 other playthroughs were with a re-imported ME2 character - for clarification.

 He has been in sales and customer support for years. It's something you never really forget. I'm not actually offended, just thought it was funny. Since this thread has started I've checked the paragon persuades and the renegade persuades for both of those confrontations (Miranda/Jack and Legion/ Tali) They seem to work exactly how they're supposed to. I had no problem doing them with the 100% bonus and only had trouble using the paragon persuade for jack/miranda and the renegade for legion/tali with only 70% bonus.It's incredibly difficult but that's the point. It was meant to be the equivelent of the kaiden/ashley choice in ME1. Except this time there is a possibility to save both. Hopefully that puts the confusion to bed.

[The Red Winger]

Kim, Thank you for your response...I just want to verify something. The checks are designed to be harder on the second playthrough? I passed them all on the first playthrough no problem but now on the second with equivelent or higher paragon scores I cannot pass them. This is by design? I guess I'll try re allocating my points for the 100% bonus. If this is the case it seems odd that on a second playthrough you cannot maintain all the loyalties and take the combat orientated skill choice..