105 réponses à ce sujet

[Acero Azul]

 i had a problem on the second playthrough as well, first time around everyone was loyal

[LBXZero]

What I find odd is that the Paragon/Renegade meter needs to exceed the displayed meter shown on Shepard's stats screen. Noticing the impact of the skill points and potential maximum, it is fully possible to achieve 100% paragon with the 70% boost, but if that is not sufficient, then the Paragon/Renegade meters are not displaying properly, unless intended to be misleading.

[Im Too Legendary]

The Red Winger wrote...

Kim, Thank you for your response...I just want to verify something. The checks are designed to be harder on the second playthrough? I passed them all on the first playthrough no problem but now on the second with equivelent or higher paragon scores I cannot pass them. This is by design? I guess I'll try re allocating my points for the 100% bonus. If this is the case it seems odd that on a second playthrough you cannot maintain all the loyalties and take the combat orientated skill choice..

If this is true, then it would effectectively defeat the purpose of having/playing through a second playthrough. At least that is my personal view, and I'm sure a lot of other people would agree with me on this.

The Dev (KS) himself verified that on the 2nd playthrough there was a bit of trouble on the exact mission i'm talking about. Something isn't right here, or it's being overlooked

[LBXZero]

There are several issues in ME2 on using the ME2 character for a 2nd playthrough. Considering it vital to keep a choice hard sounds like a used car salesman explaining some defect as a brilliant feature.



Although the Ashley/Kaiden and Jack/Miranda choices were intended to be hard, I found Kaiden as useless in my party and an easy choice to vote off the island, and Miranda does not understand how effective of having a loss is as a learning and strengthen tool.

[The Red Winger]

just to make sure we're comparing apples to apples here....Kim, in your spot check it was on a second playthrough right?

[Harmony Remains]

I don't think it's fair for the entire community to sit around guessing as to why so many people can't pass speech challenges on their second play. Since this problem is obviously pretty severe, I think we're at least owed an explanation as to what we're all supposedly doing wrong. I find it completely ridiculous for people to have such extensive difficulty in using dialogue on their second play. If the system is truly as in tact as the developers are claiming it to be, then why is it so terrible for someone to at least explain why it is that so many people are having the exact same problems in the exact same circumstances?



Honestly, I can't imagine why anyone would care if the system retains an air of mysticism, it's a game and people are having problems. I think if we're all going to be forced to live with not being able to have full speech functionality then the developers owe us an explanation for why at the very least.

[gladstone]

Im Too Legendary wrote...

The Dev (KS) himself verified that on the 2nd playthrough there was a bit of trouble on the exact mission i'm talking about. Something isn't right here, or it's being overlooked

I think what you may be overlooking is that you get a significant experience bonus after you've completed the game once, so on your second and subsequent playthroughs, your level rises faster relative to your Paragon/Renegade bars than it did on your first playthrough. Since it seems that persuasion requirements are scaled to your level, then every persuade in your second playthrough is going to be more difficult than it was in your first if you do everything in the same order because you are always going to be at a higher level than you were the first time through.

Modifié par gladstone, 25 février 2010 - 06:47 .

[Sunyavadin]

Kim Stolz wrote...

This isn't a bug. All of the persuades you're talking about are the very hardest ones in the game.There's a lot more to the persuade system than just having a high renegade or paragon bar. I'm sorry you're upset but that's how the system was made.Gladstone and faderoots are actually pretty close to right on in this case.

So would you mind explaining why this is a repeatable case - why it is provable that  the determining factor in whether or not you can use the persuade options in this conversation is if you did Jack or Miranda's loyalty mission first?


It's in the buglist I'm maintaining and repeated testing shows that if you do Miranda's loyalty mission before you do Jack's one, you will NEVER get the options. This seems somewhat unfair, and has no real explanation for why it owuld be so.

[Olwaye]

Sunyavadin wrote...

It's in the buglist I'm maintaining and repeated testing shows that if you do Miranda's loyalty mission before you do Jack's one, you will NEVER get the options. This seems somewhat unfair, and has no real explanation for why it owuld be so.

If it's bug the bug might be elsewhere, as I said in a previous post, I did not have the Parangon/Renegade option in my first playthrough, having near full Parangon. I did Jack mission first and Miranda's just before getting Legion.

Second playthrough, I did Miranda's mission as soon as it was available and then Jack's as soon as it was available and I had the Parangon Option with just about 40% Parangon.

The main difference was my first playthrough was a male Sheppard who talked twice with Jack after her mission, the second playthrough was a female Sheppard who didn't talk to either Miranda or Jack after their missions.

[crapmonster13]

Honestly, this sounds like it could very well be a bug or at the least, poor use of triggers.



When I did a second playthrough on newgame plus, I basically went the renegade "****" route. Meaning, be as big of a douche to other characters including teammates. For example, I didn't let Miranda talk to her sister, nor did I let Jack look at the items in the room. I also waited quite a bit until I did some of the loyalty missions after unlocking.



Obviously, when forced, I did make choices accordingly that wouldn't involve me picking one over the other, i.e. Jack/Miranda dispute but regardless, I never lost loyalty to any member.



Maybe I was just lucky, but its hard to imagine that people actually actively going the paragon route and have over 90% still have trouble resolving these disputes.

[Kim Stolz]

crapmonster13 wrote...

Maybe I was just lucky, but its hard to imagine that people actually actively going the paragon route and have over 90% still have trouble resolving these disputes.

Actually that's very believable.Since so many people want the explanation of how this works I'll tell you. Don't read any further if you don't want it spoiled. There are potential paragon and renegade points throughout the game. When the user arrives in an area (ie: Omega) the game registers every single paragon or renegade decision that can be made and increases the difficulty of the persuade system based on these potential points. If the user collects all of these points (either paragon OR renegade) they break even they can almost never get ahead of the system, you can only keep apace. If the user misses these oppotunities to collect all of the points the game still keeps these points you missed so the player will actually fall behind. If the player falls behind it is very difficult and almost impossible to catch back up because everywhere you go more potential points are being mounted against you and making the persuasions more difficult. So when you arrive at the most difficult persuasions in the game where you are already at a disadvantage due to the difficulty of the persuade and these potential points that you missed stack up to make it even more difficult and then you try to paragon persuade jack and miranda which makes it even more difficult(it's easier to renegade persuade those two and paragon persuade legion and tali) you are going to fail it; not because it's a bug but because the system was made that way.

What I think a lot of people aren't realizing is that when you import an ME1 save you get a pretty major bonus to the paragon or renegade scale which makes the persuades incredibly easy. then you start an ME2 newgame + and you are working from a clean slate.

Hopefully that explains it well enough for  you. I've talked to the people who made this system and decided on the bonus for starting a newgame+ and the odds of this being changed or made easier are very, very low.
If you're confused by the explanation I gave or need some clarification please feel free to PM me. Thanks .

[Harmony Remains]

Kim Stolz wrote...

crapmonster13 wrote...

Maybe I was just lucky, but its hard to imagine that people actually actively going the paragon route and have over 90% still have trouble resolving these disputes.

Actually that's very believable.Since so many people want the explanation of how this works I'll tell you. Don't read any further if you don't want it spoiled. There are potential paragon and renegade points throughout the game. When the user arrives in an area (ie: Omega) the game registers every single paragon or renegade decision that can be made and increases the difficulty of the persuade system based on these potential points. If the user collects all of these points (either paragon OR renegade) they break even they can almost never get ahead of the system, you can only keep apace. If the user misses these oppotunities to collect all of the points the game still keeps these points you missed so the player will actually fall behind. If the player falls behind it is very difficult and almost impossible to catch back up because everywhere you go more potential points are being mounted against you and making the persuasions more difficult. So when you arrive at the most difficult persuasions in the game where you are already at a disadvantage due to the difficulty of the persuade and these potential points that you missed stack up to make it even more difficult and then you try to paragon persuade jack and miranda which makes it even more difficult(it's easier to renegade persuade those two and paragon persuade legion and tali) you are going to fail it; not because it's a bug but because the system was made that way.

What I think a lot of people aren't realizing is that when you import an ME1 save you get a pretty major bonus to the paragon or renegade scale which makes the persuades incredibly easy. then you start an ME2 newgame + and you are working from a clean slate.

Hopefully that explains it well enough for  you. I've talked to the people who made this system and decided on the bonus for starting a newgame+ and the odds of this being changed or made easier are very, very low.
If you're confused by the explanation I gave or need some clarification please feel free to PM me. Thanks .

So essentially you're saying that a player can't flip-flop between choices, otherwise they will eventually lose the ability to resolve higher-level situations? I for one am incredibly grateful that you've enlightened us with the information, as now we can put to rest that these are "bugs" or various errors in the system. It's very interesting how complex the developers have made it.

However, I'm not entirely sure I like the system, since a player may not feel the need to venture out of his or her way to finish a planet's side mission, but will be forced to if he or she wants to be able to resolve the game's major issues. I personally preferred the system when it was simply based on how many points you had in the level's slot, eventually reaching a position where you could make any choice whenever you wanted.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to Bioware to think of a way to meld the two systems into one, both making a weathered character able to stand up to any role-playing decision at any time and also based on a number of realistic variables.

Thank you again for taking the time to clear up the issue.

[LBXZero]

You call a system based on a percentage of collectible points complex?

Modifié par LBXZero, 26 février 2010 - 06:06 .

[ArmeniusLOD]

I think the system shouldn't be linear like this. I think that certain persuasion options should be more difficult based on the personality of the person you are trying to persuade and not on how many points out of the total you have collected up to that point. It seems kind of disingenuous that you have to be completely renegade or paragon to be able to pass the all of the speech checks late in the game. On my first playthrough I received about 80% renegade and 50% paragon (because I like being neutral, leaning toward renegade) and I could not persuade anyone from the Reaper IFF mission onward.

Don't misread this and think I'm asking that you be able to pass all persuasions with less than a full bar. I'm just suggesting that not everything progress in a linear fashion as it is now. Just something to think about for ME3.

[Kim Stolz]

LBXZero wrote...

You call a system based on a percentage of collectible points complex?

That was in fact a simplified version of how the system works. Don't thank me for spending this much time trying to answer your questions in the forum or anything.
It's stuff like this that makes people hesitant to try and help answer questions.

However, for those of you who are receptive to answers and appreciate our time. We love helping you guys!  

[Kim Stolz]

ArmeniusLOD wrote...

I think the system shouldn't be linear like this. I think that certain persuasion options should be more difficult based on the personality of the person you are trying to persuade and not on how many points out of the total you have collected up to that point. It seems kind of disingenuous that you have to be completely renegade or paragon to be able to pass the all of the speech checks late in the game. On my first playthrough I received about 80% renegade and 50% paragon (because I like being neutral, leaning toward renegade) and I could not persuade anyone from the Reaper IFF mission onward.
Don't misread this and think I'm asking that you be able to pass all persuasions with less than a full bar. I'm just suggesting that not everything progress in a linear fashion as it is now. Just something to think about for ME3.

That is an excellent suggestion. That's kind of what we did with the confrontation persuades. That's why we made the persuade for tali and legion paragon which was more reasoning with them because they're so logical and why the renegade persuade for jack and miranda was Shepard putting his foot down and sending them to their rooms like children, because they're both so hot headed and stubborn. But we also couldn't make the later decisions in the game really easy because then everyone can get the persuades and everyone would succeed and everyone would have the same experiance playing the game. A decision with no consequences is hardly a decision at all.

[trickfred]

Kim Stolz wrote...

LBXZero wrote...

You call a system based on a percentage of collectible points complex?

That was in fact a simplified version of how the system works. Don't thank me for spending this much time trying to answer your questions in the forum or anything.
It's stuff like this that makes people hesitant to try and help answer questions.

However, for those of you who are receptive to answers and appreciate our time. We love helping you guys!  

I just came to the party late, but that was an interesting read, and I would like to say thanks for the info. Any insight into how things work is very appreciated by many people, even if some on the forums briefly forget their manners from time to time.

[MonkeyLungs]

People might not like this but I actually think it should be harder to keep both people loyal in both the Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion confrontations ... I wouldn't even cry if they made it so that you lost one of the loyalty's no matter what you said and the Par/Ren persuades were only there to keep them from leaving your team. Ie. You have to choose who you want to keep loyal but if you were persuasive they both stayed (but only 1 loyal) ... not persuasive then one person left your team for good.



However, I replay this game alot so having more substantial consequences wouldn't bother me as I just like to play through again and again anyway.



The onyl games I play anymore are ME1 and ME2 ... it is really fun to go through ME1 then ME2 with the same character and ME2 has given me an even greater appreciation for ME1.

[The Red Winger]

Kim Stolz wrote...

LBXZero wrote...

You call a system based on a percentage of collectible points complex?

That was in fact a simplified version of how the system works. Don't thank me for spending this much time trying to answer your questions in the forum or anything.
It's stuff like this that makes people hesitant to try and help answer questions.

However, for those of you who are receptive to answers and appreciate our time. We love helping you guys!  

The part about the ME1 bonus is what I was looking for. I simply couldn't understand why i could pull it off on the first playthrough and got nailed on the second. I appreciate your communication and help...now is there anyway you could get someone to fix that Dragon Age Dex bug?

[Sunyavadin]

Very interesting system.

[LBXZero]

Kim Stolz wrote...
That was in fact a simplified version of how the system works. Don't thank me for spending this much time trying to answer your questions in the forum or anything.
It's stuff like this that makes people hesitant to try and help answer questions.

However, for those of you who are receptive to answers and appreciate our time. We love helping you guys!  

Well, I can't quite give a full response here.  The details are too thin to properly interpret whether this was paragon or renegade response.

As much of a renegade I am, most of my real responses in-game are paragon options.  And as such, when I go back and forth between the options, I am more and more penalized for being myself than following the preset path.  But if the system was too complex, such as evolving dialog, then the system can become unmanageable and potentially incompleteable.

[Koshea69]

Thanks for the reply! I was hoping for a point of clarification, For example if you skip a renegade interrupt because your doing a paragon play-through, does the points miss count against your total?



There are several points in the game where you can earn more points one way than another, does the system count the maximum you could have earned or does it only hold it against you if you didn't make a choice at all?



With no upgrades, leveled enemeis and completely blank slate paragon/renegade it's sounding like a horrible idea to play through a second time with a character rather than starting a new lower level one.

[The Red Winger]

Koshea69 wrote...

Thanks for the reply! I was hoping for a point of clarification, For example if you skip a renegade interrupt because your doing a paragon play-through, does the points miss count against your total?

There are several points in the game where you can earn more points one way than another, does the system count the maximum you could have earned or does it only hold it against you if you didn't make a choice at all?

With no upgrades, leveled enemeis and completely blank slate paragon/renegade it's sounding like a horrible idea to play through a second time with a character rather than starting a new lower level one.

I have to agree with your last statement. The motivation to play a second time with same character just died for me. Since I am forced to take the 100% bonus and am pigeonholed into making every renegade choice without varying it at all it doesn't seem like alot of fun. My guy can be a renegade with bad guys but he won't let a refinery full of civilians die. I guess I just had more fun on the first playthrough having more flexibility. Kinda sucks because I'd really like to play with my jacked up character, but it seems as if you have to be thier idea of a paragon/renegade even if many of the choices in the game are very ambiguous. Anyways....thanks for the update again kim, stops me from beating my head against the wall in my second playthrough....just stick to first playthrough's from now on.

[Im Too Legendary]

Harmony Remains wrote...

Kim Stolz wrote...

crapmonster13 wrote...

Maybe I was just lucky, but its hard to imagine that people actually actively going the paragon route and have over 90% still have trouble resolving these disputes.

Actually that's very believable.Since so many people want the explanation of how this works I'll tell you. Don't read any further if you don't want it spoiled. There are potential paragon and renegade points throughout the game. When the user arrives in an area (ie: Omega) the game registers every single paragon or renegade decision that can be made and increases the difficulty of the persuade system based on these potential points. If the user collects all of these points (either paragon OR renegade) they break even they can almost never get ahead of the system, you can only keep apace. If the user misses these oppotunities to collect all of the points the game still keeps these points you missed so the player will actually fall behind. If the player falls behind it is very difficult and almost impossible to catch back up because everywhere you go more potential points are being mounted against you and making the persuasions more difficult. So when you arrive at the most difficult persuasions in the game where you are already at a disadvantage due to the difficulty of the persuade and these potential points that you missed stack up to make it even more difficult and then you try to paragon persuade jack and miranda which makes it even more difficult(it's easier to renegade persuade those two and paragon persuade legion and tali) you are going to fail it; not because it's a bug but because the system was made that way.

What I think a lot of people aren't realizing is that when you import an ME1 save you get a pretty major bonus to the paragon or renegade scale which makes the persuades incredibly easy. then you start an ME2 newgame + and you are working from a clean slate.

Hopefully that explains it well enough for  you. I've talked to the people who made this system and decided on the bonus for starting a newgame+ and the odds of this being changed or made easier are very, very low.
If you're confused by the explanation I gave or need some clarification please feel free to PM me. Thanks .

So essentially you're saying that a player can't flip-flop between choices, otherwise they will eventually lose the ability to resolve higher-level situations? I for one am incredibly grateful that you've enlightened us with the information, as now we can put to rest that these are "bugs" or various errors in the system. It's very interesting how complex the developers have made it.

However, I'm not entirely sure I like the system, since a player may not feel the need to venture out of his or her way to finish a planet's side mission, but will be forced to if he or she wants to be able to resolve the game's major issues. I personally preferred the system when it was simply based on how many points you had in the level's slot, eventually reaching a position where you could make any choice whenever you wanted.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to Bioware to think of a way to meld the two systems into one, both making a weathered character able to stand up to any role-playing decision at any time and also based on a number of realistic variables.

Thank you again for taking the time to clear up the issue.

Ok, so basing of what you said, I still see a major problem.

Like I said, in my first playthrough, I used an Imported ME1 character (Level 35), I gained 150+ paragon points. That must have allowed me to complete those "hard" persuasive actions in my first playthrough, that I can't in my second.

For as aforementioned, I did everything exactly the same as my first playthrough, in terms of missions, and even more. However, apparently even doing more, and exactly what I did in my first playthrough, would not be enough to complete and resolve those conflicts. unless I had the help of the "boost" from my imported ME1 Character. 

If what you say is correct, where is the option to import both ME1 & ME2 characters? In order to have an enjoyable 2nd playthrough, and not have to go through this aggravating "process" of not being able to resolve the aforementioned conflicts: Jack/Miranda's, Gaining Zaeeds Loyalty if you chose to save the refinery, and having the paragon option in Samara's Loyalty Mission.

As such, if everything you said is true, there is still something "wrong" when you choose to play a 2nd playthrough, and import your ME2 character (Since your only able to either import your ME1 or ME2 character). This needs to be fixed, or some sort of median should be created. For obviously it is virtually impossible to resolve these conflicts if you import your ME2 Character since it's on a "Clean" slate.

This should be looked into, for now I am certain that I understand the problem here.