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[themincer]

First off, let me start by outlining the purpose of this topic:

I'd like for this thread to be a staging ground for any and all theories people have on the future of the Geth Collective and/or Legion "himself" (the unit Shepard communicates directly with in ME2), and the effect they may have on the wider universe they are a part of.


I'll get this thread underway now by listing some things I've personally noticed and some theories I have revolving around them ...

Let me begin by saying that I think Legion is a strongly written and very well-realised character in ME2 - I personally found him to be my favourite companion in the game.
I believe "he" possesses great depth, philosophical intrigue and even stronger potential for further development in ME3. For example, the implications of Shepard's interactions with "him"/them and the decisions taken on the Collective's behalf are HUGE. I think we've barely scratched the surface in that regard.

I also seriously believe that the way Legion refers to the protaganist as "Shepard-commander" (like a title of reverance) infers admiration of some kind, possibly bordering on future worship (like what happened with Sovereign).
It will be very interesting to see if whether this comes to pass, and whether this will occur on a mass scale throughout the Collective as a whole, or whether it will be restricted soley to the specific unit of ME2.



I think it could even possibly lead to the emergence of a culture of individuality in the Geth's evolution.



And what truly fascinates me is whether our decisions in ME2 will effect any and all of this, and how ...




PS (edit) : I just started thinking about something else (another alternative maybe?) ...

I find the use of the term "Heretics" to describe the Sovereign worshipping Geth, an interesting choice of wording aswell - it might subtly infer that the Collective believe not only that the opposing Geth worship a false God, but an incorrect one aswell.
To explain further, let me copy/paste a dictionary definition of the word HERETIC : -


Main Entry: her·e·tic
Pronunciation: \\\\\\\\ˈher-ə-ˌtik, ˈhe-rə-\\\\\\\\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : a dissenter from established religious dogma

2 : one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine

To break it down, the idea I'm throwing out here, is that upon a certain interpretation of their use of such a term, one could theorise that the Geth Collective might have once possessed a dogma or doctrine with its own set of beliefs that were well established, and therefore the "Heretics" were actually a splinter group from this orginal philosophy.
Given the fact that the Collective still actively acknowledge the Quarians as their creators, and therefore, the originators of their programming, perhaps they view them as their "true masters" and this is maybe one of the reasons they seek communion with them once more (?)  Could they be their original 'religious' figures?

Modifié par themincer, 14 février 2010 - 06:11 .

[infinite bias]

Legion is definitely a ripe topic for discussion. I think his inclusion in the game added more questions than answers about the geth. There definitely is a hint of some sort of value system/religion among the geth that I hope will be fleshed out in ME3.

[Inverness Moon]

I think the reason the geth call them heretics is because they no longer follow the geth belief that all sentient species should self-determinate. Though personally I would rather have them be heretics because they don't worship Shepard like the rest of the geth. Though I'd still be happy with only Legion as a worshiper. Admiral Xen will be so jealous.

[Jijan Dax]

ME3 is the final installment of "shepard's story" and will probably end in a grand finale of the reapers VS the rest of the galaxy. For those that allowed the Rachni queen to live: she already sent us a message that she will be standing side by side with us against "those that soured the song of her mothers" aka the reapers.



As for the geth ... there are various possibilities (and they aren't all mutually exclusive).



IF you reprogrammed the heretics with a virus then:



- It will cause them to join Shepard against the reapers. After all, the heretics have inside information and the Geth fleet is formidable.

- The Quarians go to war, but the migrant fleet is crippled beyond repair (the Geth have superior numbers now) - they will not be joining you.

- The Quarians go to war, both parties are equally matched ... Shepard will have to chose which one to aid... a truce doesn't seem likely, but hell why not?

- The Geth suffer from a psychological breakdown. After all, there was a warning that incorporating the heretics back into the "collective" would have unforseen consequences. I really like this option, it would mean that a Paragon choice doesn't necessairily have a positive outcome. The Geth could be so confused that they turn on the rest of the galaxy because of an insane "consensus" that they've reached in order to resolve their trauma.

- The Quarians don't go to war. But will settle a new world. In this case they either join you with the full power of the Migrant fleet, but this will take a lot of persuading from Shepard because the Quarians have no real reason to be loyal to him (even though they're the only race that seem to be fully aware of the Reaper threat)





If you blew up the Geth it would make things much simpler:



- There are still small pockets of Heretics in the galaxy, after the destruction of their most secret base it will cause a terrible civil war that will weaken the geth, as well as make them unavailable for the final battle.

- The remaining heretics flee towards the reapers. The Good Geth are recruitable in a limited capacity if the Quarians don't go to war.

- The Quarians go to war, both parties are equally matched ... Shepard will have to chose which one to aid... or see the truce thing above.

- The Quarians go to war: They win and the Geth are wiped out.



Whatever you decide, you can be DAMN sure that the Admiral Xen and Real'zorah's research will play a major role. I can definitely see a renegade choice where you side with the admiral and enslave the Geth once more as the Quarian's lapdogs.



A good paragon choice would be this:

- Shepard negotiates a truce between the Geth and the Quarians, the Quarians resettle their homeworld and war is averted at the last minute but the continued existance of the Geth is assured.



The "hero-worship" of Legion is nothing more than us humans looking up against an idol or.. better, a war hero. You have to understand that Shepard wiped out most of the good Geth's opposition. He's a hero in their eyes. This will also assure that the Geth have a reason to hear what he has to say and that makes the Paragon option of him negotiating a truce a possibility.



What I find a lot more interesting than the the heretics is Legion's incessant chatter about: "carving out their own future", this is at the very core of mass effect. Because the reapers make sure that all the galaxy's races follow the technological path of the mass relays and therefor never posses technology superior to their own. The Geth know this and try to break the cycle, while the heretics worshipped the reapers in order to gain acces to more mass effect technology. This COULd mean that the Geth possess something the rest of the galaxy doesn't (hint hint, dark energy??). This would also make the choice between choosing the side of the Quarians or the Geth less transparent. Will you choose the Geth who might possess an anti-reaper weapon?? Or the Quarians who you have grown to love so much over the past 2 games??



I'm certain there are still a lot of options available for people with more imagination than me, but this is a good attempt no?? ^^

[Looy]

I think the Geth VS Quarian thing will be a major event in ME3. It'll be very hard to get both to stop fighting.

[Kajan451]

I will deeply disappointed if i can't neogate a truce between the Geth and Quarians. Legion says the Geth protect the Homeworld for the Creators and live in space stations and not on the Planet. Quarians also have people calling for peace with the Geth. And i talked Tali and Legion into working together.. she even shares data with him.



So if the Geth only keep the homeworld for the Quarians and the Quarians want their home world back.. there has to be a possibility to work something out.



Of course.... so far ... i just realise.. unlike all the other characters i took everything for face value what Legion is telling me. I completely discarded the possibility of Legion deceiving Shepard. It just doesn't seem to be a software trait to give false answers. Which is even more underlined when he doesn't respond to why he wears the armor instead to come up with some lie.



Anyway... i want to bring Peace to Geth and Quarians. Or at least the first step of it. As much as i want to be a "big brother" for Jack and show her there is some good in the universe. Even if its just one person.



There are just some things i'd like to do.. and i think Geth and Quarian are only fighting because noone does talk to the other.



And i think the Geth need some "Mentor". They want to learn about the stuff we teach our children. To me the Geth have been abandoned by their parents and it would be a great possibility to learn more about the Geth and the Geth to have more questions answered.

[themincer]

Yeah, that's a pretty interesting way of looking at it : the Collective may see Shepard as some kind of father figure, that can teach them to better understand organics (very much in an educational sense), so they better understand how to communicate with and negotiate with them.

What did also strike me as significant in my playthroughs is the juxtaposing priorities of the two geth factions: -

The Collective have a tendency to seek an understanding of the universe in general, and particularly the workings of organics within it, and to judge this by their own means and values.
The heretics however, seek to dominate/destroy organic life, and are fascinated by other forms of 'superior' technology, and desire to integrate themselves within this ideal.

I kind of see these two extremes as polar opposites on the Mass Effect morality scale aswell, as somewhat symbolic examples of two diametrically divergent set of values -

Their is one desire, to embrace understanding, tolerance and peace amongst all sentient beings in the universe (ultimately paragon-esque), and the other is to reap suffering on the races of the galaxy through attempts to dominate and destroy anything belonging outside of their own rigid design for the universe (ultimately renegade-like perspective).
Of course, all very Star Wars like (which in turn is based upon ancient human mythological traditions of good vs evil), but the difference here is in the details, and I like how Bioware is setting up a race of machines as clear leading examples of this philosophical struggle.


Edit: It's kind of like one Geth faction almost displays a desire to comprehend and express compassion (my intention for this word is for it to be intrepreted in a Buddhist sense), whilst the other is attempting to embrace a colder, darker, more factual view of other life in the universe.

Modifié par themincer, 15 février 2010 - 12:57 .

[blueTrance]

I like to call Legion a 'Brollective."

[Alexisonf1re]

A quarian/geth peace treaty with shepard in the middle of it would certainly be fit for me3, besides, i wanna build tali a new home on their planet myself .

[NRG-OptimaL]

the geth will save the galaxy in me3.



you heard it here first!

[amrose2]

Honestly the Quarian side of the war is hard to get behind for me. They struck first against their own creations for fear of a rebellion and getting killed off or forced to flee. They failed and had to flee anyway. Now hundreds of years later they blame the Geth for running them off their homeworld?

[tanarri23]

NRG-OptimaL wrote...

the geth will save the galaxy in me3.

Geth, rachni, krogan and your own friendly Reaper of sorts (EDI)

Modifié par tanarri23, 15 février 2010 - 02:30 .

[Divine Flame]

tanarri23 wrote...

NRG-OptimaL wrote...

the geth will save the galaxy in me3.

Geth, rachni, krogan and your own friendly Reaper of sorts (EDI)

Boy that Joker what a Tool he was, I'm stuck here computing PI cause he plugged in the Overlord.

[Invalidcode]

Looy wrote...

I think the Geth VS Quarian thing will be a major event in ME3. It'll be very hard to get both to stop fighting.

Hard to say, mostly it is up to the Quarians (if what Legion says remain truth in ME3). The homeworld is in good shape and most Geth don't even reside on the planet, and they kept the planet in good shape. Both race could reach peace if the Quarian can trust the True Geth & the Geth remain peaceful after they build their giant 'building' & figure out what to do next with themselves.

[Mikenator700]

Does anyone else think that the Quarian/Geth peace treaty bit would work as a viable DLC?

It could technically just be a few add-ons in the Far Rim. Maybe a revisit to the Rayya. It wouldn't even have to be any fighting, just negotiations of some sort with Legion.

If you bring Legion to the Flotilla, Korris is all too sympathetic to want peace between them and the Geth. You already have one Admiral in favor. I wouldn't take a massive gunfight to convince the other two.

[sickblaze]

I'd pay for that DLC.

[JediMB]

amrose2 wrote...

Honestly the Quarian side of the war is hard to get behind for me. They struck first against their own creations for fear of a rebellion and getting killed off or forced to flee. They failed and had to flee anyway. Now hundreds of years later they blame the Geth for running them off their homeworld?

Well, it's easy to think of the Geth as some kind of terrible enemy when the Heretics are the only Geth who have made contact with organic sentients. The rest of the Geth kept themselves isolated in the Perseus Veil, working on their ascension in peace.

[senojones]

I've always thought the idea behind how Legion and the Geth were built as such a great concept. If you really try to think about it, the geth are one individual entity with such a large perspective on the galaxy.



Think if it like this, if we were cpable of viewing our experences from multiple points of view. That concept would require the idea of multiple realities, and somehow combine all of those experiences together into one main reality. The ammount of information and experiences are endless and Legion has been capable of it.

[WarlockSoL]

This basically sums up my thoughts on Legion and his loyalty quest:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hugh

Modifié par WarlockSoL, 15 février 2010 - 09:28 .

[Alliedhorizon]

This is how i see things.



Quarian - They think the geth waged a war to wipe them out and take over all there stuff.



Geth - Waged a war with the Quarian's because they were gonna be complety destoryed if they didn't



--------------------------------------



I can see the only way that peace is gonna be made between the two is if the Quarian's understand that the geth only fought back only because they would've been wiped out forever.



Geht Colltive - They want people to go at it however they won't and don't see a need to wage a war.



Fleet Admiralt board - They wanna wage a war to get back there homeworld because the other option which is to settle a new world would " take to long " in most of there eyes.



--------------------------------



You need to remove one or the other before theres even talks of peace between the two. That is of couse if unless you give the Quarian's the hacking power from Tail's loytail mission.



The problem with that is if the Geth find out about that then the only Logical couse of action would be to strike first before they all become slaves again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------





Any thing anybody else wanna add, and if you don't understand the format then sorry not use to these small little chatboxs to post in.

[p95h]

The virus that rewrote the geth heretics was destroyed....but what if a similar virus were released on the Reapers themselves. Legion mentioned that Nazara (Sovereign) was a collective of programs much like the geth themselves. If each reaper is a community of programs, could they be swayed by a geth-like rewrite themselves? hmmmmm.



I see major problems with Admiral Xen in my ME3 story arc. I've rewritten the heretics, urged quarians not to go to war with geth, and let Tali keep Rael'Zorah's research hidden (for the most part). Xen strikes me as one who would re-write the geth (again) only making them a subservient army to the Quarians. This strikes me as removing the decision making capability of the geth, rather than reverting heretic geth decision making to the original geth decision of self-determination. Removing a brain is morally far worse than restoring the original function of a brain. Xen is dangerous imho.



Keeping the Quarians and Geth from an all out reprisal of the morning war will be a major component of ME3 I think. It will be interesting to see how decisions in ME2 affect the outcome.

[Alliedhorizon]

Actual i have a question to pose to this posts.



If the Geth find out about the hacking the Quarians are doing, Could they stop it from taking effect?

[Sprgmr]

When you bring Legion on the Flotilla and talk to Admiral Xen, she talks about hacking, but Legion mentions that it would only be successful until the geth platform reverted back to archived programs. But to stop that, you have to cut off each platform from the others, which then makes it much less effective.

Also, in that same conversation Legion refers to her as "Creator-Admiral" the same way he refers to Shepard as "Shepard-Commander," name then rank.

[Ride2Ruin25]

The Geth-Quarian War is something that's foremost in my mind for ME3, and I have to say that the previously-mentioned theories of a truce in which the Quarians regain their homeworld and the Geth continue their work is precisely what I'm hoping for as a paragon Shepard. Hopefully, talking to Legion, learning of the motivations and philosophies of the Geth, as well as the nature of their occupation of the Homeworld, will actually translate into dialogue for Shepard in arguing for truce as a course of action to the Quarian Admirality.



And if I may state my own theory, if you use charm/paragon to convince the Admirality to clear her of charges in her trial while maintaining her reputation, she hints in a conversation afterwards that she is a candidate for the empty Admiral position. If she is featured in ME3 as the new 5th admiral of the Flotilla (bear with me, Tali-in-squad people), at least initially, she would be key to the outcome of the Geth-Quarian conflict. Tali makes it very clear that she is pro-war through most of ME2, but perhaps working with Legion and (potentially) Shepard's urgings for peace will convince her to consider the alternative of a truce that will gain the Quarians the Homeworld.



Obviously, Admiral Xen is more than likely to throw a wrench in this plan, and Shepard will probably have to stop her, but I figure that she would be the only admiral to truly oppose such a course. Han'Gerrel (the pro-war admiral) is likely sensible enough to settle for gaining the Homeworld without a shot being fired between the Quarians and the Geth. Zal'Koris (pro-peace) will be satisfied with a truce that also gains the Homeworld, and it's indicated that Raan, being neutral yet inclined towards peace would also agree.



WORKS FOR EVERYONE!

[OniGanon]

I have a feeling that ME3 will involve uniting armies for the fight against the Reapers, even (especially) armies that normally oppose each other. So yeah I think the Geth and the Quarians and the choices made (on Legion's and Tali's missions and their confrontation) will play a big part in it, as will the Krogan and Rachni.