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[Tlazolteotl]

If there are false gods, and real gods pwn false gods, then ...

Shepard is the one true Geth God.

[FlintlockJazz]

amrose2 wrote...

Honestly the Quarian side of the war is hard to get behind for me. They struck first against their own creations for fear of a rebellion and getting killed off or forced to flee. They failed and had to flee anyway. Now hundreds of years later they blame the Geth for running them off their homeworld?

You need to read into the whole concept of how AI is viewed and perceived to work in the ME universe to understand.  All the organic species, not just the Quarians, have since before the rise of the geth believed that synthetic life is a bad thing.  This is due to research showing that the rise of an AI will lead to the destruction of organic life (research in the game, not real life research) as an inevitable conclusion, hence why the Council outlawed all AI development.  This attitude is explained in greater detail in Mass Effect Revelations but essentially they don't really consider any other conclusion possible, its what will happen.

Hence, when the Quarians discovered that the geth had gained sentience and sapience their response was not "Oh my god its alive!" but "Oh my god they are gonna kill us all!  Stab it stab it!  Eek!"

I do wonder where people get the idea that its only the heretic geth that attack people though.  All the geth, before Sovereign made his way over there, attacked anyone entering the Perseus Veil.  The council tried to send contact teams after the Quarian exodus to make contact with the geth only to have them destroyed, ergo the geth did not want to talk and this reinforced the belief that synthetic life will lead to the destruction of organic life.

[Sockwolf]

The council tried to send contact teams after the Quarian exodus to make contact with the geth only to have them destroyed, ergo the geth did not want to talk and this reinforced the belief that synthetic life will lead to the destruction of organic life.

I'm not saying you're lying but I was wondering where you heard this, I seem to have missed it in the Codex, and it seems to contradict what Legion says. Legion seems to be proof the Geth want to talk, else it wouldn't have been built in the first place. Geth don't need to communicate verbally, yet Legion has the capability. Purely for the benefit of beign able to communicate with organics.

[FlintlockJazz]

Sockwolf wrote...

The council tried to send contact teams after the Quarian exodus to make contact with the geth only to have them destroyed, ergo the geth did not want to talk and this reinforced the belief that synthetic life will lead to the destruction of organic life.

I'm not saying you're lying but I was wondering where you heard this, I seem to have missed it in the Codex, and it seems to contradict what Legion says. Legion seems to be proof the Geth want to talk, else it wouldn't have been built in the first place. Geth don't need to communicate verbally, yet Legion has the capability. Purely for the benefit of beign able to communicate with organics.

Mass Effect Revelations, page 117, all emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were immediately destroyed and the geth cut all contact.  Page 116 also says that the geth committed genocide upon the Quarian people, with only a few million (less than 1% of their entire population apparently) surviving.  Legion was sent purely to find Shepard because they felt they needed him, and later to find information on the virus.  His ability to talk was for conversing with Shepard, and since none of the other geth have shown the ability to talk this indicates the opposite, a lack of interest in conversing. 

[OniGanon]

As I understand it, Legion's purpose wasn't to open communications with organics as much as it was to communicate with Shepard specifically. The Reapers represent the Geth's ideals and ultimate goal, the closest thing they have to a god. And Shepard killed one. So to the Geth that makes Shepard something better than God.



"You killed their god. You succeeded where others did not. Your code is superior."



Legion's purpose is to learn from Shepard; to understand what makes his/her 'code' superior and to try and incorporate it into themselves so that they too can kill the gods. This is, IMO, why Legion has a piece of Shepard's armour. Whether consciously or not, Legion took a piece of Shepard's 'platform' into itself to try and be more like him/her.



The Geth do want to understand organic life though, because they want to understand the Quarians and, specifically, why they attacked the Geth.



"If we can model organic behaviour, we can comprehend the Quarian-Creators. We do not understand their judgements in the Morning War."



But they have been studying organic life for centuries. It's one of the Geth's goals, but it's not what Legion was made for.

[NaclynE]

Why do I get the feeling like Legion is another "I ROBOT"?



The plots been done to death where he's a he and not an it because he as a 'individuality' in him while the other Legion (Geth in his case. his whole race.) are semi free thinkers. i think in ME 3 he's gonna be deemed to be a god among his people and depending on if you rewritten the heretics, they'll see him as the equivalant to Jesus Christ or Moses or basiclly someone who can show their society 'the way' or 'the meaning of life' and what not and a whole bunch of stuff. I think it would be very neat to see this as a possible outcome in 3 but to me it's a 'been there, done that' idea. Also I would be interested in a possible outcome as he's treated as someone with great respect and whatnot.

Of course renegade wise if you off the heretics this i dont think would be possible so i think in 3 you might be only stuck with the decision of him being the last maybe while the quarians proper alone. Speaking of the quarians if you have rewritten the heretics, I think you might actually end the war between the quarians and geth and Tali and Legion become founding figures of the unifacation. renegade side for 3, I think I would have to choose who to side.

I really think alot of key things youve done in 1,2, and 3 between Tali and Legion will give you alot of feelings on how you should proceed with your relationships with the two factions.

Do I care alot about Tali and her people? Can I leave my differances behind despite dealing with nonstop geth all lead by Saren and Soverign who were manipulating them to do evil deeds?

Should they go to war? Should they vie for peace?

Alot of questions I am sure you can answer in 3. Really awsome stuff.

[FlintlockJazz]

Shandepared wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...


You need to read into the whole concept of how AI is viewed and perceived to work in the ME universe to understand.  All the organic species, not just the Quarians, have since before the rise of the geth believed that synthetic life is a bad thing.  This is due to research showing that the rise of an AI will lead to the destruction of organic life (research in the game, not real life research) as an inevitable conclusion, hence why the Council outlawed all AI development.  This attitude is explained in greater detail in Mass Effect Revelations but essentially they don't really consider any other conclusion possible, its what will happen.

Unfortuante that you don't get to bring this up with Legion. As I said I don't have any sympathy for the geth and this is part of the reason why. They've had centuries to establish peaceful relations with us. Many organcis have tried. However the geth have always remained violently isolationist and as such I will not trust them, almost no one will. We're better off with the geth all destroyed, either physically or via' reprogamming to return them to their non-self aware state.

I wouldn't go to that extreme, but I would like to know how Legion can say that organics can be involved in geth goals when they shoot anyone who comes close.  Unless of course when he said "If they want to be" in response to the question of whether or not organics could be a part of their future he meant "If they want to be shot at". 

I think alot of people view the geth as innocent because Legion comes across as naive and childlike, however they seem to forget that a kid with a gun can be a ruthless and terrifying prospect...

[lost lupus]

all this stufff is great here i was thinking that "Shepard Commander" was just a screw up by the the geth collective

example: whenever you write your name into a database or formal document you always put your surname first now considering everybody calls you Comander Shepard that legion believed this to be your name
i just thought it was a computer screw up thinking that Shepard commander was the formal way of addressing him not fully understading human speech (hey they were beyond the veil for along time)

Modifié par lost lupus, 12 mars 2010 - 12:14 .

[3zone5]

I wonder what happens after you "sell" legion to cerberus (my 3rd playthrough).

If you look it from that current shepard prospective he doesn't know that the geth are divided.

He might aswell go to war and eradicate pretty much all of them.

It might just be that cerberus actually finds multiple weapons to fight them or other synthetics.

[Sockwolf]

Destroying a geth platform, to a geth, is really more like destroying a remote-controlled vehicle.

I think if a geth is uploaded to a platform, and said platform is destroyed, the program is rendered unrecoverable and therefore it's perfectly acceptable to compare it to 'death' Once the geth became sentient, they became lifeforms. Killing them because they were scared is not the right thing for the quarians to have done. Each average geth platform (Legion is a prototype) hold around 100 geth. So destroying a platform is basically killing that many geth.

I think a lot of people sympathize with the geth for two reasons: they anthropomorphize them; something even Legion warns against. Secondly, they don't really comprehend the scale of the genocide and destruction wrought upon the quarian species.

I'm with you on the first point, it's very easy to use words like 'he' and 'him' when talking about Legion. But as for the second point, the quarians started hostility and their goal was genocide of the entire geth collective. The geth responded by chasing them away, but they haven't chased them past the Perseus Veil. Unlike the quarians, the geth have no interest in wiping out an entire race. Genocide is the wrong word to use.

Tali is one of my favourite squadmates, but I think Admiral vas Qwib Qwib is the only quarian with his head screwed on when it comes to the geth.

Modifié par Sockwolf, 12 mars 2010 - 04:16 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Sockwolf wrote...

Genocide is the wrong word to use.

It's the word used by the book...

I also don't think the Quarians actually believed the geth were fully sentient at that point.  Note that they still tried to kill them by giving them an order, and that it  failed because they were 'more developed' than they realised.  The quarians probably thought they were pre-empting the emerging sentience, rather like aborting a fetus (there are arguments for and against abortion, but thats the point, its a cloudy issue).

Also, you still got to consider the fact that all organics believe that synthetics will turn on and kill all organic life.  This isn't an if or possibility to them, its research done into the thought process of AI, and so to the Quarians they were making a pre-emptive strike against an enemy that will kill them, or at least that is the commonly held belief by the citadel races.  Whether its right or not is not the issue, it is what it is.

[themincer]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Sockwolf wrote...

The council tried to send contact teams after the Quarian exodus to make contact with the geth only to have them destroyed, ergo the geth did not want to talk and this reinforced the belief that synthetic life will lead to the destruction of organic life.

I'm not saying you're lying but I was wondering where you heard this, I seem to have missed it in the Codex, and it seems to contradict what Legion says. Legion seems to be proof the Geth want to talk, else it wouldn't have been built in the first place. Geth don't need to communicate verbally, yet Legion has the capability. Purely for the benefit of beign able to communicate with organics.

Mass Effect Revelations, page 117, all emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were immediately destroyed and the geth cut all contact.  Page 116 also says that the geth committed genocide upon the Quarian people, with only a few million (less than 1% of their entire population apparently) surviving.  Legion was sent purely to find Shepard because they felt they needed him, and later to find information on the virus.  His ability to talk was for conversing with Shepard, and since none of the other geth have shown the ability to talk this indicates the opposite, a lack of interest in conversing. 

I'm not sure how much faith you should put into the Revelations book for canon-information - it also claims in the book that the Geth "turned on their masters" (implying they instigated the war), yet in both the ME games it is clearly stated several times that the Quarians attacked first, provoking a defensive reaction from the Geth.
Now whether this is a retcon to the canon of the universe, or if the book was only presenting one account of the story is rather unclear.

And sure, they might have also driven the Quarians out of their home, and killed an awful lot of them, but seeing as they were fighting for their survival against a non-communicative enemy I don't think one can blame them much for not constantly attempting to negotiate peace with them.
Whether their attempts to study their creators now, will actually lead to an establishment of communication and/or negotiations, remains to be seen.