49 réponses à ce sujet

[Shinigami013]

Who else felt bad about letting the ascension just die without any hope? There death shan't be in vein though

[caradoc2000]

I rarely let them die. Why would you let your leaders be destroyed right when you need them the most (you have a crisis on your doorstep).

[Jonp382]

I think the fate of everything thing you know is 100x more important. They've died in every single one of my playthroughs.

[Matheau]

Jonp382 wrote...

I think the fate of everything thing you know is 100x more important. They've died in every single one of my playthroughs.

Not really sure how you made that leap. Your options were save the Destiny Ascention, send the entire fleet after the Sovereign, or just intentionally let the council die. There is no point where your options were "Save Ascention but everyone dies" or "Save the galaxy" choice.

If anything, wouldn't saving the Ascention be the best Paragon or Renegade option? Paragon wise you are saving the council and lives by helping the Ascention. Renegade wise you are saving the most powerful warship in existence, which will be useful in future attacks, at only the expense of other people's lives who are just as likely to die directly attacking the Sovereign anyways.

[Stengahpolis]

The Alliance fleet is going to loose some number of ships saving the Ascension. If that means they no longer have enough firepower to take down Sovereign, the Reapers come through and kill *everybody*. What's the council going to do about that? Deny them out of existence?
If the council dies, yes there's going to be alot of political strife, and it will take time to rebuild, put all the pieces back together, etc.. But if Sovereign opens the gate, it's game over and you have no continues.

So without the meta knowledge that the reapers are stopped regardless of your choice, your options are indeed "Save Ascention but everyone dies" or "Save the galaxy".

Modifié par Stengahpolis, 14 février 2010 - 08:49 .

[luk3us]

They sowed their own fate. If they had listened to you none of this would of happened.



Besides its a perfect opportunity to strengthen mankinds position in the galaxy.

[Karl45]

I let them die. I didn't want to waste a bunch of lives saving a few incompetent people that spent the whole game questioning every decision you made. They never believed you about Saren or the Reapers, until it was too late. They shouldn't be in charge of anything.



I would have saved them if I didn't have to sacrifice a bunch of lives though.

[JamesDBacon]

I typically tend toward the "right" thing when given a moral choice like this, and so even on my first play-through, without the knowledge of what the endgame brought, I chose to save them. Here's why:



Humanity has been getting short shrift from all council races, and most non-council races. If I saved them and we succeeded in bringing down Sovereign, then a human just saved the Council, the Citadel, and the galaxy. It helped our case. It proved that the human race is in it for the good of the entire galaxy, and not just themselves. If we all died because I chose not to focus on the Reaper, then no one would be around for it to matter, anyway.



It's also a humanitarian (irony!) choice to save lives, particularly the lives of leaders who seem indefensible. They needed me to make that choice, and so I did.

[Kepha]

I find the scene from the Ascension's Bridge when Joker cuts off contact to be very moving, and it makes me feel bad about leaving them to their fates, so they tend to survive unless I'm playing absolute renegade.

[ch4ser]

Karl45 wrote...

I let them die. I didn't want to waste a bunch of lives saving a few incompetent people that spent the whole game questioning every decision you made. They never believed you about Saren or the Reapers, until it was too late. They shouldn't be in charge of anything.

I would have saved them if I didn't have to sacrifice a bunch of lives though.

They didn't believe you enough to take actions that would affect the entire galaxy, on the other hand they made you a Spectre and encouraged you to act by your belief and continue your investigation. Doesn't this imply that they had to believe you at least to certain extent? I don't think they would make someone a Spectre if they didn't think there is a certain level of probability that you are right.
Also I can't say I disapprove with their actions. From your point of view, it appears like they are acting irresponsibly, blindly overlooking the Reaper threat, but you are in fact the only one who saw a proof of their existence. But from their point of view, it seems most logical that they are reluctant to perform any radical action just because one person without any hard evidence said so. 

[Karl45]

ch4ser wrote...

Karl45 wrote...

I let them die. I didn't want to waste a bunch of lives saving a few incompetent people that spent the whole game questioning every decision you made. They never believed you about Saren or the Reapers, until it was too late. They shouldn't be in charge of anything.

I would have saved them if I didn't have to sacrifice a bunch of lives though.

They didn't believe you enough to take actions that would affect the entire galaxy, on the other hand they made you a Spectre and encouraged you to act by your belief and continue your investigation. Doesn't this imply that they had to believe you at least to certain extent? I don't think they would make someone a Spectre if they didn't think there is a certain level of probability that you are right.
Also I can't say I disapprove with their actions. From your point of view, it appears like they are acting irresponsibly, blindly overlooking the Reaper threat, but you are in fact the only one who saw a proof of their existence. But from their point of view, it seems most logical that they are reluctant to perform any radical action just because one person without any hard evidence said so. 

They made you a spectre, because you brought them undeniable proof that Saren was working with the geth. They didn't believe you about him, until you proved it. Even after you prove them wrong once, they still don't believe anything about the Reapers, they just believe that you need to stop Saren and say he is using the Reapers story as a ploy to get the geth on his side.

And after your a spectre, your their agent and they should believe your intel. What's the purpose of being a Spectre if the council doesn't believe anything you say and even docks your ship before the Reaper attack. I'm not saying the council is illogical, but they could have given more trust in the person put in charge of protecting the entire galaxy.

Therefore I don't think it was such a terrible thing to lose a few lives, to save hundreds and put people who I think would better protect the galaxy in the council.

[DPSSOC]

Karl45 wrote...

I'm not saying the council is illogical, but they could have given more trust in the person put in charge of protecting the entire galaxy.

In all fairness they do give you a lot of trust considering you can detonate a nuclear device, destroy a prothean ruin, and commit genocide and they just let it slide.  Only when they are preparing their forces for an attack on the Citadel and you're raving like a lunatic do they act against you.

Now I usually let 'em die because in my mind it is the sound tactical choice.  If someone's trying to detonate a nuclear bomb you don't go out of your way to save a few world leaders you stop the guy with the nuclear weapon.

[Aviena]

I've done one Paragon playthrough in which they live and one in which they die. My gut reaction was to let the Ascension take care of itself - Shep wasn't going to jeopardise the whole galaxy for the sake of saving a few ineffectual politicians (who could just be replaced anyway). My 'canon' Shep lets them live though. The Ascension is a big ship, after all. She saves more than just the council members if she goes to their aid.

[Carcinogenic]

luk3us wrote...

They sowed their own fate. If they had listened to you none of this would of happened.

But then we woudn't have ME1 altogether. I think that the consequences of saving the destiny ascention are yet to be fulfilled. By now, I'm not too satisfied of what the council told me in ME2, having saved them in ME1. But we all shall see what rolls out till the end of ME3... keep doing your choices!

Besides its a perfect opportunity to strengthen mankinds position in the galaxy.

Yeah, you're right on this. But I'm yet to see it from my renegade playthrough. I played paragon up to now...

[thegreateski]

The Ascension has the biggest damn gun in the Council fleet, I want it intact



To hell with the council, I'll kill them later.

[MrGooberMan]

thegreateski wrote...

The Ascension has the biggest damn gun in the Council fleet, I want it intact

To hell with the council, I'll kill them later.

Cereberus says differently

Plus while it does have the biggest gun the the fleet that doesn't mean there isn't a better one in the galaxy.

[Asheer_Khan]

I really fail to understand why those who chose to let Ascension be destroyed because of Council hatred could forget that this ship is not Air Force One exclusive for council use but she can carry on board evacuated from citadel people.



Lets not forget that on board of this ship can be as well thousand HUMAN CIVILIANS and if you remember Volus talk about Ascension tour they spend about 5 hours on board and they were able to see very small part of this ship.



So before you decide to let Ascension to be destroyed consider fact that on your hand will be not only blood of those three indoctrinated councilors but as well thousand evacuated people.

[DPSSOC]

thegreateski wrote...

The Ascension has the biggest damn gun in the Council fleet, I want it intact

To hell with the council, I'll kill them later.

"We can rebuild him, we have the technology."

The Ascension wasn't discovered, it isn't some once in a lifetime find that can never be replaced it's a ship, probably an expensive ship, but a ship nonetheless.  You can build another one, a better one.

[Zaisha_temp]

Karl45 wrote...
Therefore I don't think it was such a terrible thing to lose a few lives, to save hundreds and put people who I think would better protect the galaxy in the council.

Leaving aside the (logical) "Sheppard can't know he will have enough ships to beat Sovereign anyway" bit:

The "few" lives you refuse to sacrefice hundreds of alliance soldiers for include not just the three council members (who are admitedly ****s, especially the Turian. But then thats what politicians are for.) but also the 10000+ Asari crewmembers of the Ascension. Sacrefice hundred to save thousands? Bargain. 

Also, I get the impression that Udina had more to do with you actually being grounded than the Council's own intiative. They might have let you go on your own stealth mission (Spectre operational protocol and the Journal text before actaully docking at the Citadel point to this) but Udina had his own political agenda to satisfy and forced the lockdown option.

[Milvushina]

Same reasoning as James.. all through the game you're being reminded humans are newcomers who tend to be bullies that try to amass power for themselves. Then, the stupid Council that refused to listen to you is about to get what's coming to them.



If you choose to save them at the expense of many human soldiers' lives, what you are really choosing to save is what the council represents, an alliance of many species. It proves that even without their own representation, humans value that alliance and see themselves as part of it, not outsiders whose biggest motivation is to protect their own species.



I was worried I'd get the Normandy destroyed and my friends killed by saving them. But all through the game my Paragon stuck up for aliens and working together, and I think she'd believe that the war against the reapers could only be won once and for all if everyone was united.



On a side note, it was hilarious when the ambassador got all huffy because I appointed the captain to be a Councilor. And I got to tell him, "I'm not picking you!" Ha, only thing better would be if I could have just slapped him.

[Jonp382]

JamesDBacon wrote...

I typically tend toward the "right" thing when given a moral choice like this, and so even on my first play-through, without the knowledge of what the endgame brought, I chose to save them. Here's why:

The right thing is to stop Saren and Sovereign from ruining the day for a galaxy full of intelligent life. Both paragon and renegade strive to reach this goal. The only difference in this case is that the paragon goes out of their way to endanger the mission to try and save others, innocents, everyone, whatever. The renegade gets it done at all costs. That can mean being 'morally incorrect', but in the final battle nobody is morally wrong by concentrating all their energy on the single biggest threat to everyone's existence. The Destiny Ascension isn't exactly defenseless, and while it's chances of survival are low, so are yours and your men, and they don't get any better by saving the Ascension. Not saving if you fail to stop the Reaper incursion of course, they're still dead! Lose/lose situation.

[Skil7]

I just finished the game for the 1st time. I was under the impression that the Ascension was the most powerful warship in the Citadel fleet (more powerful than anything the humans had). I thought the only chance to defeat Sovereign was to make sure that Ascension survives. What other ship had a chance to breach Sovereign's defenses?



An analogy would be that Sovereign was like a tank, the human fleet was using bows and arrows, while Ascnesion actually had a cannon that could breach Sovereign's armor.



In a battle, why would you sacrifice your most powerful piece to a bunch of pawns (Geth fleet). It was a no brainer for me to save the Ascension (not because of the council).

[caradoc2000]

A few additional viewpoints (repeated from the old BioBoards to benefit those who haven't followed the discussion on this same topic there).

Sovereign isn't going to open any relay until Saren has finished his job. As you can see in the various cutscenes, Sovereign just clings to the Citadel for a long time waiting for Saren. The fleet can not help Shepard to stop Saren - Shep has to do it himself.

Another factor is that even if you sic the Alliance fleet to Sovereign, they would be vulnerable from behind to the attacking Geth fleet (once they finish DA).

Modifié par caradoc2000, 15 février 2010 - 08:27 .

[thegreateski]

"We can rebuild him, we have the technology."

The Ascension wasn't discovered, it isn't some once in a lifetime find that can never be replaced it's a ship, probably an expensive ship, but a ship nonetheless.  You can build another one, a better one.

Cereberus says differently ../../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png

Plus while it does have the biggest gun the the fleet that doesn't mean there isn't a better one in the galaxy.

There is no sense in destroying a peice of tech just because it can be replaced later.

At best it will be a vital part of the defense againts the Reapers.

At worst it will dsitract the Reapers long enough for the Normandy to get a shot off.

Modifié par thegreateski, 16 février 2010 - 12:18 .

[JamesDBacon]

Jonp382 wrote...
Lose/lose situation.

. . . Except for the fact that I pulled it off.