49 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Skil7 wrote...

I just finished the game for the 1st time. I was under the impression that the Ascension was the most powerful warship in the Citadel fleet (more powerful than anything the humans had). I thought the only chance to defeat Sovereign was to make sure that Ascension survives. What other ship had a chance to breach Sovereign's defenses?

I got, and always get, the impression that since the Ascension is on the verge of being destroyed when it's saved that they're out of the fight.

thegreateski wrote...

There is no sense in destroying a peice of tech just because it can be replaced later.

At best it will be a vital part of the defense againts the Reapers.

At worst it will dsitract the Reapers long enough for the Normandy to get a shot off.

Ah the optimism of this post would be heartwarming if I weren't such a pesimist.  At worst it will retreat to Asari space to defend them from the Reapers leaving the rest of the galaxy to their fate.  Might not be what you'd usually expect from Asari but people do funny things, stupid things too, when faced with anihilation.  Funny thing is that's not even the worst scenario I could come up with.

You are right that there's no sense wasting the Ascension, but is saving the Ascension (either for the sake of the Council, civilians, ship, or crew) worth the risk of not being able to stop Sovereign in time.  That is the question each Shepard must ask themselves and while there's no wrong answer, though Bioware would want you to believe otherwise with their demonizing of the Renegade, people have their own ideas about what the right answer is.

So if the ship and the Council are replaceable, that weighs in on the decision.

[thegreateski]

Oh don't get me wrong.



If the Asari happened to have another "Ascension" type ship laying around then I'd let that thing light up like a firecracker.

[Zaxares]

I mostly save the Ascension just because I can't stand the scene where the Asari navigator on the Ascension says in a shocked voice, "They closed the channel..."



Besides, as a Paragon, saving the Ascension not only means saving the Council, but also however many other crew members there are on the ship.



Finally, while Sovereign is indeed the biggest threat, the Geth navy around him is also an enemy force that needs to be neutralised. Even if Sovereign was stopped, the Geth ships still need to be dealt with, so may as well deal with them now while waiting for Shepard to get the Citadel arms open.

[KenjiTheOne]

for some reason i can't play renegade....not that i play paragon either.

there are choices i can make and choices i can't. the Council maybe bit annoying,but this are races that have rule the galaxy for 1000s of years,mankind is new to the hole deal,all the Council ask is prove,can't give then,well fix the problem on your own,which we did.We don't need the others races looking at humans as treats with out respect,we get that amount each others."Save the Council,and show that galaxy that Humanity can take care of the business that they green ass can't "............."Being bad is easy,but doing what right is not"

[Myzzrimm]

In every playthrough I make, sans one where I was curious, I let the council die. Without metagame knowledge, you don't know if you'll have enough ships to defeat sovereign. And while the Ascension is sending distress signals- they're basically out of the fight then and there.



Sometimes you have to make hard choices. The only important thing during that battle was Sovereign. The Alliance ships, nor you, could know that defeating Saren (the second time) would defeat sovereign. Only that your ships were the best bet.



Even as a paragon, this was a choice I had to make. No hard feelings with the council. A necessary sacrifice.

[Asheer_Khan]

Well...



Lets take under strategic consideration of both cases.



1 - Let Ascension to be destroyed.



As was here pointed already Geth ships wer too busy whit Ascension to engage incoming Alliance ships BUT have you even consider what will happened when they will finish thier job?



Suddenly whole Alliance fleet will have entire untouched Geth fleet on thier tails and will be practicly taken in double sided fire from Sovieregin and the Geth.

Estimated casualties at the Alliance side 80% (assuming optimistic scenario) of the entire Acturus fleet.



2 - Save Ascension.



In this case situation is reversed.

It's Geth who get caught in crossfire from Turian's defence forces and incoming Alliance fleet and after easy turning of geth ships in space dust Alliance and remain Citadel fleet can safely focused on Sovieregin.



That's why i think solution for that case should be rather easy to make.

Beside during that battle Alliance lost 9 ships when Turians lost 20 but those 9 ships can be replaced by new ships in a matter of two, three years.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I let them die, because that's the choice that maximses the chances of ultimate success. Wasting time and resources to save them is idiocy.

Honestly, until people starting talking about it on the forum I didn't even know that it was possible to save the council and stop Sovereign. Since it's possible to make decisions elsewhere in the game that will guarantee failure (like doing the Ilos trench run on foot), I thought trying to save the Council might be such a choice as well.

I never tried to save them. Doing what's right isn't worth much if all of civilization is wiped out as a result.

[Lt Davo]

It seems to me that the people working through this logically and coming to the paragon conclusion are forgetting something: Shepard hasn't played Mass Effect. He doesn't know that the Ascension and Council will be destroyed if he says "Concentrate on Sovereign".  Perhaps the arrival of the Alliance fleet will cause the enemies to shift their focus on the Alliance, thus buying some time for the Ascension. Perhaps the Ascension has some resources Shepard hasn't been told about. Perhaps some engineer on board will pull a Scotty and get all of their systems fixed so it can join in the fight. Perhaps some other hero out there has a plan to save the day. Perhaps the Council will manage to escape on lifeboats. Whatever. There are a zillion possibilities that are totally out of Shepard's control and knowledge. So, without foreknowledge of the game ending, the one and only thing Shepard knows is that Sovereign must be stopped. The only sound tactical choice he has is "Concentrate on Sovereign".

[biomag]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Well...

Lets take under strategic consideration of both cases.

1 - Let Ascension to be destroyed.

As was here pointed already Geth ships wer too busy whit Ascension to engage incoming Alliance ships BUT have you even consider what will happened when they will finish thier job?

Suddenly whole Alliance fleet will have entire untouched Geth fleet on thier tails and will be practicly taken in double sided fire from Sovieregin and the Geth.
Estimated casualties at the Alliance side 80% (assuming optimistic scenario) of the entire Acturus fleet.

2 - Save Ascension.

In this case situation is reversed.
It's Geth who get caught in crossfire from Turian's defence forces and incoming Alliance fleet and after easy turning of geth ships in space dust Alliance and remain Citadel fleet can safely focused on Sovieregin.

That's why i think solution for that case should be rather easy to make.
Beside during that battle Alliance lost 9 ships when Turians lost 20 but those 9 ships can be replaced by new ships in a matter of two, three years.

Wow... now just imagine you were baised towards saving the council...


First major fault: Its not about defeating the geth, its about stopping the reapers. So even if the geth win the battle they can't use the citadel like Sovereign. Even if the battle is lost, the reapers can't start their invasion = tactical loss for strategic win.

Second fault: How do you get to the conclusion that the geths a) win the battle against the Citadel fleet, win it unscratched? a) Just because the flagship is getting hammered there is no reason to believe the whole fleet is defeated. If the Citadel fleet can't even harm the geth why would be of any help against Sovereign? Besides both points were never proved by the story in-game and are just your asumptions.

Third fault: Without Sovereign why should the geth stay fighting? They could just try to do as much damage as possible, but at the same time their fleet would remain in a weak spot, being the central point of the Citadel races who have more fleets than just those guarding the station itself. The longer the geth stay there without support the higher the chance of being overwhelmed. If they would be strong enough to take the whole alliance fleet, they wouldn't needed the conduit to reach the Citadel. Its clear that they planed their success on the reaper invasion and not on their own force.

Fourth fault: How did you get the proof the geth with kill all Citadel ships before the alliance fleet takes out Sovereign? When were the alliance ships attacked by geth while fighting the reaper?



People often think the Ascension represents the whole Citadel fleet, but they ask for help to save the council not to win the battle against the geth. The fleet actually beats the geth while the alliance beats the reaper, just the Ascension is lost using this tactic, while saving it you loose more human ships and the Ascension leaves the battle, reducing the chance to beat the reaper.


Both ways have their merits. Saving the council would be a higher risk situation, gambling on winning additional political influence in the long run, while sacrificing it is the saver way to destroy Sovereign and stopping the invasion, no matter what happens to those involved into the battle. Who doesn't see this shouldn't even start debating because he/she is too based to grasp any kind of argument the other side has to offer, making a discussion sensless.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Winnign the battle but losing the war doesn't help anyone. Saving Ascension in order to help defeat the geth right here is a pointless endeavour because you're endangering the entire galaxy. If Saren activates the Citadel while you're saving the Council, everyone loses.

[biomag]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Winnign the battle but losing the war doesn't help anyone. Saving Ascension in order to help defeat the geth right here is a pointless endeavour because you're endangering the entire galaxy. If Saren activates the Citadel while you're saving the Council, everyone loses.

My opinion too. Still I understand worries about geth falling in your back. I think its unlikely, but at least an argument.


I ain't going to risk the whole galaxy for the lifes of what is left from those 5000 crewmembers + 3 politicians. You are a spectre and like the council you serve the Citadel races and not the council itself. Like they won't risk the lifes of billions of people just for a few colonies in the Terminus sector, a spectre should not risk the lifes of those billions of people to safe those 3 guys who entitled him/her to his/her rank as a spectre.

I still ain't happy with the outcome and I could punch Udina over and over again for ursuping power from this situation, but good pill-bad pill - you can't have it all...

[DPSSOC]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

1 - Let Ascension to be destroyed.

As was here pointed already Geth ships wer too busy whit Ascension to engage incoming Alliance ships BUT have you even consider what will happened when they will finish thier job?

Suddenly whole Alliance fleet will have entire untouched Geth fleet on thier tails and will be practicly taken in double sided fire from Sovieregin and the Geth.
Estimated casualties at the Alliance side 80% (assuming optimistic scenario) of the entire Acturus fleet.

Problem the 1st: The Ascension is in danger we know nothing of the status of the remainder of the fleet.  When Sovereign plowed through into the citadel this would have left gaps in the Citadel ranks that the Geth could have used to isolate the Ascension.  We don't know but if the Ascension is calling for help it stands to reason they think there's someone who can (Alliance fleet hasn't arrived and they don't know Shepard is on the Citadel).

Problem the 2nd:  Attacking the Alliance forces would involve turning their backs to the much larger (being a joint species affair intended as a last line of defense) Citadel fleet, they'd be torn to shreds.

Asheer_Khan wrote...

2 - Save Ascension.

In this case situation is reversed.
It's Geth who get caught in crossfire from Turian's defence forces and incoming Alliance fleet and after easy turning of geth ships in space dust Alliance and remain Citadel fleet can safely focused on Sovieregin.

Problem the 1st: As with the above scenario you assume the entire geth fleet is attacking the Ascension.  If this were the case they would have been soundly defeated by the rest of the Citadel fleet.  All you clear out is the portion of the Geth fleet focusing on the Ascension (given dreadnoughts are for all intents and purposes useless at close/medium range this could consist of Frigate or Fighter wolf packs).

Problem the 2nd: The Ascension is most likely going to hobble off (heavily damaged, nearly destroyed, safe to assume they're out of the fight) and the rest of the Citadel fleet have to deal with the remaining Geth.

Problem the 3rd: Time is a factor.  Shepard has managed to wrestle control of the Citadel from Sovereign, we have no idea how long that will last.  Taking time to save the Ascension is time away from stopping Sovereign.

Now you're assessment may be entirely accurate and my post is not meant to say, "No this is how things are" but merely to point out that we (or at least Shepard) know next to nothing about how the battle is going outside.  Assumptions and speculation get us nowhere we can only make the decision based on what we know.

[Pacifien]

I never understood the reasoning behind saving the Ascension because of how powerful/valuable of a ship it would be to lose. It was powerful. Now it's a beaten up shell that's about ready to explode under heavy bombardment. Yeah, it could be fixed, but you don't know that you're going to defeat Sovereign to even get to that point. By this stage in the battle, the Ascension is just bait for the geth ships, making sure the geth don't come after you.

Somehow, I can understand the reasoning behind saving the Ascension in order to save the Council, but that depends on how you want to roleplay Shepherd. I can see some heroic paragon figure taking the time and energy to save their king, their symbol of.... of whatever it is those heroic paragon figures think is so important about such figureheads.

Or, okay, you're in a battle, reinforcements arrive, you get the reinforcements straight into the battle instead of waiting on the sidelines. I can see that, too. I mean, if you felt that just constantly throwing firepower at the enemy irregardless of the casualties would work. Russians did that plenty of times, and it worked for them sometimes.

But my Shepherd would sacrifice a thousand if it meant saving millions. At this point in the game, I've told everyone that the real threat isn't the geth, isn't Saren. The ultimate threat is the Reapers. Every ship on that battlefield could explode--even the human ones--if it meant Sovereign would fail. So hell yeah, I tell the Alliance not to go after the Ascension.

I would have liked to have seen a different cinematic when the Alliance does concentrate on Sovereign if you had chosen to save the Ascension, though. One of my playthroughs chose to save them in the hopes that the effect on the Alliance's final push would be devastating. Like instead of 8 ships being lost during the battle, 15 ships were lost because they spread themselves to thin, made themselves too weak against Sovereign. I might have chosen to save the Council more often just to see humanity hold some grudge over their human Spectre sacrificing humans so readily.

[BrotherJason]

Sometimes you have to make hard choices for the greater good. I personally considered both options, but decided for not saving the council in the end. Though morally grey it is a good strategic decision: Have the main fleet concentrate on the threat at hand and use the Ascension as a diversion to keep the main fleet out of harms way until the arms are open. The Ascension was badly damaged so saving it wouldn't have helped in dealing with Sovereign, while drawing fire away from it would have surely increased casualties, and might have led the fleet to end up too weak for the final assault. Ships can be rebuilt and governments reorganized, but extinction isn't as easily undone.

[Sylvius the Mad]

biomag wrote...

Still I understand worries about geth falling in your back.

I understand it - I just think it's shortsighted.  Sure, if the geth manage to rally they could come kill us.  But then the rest of the galaxy will still be here to deal with them.

Saving Ascension is a high-risk/low-reward enterprise.  It's a bad bet; that you happen to win it doesn't change that.

[R-F]

i never once let them live, they annoyed me far too much. and really its their own fault for not doing their jobs right.

[Asheer_Khan]

OK...



Maybe i am wrong but something tells me that people who says that Sovieregin would be able to rewrite Vigil's relay blockade after Shepard undertake control over that console miss general point.



Soieregin was unable to made direct contact whit citadel systems because proteans who came to Citadel after reapers withdraw installed too strong firewalls preventing reapers from any direct contact whit citadel systems.



That's why Sovieregin need Saren to bypass those firewalls and open relay using Council chamber console.



After Saren's death and Shepard takeover direct control over entire relay network (that's why Alliance fleet was able to join battle at all) Sovieregin was practicly outgunned (maybe people should stop skipping dialouges?) without chance to any reinforcement.



And about Geth fleet.



If you pay attention to Shepard's talk whit that moron reporter (Kalissa al Gillani if i recall correct) in ME 2 Shepard say pretty clear that Alliance lost only 9 ships when Turians lost 20.

So Citadel defence fleet was already heavy crippled when Alliance fleet come so there was pretty high chance that after disposal Ascension and remaining Turian ships Geth ships will found themself in pretty lucky position having core of the Alliance fleet for that sector direct before them and in other word sandwitched between them and Sovieregin...



@R-F



Sooo... just because those trio annoys you this is justification for Ascension genocide?



After reading such posts i really hope that humanity NEVER EVER leave Earth and God forbid made contact whit any galactic civilizations (if they egsisting somewere beyond our solar system.).



In my new ME 1 run i noticed something strange when comes to information about Virmire.

During that holo transmission Turian Councilor was not present so i start to assuming that giving me this information was sole initiative of Asari and Salarian Councilors otherwise why Turian Councilor was silent when he "loves" to annoy Shepard.



In every other contacts whit Council Turian was there so maybe they are not so close minded as they might look but let's not forget who represent military power in Council and First Contact war still cast heavy shadow on Humans - Turians relationship .



I really wish that Devs will give us in ME 3 more options to influence Council approach on the Reapers case by possibility to contacting Asari, Salarian and Turian Goverments, this same bypassing Council.



And to conclude.



No, i read way too many historical books to let humanity have key role in galaxy and last thing what galaxy need in dawn of reapers invasion is another Acturus Mengsk (aka Udina or TIM) leading Council forces to war.

And one more thing... is allowing to Ascension be destroyed not confirmation of Saren's words that Humanity is not ready to join Council?

[biomag]

Asheer_Khan: Its interesting how unknown species in any case are more capable/morally better than humans.



Don't get me wrong, I spent the last 7 months working at court, working for criminal law judges. Just today a man was found guilty for abusing his 3 year old child. I also spent enough time reading history books. So I know who what humans are capable of, from person-to-person-acts to large scale politics. I ain't a fan of humanity, but still its very naive to expect the we are the worst that galaxy has to offer.



Also people who think that the other ME-races are entitled to lead the galaxy because they are morally so much higher than humans are just plain blind. They are written by a human author with a human mindset. They act like humans. You can't name a single race in a single situation were you can find an example of dealing with situations that can't be found in our own history. The council order the genocide of the rachni. The council order the usage of the genophage. The council doesn't want to share their power with volus and elcor. A lot of turians hold a grudge towards the humans. Looks pretty human to me.



I ain't saying humans are better, but I think Alenko has the best quote in the game: "they're jerks and saints, just like us".



One last quote:

"And one more thing... is allowing to Ascension be destroyed not confirmation of Saren's words that Humanity is not ready to join Council?"



Saren is the first one who would have sacrificed the council to stop such a threat (if the re-enforcements weren't humans). You are claiming that only humans would sacrifice the Ascension, which can't be proved by any means. The salarian councilor always said it himself that "the mission comes first". Garrus & Liara, both of council races, have the line to sacrifice the council to save the galaxy (especially when combining Liara and Alenko, he wants to save the council, while she says they have to be sacrificed).



By the way, the turian councilor is also there when you get the Virmire mission. He may not speak, but he is there for sure (at least PC-version).

[JonyKJ]

From a militaristic point of view saving the council seems like a poor and irrational tactical choice, for what I could gather the human fleet was the only fleet with enough fire power left to take sovereign so no, no ships should go to waste to save the ascension.

[KenjiTheOne]

"This universe exist on a software,we as the players with our controllers or keyboard are like Gods to

them,they move if we say so,they speak if we say so,they fall in love if we say so..........im not religious by all means,but what will you do......will you give them a better future or do what the so call "God" did and leave us to our own destruction.........we hold theirs life in our hands,for better our worst..........." "Our choices are theirs choices,Our morals are theirs code"

[blauwvis]

biomag wrote...
The salarian councilor always said it himself that "the mission comes first".

This.

My Shepard was a Paragon through and through; always went the extra mile to save everyone.  And she was told repeatedly, first by Anderson, then by the Salarian councilor himself, that there might come a time when she wouldn't have that luxury.  The councilor probably wasn't imagining that he'd be the one who'd wind up on the wrong end of that bit of advice, of course. 

Leaving the Ascension to its fate was just about the only Renegade action she took in the entire game, because it was the strategically sound thing to do.  (Metagaming-wise, I knew that there would probably be no downside to saving them, but the lack of ill effects seemed unrealistic to me - kinda like Redcliffe Castle in DA:O - and there would be no way that my character could reasonably expect that sort of "perfect" outcome.)

Besides, the best Kaidan could come up with as a counter-argument was  "Sacrificing the Council for the greater good?  I hope you know what you're doing, Commander."

Well, when you put it that way, Kaidan, then... YES! 

[Zaxares]

blauwvis wrote...

The councilor probably wasn't imagining that he'd be the one who'd wind up on the wrong end of that bit of advice, of course.  

You know, I always wished during the denouement that Shepard could say to the Salarian Councilor after you saved the Ascension, "Bet you're glad now that I don't like making sacrifices, aren't you, Councilor?"

[Rix Raw]

Lt Davo wrote...

It seems to me that the people working through this logically and coming to the paragon conclusion are forgetting something: Shepard hasn't played Mass Effect. He doesn't know that the Ascension and Council will be destroyed if he says "Concentrate on Sovereign".  Perhaps the arrival of the Alliance fleet will cause the enemies to shift their focus on the Alliance, thus buying some time for the Ascension. Perhaps the Ascension has some resources Shepard hasn't been told about. Perhaps some engineer on board will pull a Scotty and get all of their systems fixed so it can join in the fight. Perhaps some other hero out there has a plan to save the day. Perhaps the Council will manage to escape on lifeboats. Whatever. There are a zillion possibilities that are totally out of Shepard's control and knowledge. So, without foreknowledge of the game ending, the one and only thing Shepard knows is that Sovereign must be stopped. The only sound tactical choice he has is "Concentrate on Sovereign".

Exactly. Who knows who may die or if you can even destroy Sovereign if you divert your attention from him. He just flew through the ships defending the Citadel without a scratch. I was hoping that the Council would survive, maybe be pissed at me for not jumping to save the paintjob from the Geth, but it seemed logical to focus all our attention on the greatest threat the galaxy has ever seen.

[Must have name]

First playthrough I gave the order to concentrate on Sovereign. He had to die, there's no way my character would risk him not dying.



I then had to reload and save the council because I didn't want a human dictatorship in ME2

[EvilIguana966]

There's no way Shepard has the tactical knowledge to make this decision. Saving the Ascension could be the right choice or the wrong choice. Obviously everything is secondary to destroying Sovereign, but saving the largest Dreadnought in the fleet could very well be the best way to achieve that goal. It's pretty easy to see how letting the Geth fleet annihilate the Ascension and then attack the alliance fleet from behind could be worse than the alternative of engaging them and saving the Ascension and then moving on to attack Sovereign. That's the kind of assessment that would have to be made by whoever was commanding the Alliance fleet. Shepard just has to tell them that they need to kill Sovereign by any means necessary.