129 réponses à ce sujet

[GEWill]

ejikvkaske wrote...

Hmm, this may be purely speculation on my part, since Duncan, who is half Ferelden, is the only character of Rivaini decent I can recall seeing. Anyway, let's look at Duncan. Even though he has dark skin and black hair, he does not exhibit any facial features typical to members of the black african race (sorry I don't know what's the scientific term for it). If anything, he looks more middle eastern. Compare him to Barack Obama, who's also half african half white, and well, you see the difference.

Which brings me to my point. Gaider wrote that there are dark skinned people in Rivain. From what we've seen of Duncan, they could be dark skinned and yet look completely different from black africans. I'm not sure that's the Rivaini are quite what you're looking for. For all we know, they could potentially be dark skinned middle easterns.

First off just say Black. Its not Black African or anything else. You aren't going to offend me or anyone else that happens to be black on these boards.

Secondly dark skinned or not, I do not consider Duncan black or anything else for that matter. Duncan looks white to me and has the facial features characteristic of an eastern European which would still be considered white.

[GEWill]

I truly hope those of you using dark skinned realize that dark skinned is NOT the same as black.



Dark skinned seems to be the term being tossed around a lot and even though Gaider said there were dark skinned people to the north, that doesn't mean they are black. When describing a person who is black you can't say they are dark skinned because it doesn't apply. You are either black or you aren't black and saying a person is dark skinned is NOT the same as alluding to them being black.

[Mlai00]

Actually that's your real world Earth categorization.

In another world, once "Black" ppl start extensively intermarrying with "White" ppl, what do you get?

You get a bunch of "darker-skinned" ppl.

Since "Black" ppl don't seem to be universally trodded upon in Thedas, i.e. not slaves/underclass, there's nothing stopping intermingling from happening. For all you know, black ppl as you know them have already been genetically absorbed into the general Thedan population.

I don't see Indians (of either variety) or Asians running around Fereldan, and I don't see anyone complaining. And yes, you can make those in the character creator, too.

[OverlordWarwick]

Well what is being black? Being mixed race myself I think the term black could, and is used for many things.



Saying that, I think the quinari, has a lot of features that could be similar to being the fantasy version of being "black"



Also the Rivian accent and tan make them seem a lot more Spanish/Italian than "black"



But then saying that why do we need black people? It is obvious that it was meant to be a fantasy equilivant to medieval England. Just to point out that during medieval England the slave trade had not started in earnest, And so there were not many black people about.

[Funkenstein23]

It makes sense that a medieval England analogue wouldn't have every nationality represented. It would be pretty much all European looking people. I'm sure that when traveling to other lands in future DA games, we'll run into different ethnicities.

[GEWill]

Mlai00 wrote...

Actually that's your real world Earth categorization.
In another world, once "Black" ppl start extensively intermarrying with "White" ppl, what do you get?
You get a bunch of "darker-skinned" ppl.
Since "Black" ppl don't seem to be universally trodded upon in Thedas, i.e. not slaves/underclass, there's nothing stopping intermingling from happening. For all you know, black ppl as you know them have already been genetically absorbed into the general Thedan population.
I don't see Indians (of either variety) or Asians running around Fereldan, and I don't see anyone complaining. And yes, you can make those in the character creator, too.

Actually wrong. Once you start having black people marry someone of caucasian descent you get light skinned, not darker. To a white person anything dark than you can be considered dark skinned, but that doesn't apply to all people since a mixed race person is not dark skinned to me.

Black people haven't been absorbed into the general Thedan population because you would still see some traces of black people in the world and again black does not mean dark skinned such as the loon at Lothering at the beginning of the game.

Who's complaining? I simply asked a question and nothing more.

Also to correct your ignorance, saying "I don't see Indians (of either variety)" makes you sound like a moron. There are not two varieties. There are Indians and there are Native Americans. Native Americans enjoy being called Indian as much as you might enjoy being called ****** or some other name describe you rather than white or caucasian.

[GEWill]

OverlordWarwick wrote...

Well what is being black? Being mixed race myself I think the term black could, and is used for many things.

Saying that, I think the quinari, has a lot of features that could be similar to being the fantasy version of being "black"

But then saying that why do we need black people? It is obvious that it was meant to be a fantasy equilivant to medieval England. Just to point out that during medieval England the slave trade had not started in earnest, And so there were not many black people about.

Really? So what exactly is black used to describe since you think it is used for many things?

What features does a Qunari share with a "fantasy version of being black?" My character and many of my friends characters look NOTHING like a Qunari. Other than cornrows what similarities are there? If you say size, demeanor, or anything like that I will stop you right there and say that any person on the planet can have those features.

Who said anything about NEEDING black people? I don't think anyone ever said the game needs it, but since Bioware felt the need to include white people and other ethnicities why not include one that makes up a very large portion of the planets population. Just because medieval England didn't have a large black population it doesn't mean there were no black people in England.

[Phonantiphon]

I suppose it should be a compliment to the game that its world is sophisticated to prompt a discussion on racial equality. I can't help thinking it's - I dunno - it's a game for heaven's sake, a very good very complex and in-depth one mark you but a game nevertheless.
I mean it just seems that you're attempting to apply this world's ethno-social mores to a fantasy world a. whose ethics and mores are more than likely very different and b. is in any event an analog of medieval europe which was not a place where one would habitually have seen people of any race other than caucasoid ones. Medieval europe was a lot smaller than modern Europe is, bear in mind.
Notice also that I said - "habitually" - there would have been Moors in coastal cities, areas of Southern Spain etc, much as in the game there Qunari for example.
Equally - fantasy worlds concern themselves traditionally with very different stereotypes - character class and character species - so your arguments would - in the context of this game - be more valid if you were having a discussion on why Templars oppress Mages or why Humans and Elves don't get along, that kind of deal...
The of the matter is, it's a fantasy game - racial archetypes are loosely based on the "real world" but are also expressed in different ways - the Qunari, again for example.
I don't see that that - in a fantasy context - is unreasonable, nor do I think that it implies racism or a lack of racial awareness. The meaning of race - (always tricky) - is different here, and I don't think that "real world" views are necessarily successfully argued either way within an alternate reality...
...that's what I think anyway. ) as you were.
It would make for an interesting discussion over a few beers though...

Modifié par bassmunkee, 15 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[Herr Uhl]

The place were there may be black people (if you say Rivain does not have it) could be to the northwest of the Anderfells, beyond "the Donarks". Though there being humans on every continent is far from a given, Thedas has no relations with anything outside Thedas except Qunari. But the humans ought to have come from someplace else, judging by the stories from Arlathan about the Shems that came, unless they were really slow and watched the humans originating from scratch.

[WhyIsThisNecessary]

I don't think Fereldan is as powerful or as important as England was, even the England of the middle ages well before it was a superpower. In the Hundred Years war, England occupied much of France. In the Dragon Age setting, it is the other way round: France inspired Orlay occupied much of Fereldan.



I always got the impressed that, compared to the rest of Thedas, Fereldan is a bit of a backwater. Thus, if there were darker skinned humans from nearer the equator in Thades, either as traders, slaves or for some other reason they would likely not be in Fereldan.

[Jace Surana]

^^This^^

Oh, and btw, yes, Duncan was black.

[GEWill]

bassmunkee wrote...
I mean it just seems that you're attempting to apply this world's ethno-social mores to a fantasy world a. whose ethics and mores are more than likely very different and b. is in any event an analog of medieval europe which was not a place where one would habitually have seen people of any race other than caucasoid ones. Medieval europe was a lot smaller than modern Europe is, bear in mind.

Since when has asking a question been interpreted as applying realities ethno-socal mores? My initial post was answered by one of the people who work on the lore of the game and since then I have moved on. The only reason I have continued to post is because some of the things being said just flat out don't make sense.

People saying Duncan was black, implying that dark skinned implies black, etc. Sure David Gaider said dark skinned people appear in other nations such as Rivaini, but dark skinned can mean any number of things, it doesn't mean black.

That's all I am saying.

[AlanC9]

[quote]GEWill wrote...

[quote]OverlordWarwick wrote...

Well what is being black? Being mixed race myself I think the term black could, and is used for many things.

Really? So what exactly is black used to describe since you think it is used for many things?
[/quote]

Maybe you should answer OverlordWarwick's question first.

[Randomname1212]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Randomname1212 wrote...

He is probably a troll.

Honestly, you guys fall for the most obvious stuff.

What can I say? I have cunning.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

GEWill wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...
I mean it just seems that you're attempting to apply this world's ethno-social mores to a fantasy world a. whose ethics and mores are more than likely very different and b. is in any event an analog of medieval europe which was not a place where one would habitually have seen people of any race other than caucasoid ones. Medieval europe was a lot smaller than modern Europe is, bear in mind.

Since when has asking a question been interpreted as applying realities ethno-socal mores? My initial post was answered by one of the people who work on the lore of the game and since then I have moved on. The only reason I have continued to post is because some of the things being said just flat out don't make sense.

People saying Duncan was black, implying that dark skinned implies black, etc. Sure David Gaider said dark skinned people appear in other nations such as Rivaini, but dark skinned can mean any number of things, it doesn't mean black.

That's all I am saying.

Who knows? We never met a full-blooded Rivani. For all we know they might be black. There's just way too little info on most of the nations other than Ferelden, so we can only speculate on what other people of Thedas look like.

[Monica21]

GEWill wrote...
People saying Duncan was black, implying that dark skinned implies black, etc. Sure David Gaider said dark skinned people appear in other nations such as Rivaini, but dark skinned can mean any number of things, it doesn't mean black.

That's all I am saying.

I haven't read much of this topic, but Duncan looks like the real-world equivalent of North African or Middle Eastern descent to me. Definitely not black.

[Phonantiphon]

GEWill wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...
I mean it just seems that you're attempting to apply this world's ethno-social mores to a fantasy world a. whose ethics and mores are more than likely very different and b. is in any event an analog of medieval europe which was not a place where one would habitually have seen people of any race other than caucasoid ones. Medieval europe was a lot smaller than modern Europe is, bear in mind.

Since when has asking a question been interpreted as applying realities ethno-socal mores? My initial post was answered by one of the people who work on the lore of the game and since then I have moved on. The only reason I have continued to post is because some of the things being said just flat out don't make sense.

People saying Duncan was black, implying that dark skinned implies black, etc. Sure David Gaider said dark skinned people appear in other nations such as Rivaini, but dark skinned can mean any number of things, it doesn't mean black.

That's all I am saying.

And fair play too mate, in fairness to my post I actually added a fair amount more than that since then, largely because I found the topic to be briefly interesting. As I said it's worthy of a couple of pints... no biggie. My interpretation of the thread was as I said - for neither fair nor for ill...
...anyway, I'm outa this thread.

[Randomname1212]

I think Duncan looks very Mediterranean, as in someone who lives at the shores of the Mediterranean sea. He is tanned and has dark features, but he isn't really black.

[purplesunset]

GEWill wrote...

Since when has asking a question been interpreted as applying realities ethno-social mores?
That's all I am saying.

GEWill, did you read my post on page 3 ? I know it's long, but it does address much of  what is still bothering you.

I have participated in previous threads, so I have given this topic some in-depth thought.

If you think the responses you got here were bad (such as people predictably accusing you of trying to introduce "political correctness" into a fantasy game), bear in mind that your thread has actually gotten some of the most consistently  civil responses so far on this topic. 

-------------------------------------------------------
There are NO black people anywhere in Thedas. They could say that there are "dark-skinned people" in an effort to try to not make it look bad, but I would much prefer it if they were just blunt about it and say up front that there are no black people anywhere. "Dark-skinned" could mean any number of things, and quite frankly sounds a lot like Public Relations speak.

There is nothing racist about this. To repeat, there is nothing malicious or racist about their choice to not have black people in their world. It is their choice to make a fantasy world however they want. Bioware should stand firm with their choice, but at the same time, they should understand that people who were disappointed with this choice might have something to say about it.

If they wanted, they could have written a lore which allowed for black people like in The Elder Scroll Series, but they didn't. No problem. They just wanted to model their lore after parts of medieval europe where black people were rare (but not non-existent). 

This, combined with the fact that the Origin stories were written with very specific characters of a very specific race in mind is what makes Dragon Age unique when it comes to the topic of race in an RPG game. It's not that Bioware is racist, that's just how things turned out because of the gameplay mechanic called  "Origin stories" which greatly narrowed down the possibilites of what the player could look like if he wanted to fit in seamlessly (e.g. if your character were elderly, he won't really fit into some origins, but you still could play the Origin anyway, just like how a black actor could play a white character in a theater). I explained myself better on page 3.

Modifié par purplesunset, 15 février 2010 - 10:04 .

[Gabey5]

zevran, duncan, and sten are dark skinned

[Gabey5]

double

Modifié par Gabey5, 15 février 2010 - 10:21 .

[Q.Q]

Check it out.I can dance in thatd video

[Q.Q]

Double post.

Modifié par Q.Q, 15 février 2010 - 10:37 .

[GEWill]

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...

[quote]GEWill wrote...

[quote]OverlordWarwick wrote...

Well what is being black? Being mixed race myself I think the term black could, and is used for many things.

Really? So what exactly is black used to describe since you think it is used for many things?
[/quote]

Maybe you should answer OverlordWarwick's question first.
[/quote]

Explain to me what being black has to do with the topic at hand and I will more then willingly answer his question.

Me asking about diversity in Thedas and him replying with what is being black have no common ground or relevance in the topic hence why I asked him what it has to do with anything.

[GEWill]

bassmunkee wrote...

GEWill wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...
I mean it just seems that you're attempting to apply this world's ethno-social mores to a fantasy world a. whose ethics and mores are more than likely very different and b. is in any event an analog of medieval europe which was not a place where one would habitually have seen people of any race other than caucasoid ones. Medieval europe was a lot smaller than modern Europe is, bear in mind.

Since when has asking a question been interpreted as applying realities ethno-socal mores? My initial post was answered by one of the people who work on the lore of the game and since then I have moved on. The only reason I have continued to post is because some of the things being said just flat out don't make sense.

People saying Duncan was black, implying that dark skinned implies black, etc. Sure David Gaider said dark skinned people appear in other nations such as Rivaini, but dark skinned can mean any number of things, it doesn't mean black.

That's all I am saying.

And fair play too mate, in fairness to my post I actually added a fair amount more than that since then, largely because I found the topic to be briefly interesting. As I said it's worthy of a couple of pints... no biggie. My interpretation of the thread was as I said - for neither fair nor for ill...
...anyway, I'm outa this thread.

My post wasn't directed at you, it was inresponse to Overlord.

I liked what you had to say and saw nothing wrong with it. I have actually liked a lot of what people have had tos ay in this thread other than some of the more blantantly ignorant things.