129 réponses à ce sujet

[GEWill]

purplesunset wrote...

GEWill wrote...

Since when has asking a question been interpreted as applying realities ethno-social mores?
That's all I am saying.

GEWill, did you read my post on page 3 ? I know it's long, but it does address much of  what is still bothering you.

I have participated in previous threads, so I have given this topic some in-depth thought.

If you think the responses you got here were bad (such as people predictably accusing you of trying to introduce "political correctness" into a fantasy game), bear in mind that your thread has actually gotten some of the most consistently  civil responses so far on this topic. 

-------------------------------------------------------
There are NO black people anywhere in Thedas. They could say that there are "dark-skinned people" in an effort to try to not make it look bad, but I would much prefer it if they were just blunt about it and say up front that there are no black people anywhere. "Dark-skinned" could mean any number of things, and quite frankly sounds a lot like Public Relations speak.

There is nothing racist about this. To repeat, there is nothing malicious or racist about their choice to not have black people in their world. It is their choice to make a fantasy world however they want. Bioware should stand firm with their choice, but at the same time, they should understand that people who were disappointed with this choice might have something to say about it.

If they wanted, they could have written a lore which allowed for black people like in The Elder Scroll Series, but they didn't. No problem. They just wanted to model their lore after parts of medieval europe where black people were rare (but not non-existent). 

This, combined with the fact that the Origin stories were written with very specific characters of a very specific race in mind is what makes Dragon Age unique when it comes to the topic of race in an RPG game. It's not that Bioware is racist, that's just how things turned out because of the gameplay mechanic called  "Origin stories" which greatly narrowed down the possibilites of what the player could look like if he wanted to fit in seamlessly (e.g. if your character were elderly, he won't really fit into some origins, but you still could play the Origin anyway, just like how a black actor could play a white character in a theater). I explained myself better on page 3.

Apologies I don't recall reading your post on page three. In all honesty I have not read each and every post.

I don't think responses in here are bad except for the blatantly racist comments by one user but I just shake that off because I understand some people are just slow.

This thread has been very good on replies except for a couple which just defy logic such as the one below.

Jace Surana wrote...

^^This^^

Oh, and btw, yes, Duncan was black.

If this person actually thinks Duncan was black all hope is lost because its obvious they have never seen a black person and I know that is quite possible since we don't occupy all cities in the United States.

Anyways, to avoid long posting I am not mad at Bioware, nor do I think they are racist because this is an instanced game. My original question was just more or less triggered by having white parents whenever I make human noble characters. I know there is a lot of material that hasn't been expanded up because the DA universe is very large and there could be blacks someone, but it just hasn't been touch upon. I would just like to see actual black people in the game akin to Mass Effect where you can find pretty much any race, or species at any given time.

[purplesunset]

Just accept that Mass effect is a vastly different setting. DA's setting is simply one where the cultures are homogenous, separate and self-contained as per the creators' deliberate design. It was meant to be a gritty, 
realistic setting (even though realistically speaking, medieval europe  wasn't perfectly homogeneous). But that's how they wanted it,and that's how it is.

GEWill wrote...
I would just like to see actual black people  in the game akin to Mass Effect where you can find pretty much any race, or species at any given time.

You shouldn't have worded it like that though because it is low hanging fruit for anyone who wants to bring up a red herring.

The response you will get is:

1.
Stop demanding racial quotas, diversity and political correctness in a fantasy setting. It's ridiculous.

Modifié par purplesunset, 15 février 2010 - 11:33 .

[Jace Surana]

GEWill wrote...

If this person actually thinks Duncan was black all hope is lost because its obvious they have never seen a black person and I know that is quite possible since we don't occupy all cities in the United States.

Ho boy. Okay, the problem is this...

Pay close attention now...

There is no United States in Thedas. Thedas, unlike earth, is an entirely different world. It's a fictional world. Fictional, as in not real. Duncan, imo, was a black person in that fictional world. Not held by the same standards for black people that you hold for earth, the non-fictional world we live in, but still he was dark-skinned and actually quite ethnic. Mayhaps their version of black, at least that's what I think. And by the way, not all black people look the same, so maybe your standards for black don't mean as much to others as they do to you? Perhaps they had some light-skinned ethnic ppl in DAO that you didn't notice? Just a thought.

Anyway, bringing up the USA as a reference to how black people should look in DAO (Or how you think they should look) is pointless since, as I already pointed out:

USA = real world country

Ferelden = fictional fantasy elf, dwarf, and dragon-filled country.

[AlanC9]

I seriously doubt "black" exists as a category in Thedas. So in a sense no one is black there. Even though some folks have a bit more melanin than others.

[Tystone]

Just to make sure I am up to date:

Dark Ages = Just a game. Based somewhat on high middle England. Black people are about, but they live up North far far away. Elves could be seen as Jews and/or Native Americans, though since elves aren't real (not human) the idea may be moot. The Black Spawn are either the true form of evil, **** or young black males...

Of course why does it seem that human males rule everything? Why does the Circle remind me of the Catholic Church? Why are the two gay men I see seem very "wispy?"

Oh so many questions...

Modifié par Tystone, 16 février 2010 - 03:32 .

[OverlordWarwick]

GEWill wrote...

OverlordWarwick wrote...

Well what is being black? Being mixed race myself I think the term black could, and is used for many things.

Saying that, I think the quinari, has a lot of features that could be similar to being the fantasy version of being "black"

But then saying that why do we need black people? It is obvious that it was meant to be a fantasy equilivant to medieval England. Just to point out that during medieval England the slave trade had not started in earnest, And so there were not many black people about.

Really? So what exactly is black used to describe since you think it is used for many things?

What features does a Qunari share with a "fantasy version of being black?" My character and many of my friends characters look NOTHING like a Qunari. Other than cornrows what similarities are there? If you say size, demeanor, or anything like that I will stop you right there and say that any person on the planet can have those features.

Who said anything about NEEDING black people? I don't think anyone ever said the game needs it, but since Bioware felt the need to include white people and other ethnicities why not include one that makes up a very large portion of the planets population. Just because medieval England didn't have a large black population it doesn't mean there were no black people in England.

Well you said you wished to see more diversity, and more black people in the game, and so I was simply rebuffing that with, why should they?

And I compared with the Quinari, because as a race they are not really part of the continent of Thedas. Their culture is distinctively foreign and apart from the generally culture of Thedas, and their appearance differs greatly from the inhabitants of Thedas, as well as their voice. 

Also they are a rare species to be seen inside of Thedas, only seen inside of port cities and as travelling bands of mecernaries. A similar role that Black people may of had during the "real-world" equivalent time period in Europe.

I ask what you mean by black, because certainly by many people's view the term black defines anyone with dark skin tones. If you look at president Obama, not one media outlet said he was the first "mixed race" president of the USA, they said he was black.

And so, your request for more black people could be fufilled in many peoples eyes already. 

[OverlordWarwick]

WhyIsThisNecessary wrote...

I don't think Fereldan is as powerful or as important as England was, even the England of the middle ages well before it was a superpower. In the Hundred Years war, England occupied much of France. In the Dragon Age setting, it is the other way round: France inspired Orlay occupied much of Fereldan.

I always got the impressed that, compared to the rest of Thedas, Fereldan is a bit of a backwater. Thus, if there were darker skinned humans from nearer the equator in Thades, either as traders, slaves or for some other reason they would likely not be in Fereldan.

You do realise that the Normans (the french) conquered England. It really does depend on what you mean by the middle ages, because until the 1700s we were small fry. Look towards Spain and France for the true superpowers. England never occupied "much of France" It occupied Normandy, which in itself wasn't technically part of mainland France, and the French took it back many many times...

If you look at where Thedas is, technologically, which is pre-gunpowder, then Fereldan and England is pretty much at the same level power-terms...

[OverlordWarwick]

GEWill wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...

GEWill wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...
I mean it just seems that you're attempting to apply this world's ethno-social mores to a fantasy world a. whose ethics and mores are more than likely very different and b. is in any event an analog of medieval europe which was not a place where one would habitually have seen people of any race other than caucasoid ones. Medieval europe was a lot smaller than modern Europe is, bear in mind.

Since when has asking a question been interpreted as applying realities ethno-socal mores? My initial post was answered by one of the people who work on the lore of the game and since then I have moved on. The only reason I have continued to post is because some of the things being said just flat out don't make sense.

People saying Duncan was black, implying that dark skinned implies black, etc. Sure David Gaider said dark skinned people appear in other nations such as Rivaini, but dark skinned can mean any number of things, it doesn't mean black.

That's all I am saying.

And fair play too mate, in fairness to my post I actually added a fair amount more than that since then, largely because I found the topic to be briefly interesting. As I said it's worthy of a couple of pints... no biggie. My interpretation of the thread was as I said - for neither fair nor for ill...
...anyway, I'm outa this thread.

My post wasn't directed at you, it was inresponse to Overlord.

I liked what you had to say and saw nothing wrong with it. I have actually liked a lot of what people have had tos ay in this thread other than some of the more blantantly ignorant things.

Well that is my point. To some people "Dark-Skinned" does mean black. Not everyone has a solidified view on this matter.

[Mlai00]

@ GEWIII:

Give me a break with the P.C. sensitivity ****sm. American Indian and Native American mean the exact same thing. Just because American Indian is a misnomer due to Columbus' naivete, doesn't make it offensive.

So, by Black you really mean African American. You or somebody else keep saying "I'm not offended by Bioware I'm just disappointed and raising a point." Well, it's hypocritical to keep saying you don't mind, as a defense, when you obviously do mind because you keep making the same point.

There are no Africans or African Americans or African British or whatever in DAO. Just like there are no Asians, no Native Americans, no Indians (India), no Australian aborigines, no Pygmies, or whatever else exists on Earth but not in Fereldan. There's nothing to be disappointed by. The game world was clearly meant to be a NE European template fantasy.

I actually have no desire to see Africans in this franchise, just like I have no desire to see Asians in this franchise. For different reasons. In terms of the Asians, it's because I want NO reminder of JRPGs while playing DAO. And I don't want any D&D "hurr hurr we'll base Hobgoblins on Asian countries no one will know the difference" bs.

[OverlordWarwick]

Mlai00 wrote...

@ GEWIII:
Give me a break with the P.C. sensitivity ****sm. American Indian and Native American mean the exact same thing. Just because American Indian is a misnomer due to Columbus' naivete, doesn't make it offensive.
So, by Black you really mean African American. You or somebody else keep saying "I'm not offended by Bioware I'm just disappointed and raising a point." Well, it's hypocritical to keep saying you don't mind, as a defense, when you obviously do mind because you keep making the same point.
There are no Africans or African Americans or African British or whatever in DAO. Just like there are no Asians, no Native Americans, no Indians (India), no Australian aborigines, no Pygmies, or whatever else exists on Earth but not in Fereldan. There's nothing to be disappointed by. The game world was clearly meant to be a NE European template fantasy.
I actually have no desire to see Africans in this franchise, just like I have no desire to see Asians in this franchise. For different reasons. In terms of the Asians, it's because I want NO reminder of JRPGs while playing DAO. And I don't want any D&D "hurr hurr we'll base Hobgoblins on Asian countries no one will know the difference" bs.

As for me, I wouldn't mind seeing different human races perhaps being portrayed by fantasy races, if it fits with the lore. Yet there is nothing wrong with not having them, and nothing wrong with having them.

Bioware do whatever your creative senses lead you to do in my opinion

[GEWill]

Jace Surana wrote...

GEWill wrote...

If this person actually thinks Duncan was black all hope is lost because its obvious they have never seen a black person and I know that is quite possible since we don't occupy all cities in the United States.

Ho boy. Okay, the problem is this...

Pay close attention now...

There is no United States in Thedas. Thedas, unlike earth, is an entirely different world. It's a fictional world. Fictional, as in not real. Duncan, imo, was a black person in that fictional world. Not held by the same standards for black people that you hold for earth, the non-fictional world we live in, but still he was dark-skinned and actually quite ethnic. Mayhaps their version of black, at least that's what I think. And by the way, not all black people look the same, so maybe your standards for black don't mean as much to others as they do to you? Perhaps they had some light-skinned ethnic ppl in DAO that you didn't notice? Just a thought.

Anyway, bringing up the USA as a reference to how black people should look in DAO (Or how you think they should look) is pointless since, as I already pointed out:

USA = real world country

Ferelden = fictional fantasy elf, dwarf, and dragon-filled country.

No matter how you word your response, my reply remains the same.

If YOU think Duncan is Black you have obvious NEVER seen a black person because Duncan is white.

Maybe you should adjust the colors on your monitor or TV because he is a shade darker than Alistair.

You just wasted your time typing out a long reply when you seem to be the only person that think Duncan is black.

[GEWill]

Mlai00 wrote...

@ GEWIII:
Give me a break with the P.C. sensitivity ****sm. American Indian and Native American mean the exact same thing. Just because American Indian is a misnomer due to Columbus' naivete, doesn't make it offensive.

Who said anything about being offensive? I am simply educating because Native American and Indian are NOT the same thing as the person clearly said. HAd they said American Indian that's one thing, but American' Indian was never mentioned.

There is no sensitivity here, just a person trying to educate people that Indian is not the same as Native American.

Simple fact.

[GEWill]

*Double Post*

Modifié par GEWill, 16 février 2010 - 06:15 .

[GEWill]

OverlordWarwick wrote...

Well you said you wished to see more diversity, and more black people in the game, and so I was simply rebuffing that with, why should they?

And I compared with the Quinari, because as a race they are not really part of the continent of Thedas. Their culture is distinctively foreign and apart from the generally culture of Thedas, and their appearance differs greatly from the inhabitants of Thedas, as well as their voice. 

Also they are a rare species to be seen inside of Thedas, only seen inside of port cities and as travelling bands of mecernaries. A similar role that Black people may of had during the "real-world" equivalent time period in Europe.

I ask what you mean by black, because certainly by many people's view the term black defines anyone with dark skin tones. If you look at president Obama, not one media outlet said he was the first "mixed race" president of the USA, they said he was black.

And so, your request for more black people could be fufilled in many peoples eyes already.

I am not talking about comparisons based on different cultures, their voice, or rarity of their people. When I say black and I specifically referring to black people, aka African American, aka Afro American or any other term that identifies our ethnicity.

The Qunari are closer to Arabic than they are to anything resembling black people in middle age lore. In DA the Qunari went on an immediate mission of trying to conquer Thedas much like the Middle Eastern nations did during the same period in our reality.

Obama is black plain and simple. In the US more times than not Mixed race peopel are called black. Is it fair, I don't know, do I disagree with it, no. Anyone I know that is mixed refers to themself as black and that is their choice. Not all people do it , but it is what it is.

Too many of you are making this out to be a lot more serious than it should. After Gaider said what he said the issue was dead to me, but for some reason people are carrying on something that has already been touched upon and cleared up.

Why continue to beat a dead horse?

[GEWill]

Anyways, I stand corrected. There are black people in Dragon Age.



Last night on my way to the final battle, the cut-scene for the Circle of Magi shows no less than 5 black mages.

[Vuokseniska]

i just realised, there where no black people in lord of the rings!

[AlanC9]

GEWill wrote...

Explain to me what being black has to do with the topic at hand and I will more then willingly answer his question.

Me asking about diversity in Thedas and him replying with what is being black have no common ground or relevance in the topic hence why I asked him what it has to do with anything.

Wouldn't it have been easier to answer the question rather than duck it twice?

Edit: have you forgotten that you brought up the subject yourself?

Dark skinned seems to be the term being tossed around a lot and even though Gaider said there were dark skinned people to the north, that doesn't mean they are black. When describing a person who is black you can't say they are dark skinned because it doesn't apply. You are either black or you aren't black and saying a person is dark skinned is NOT the same as alluding to them being black.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 février 2010 - 06:52 .

[GEWill]

AlanC9 wrote...

GEWill wrote...

Explain to me what being black has to do with the topic at hand and I will more then willingly answer his question.

Me asking about diversity in Thedas and him replying with what is being black have no common ground or relevance in the topic hence why I asked him what it has to do with anything.

Wouldn't it have been easier to answer the question rather than duck it twice?

Edit: have you forgotten that you brought up the subject yourself?

Dark skinned seems to be the term being tossed around a lot and even though Gaider said there were dark skinned people to the north, that doesn't mean they are black. When describing a person who is black you can't say they are dark skinned because it doesn't apply. You are either black or you aren't black and saying a person is dark skinned is NOT the same as alluding to them being black.

I haven't ducked the question. I simply asked "what being black" has to do with anything. Me explaining what it means to be black has ZERO relevance on the topic at hand.

I haven't forgotten anything. I brought up a topic about diversity, not about what it is to be black.

I'm not sure why you are quoting that block of text because that has nothing to do with a meaning of being black. That was said to show that anyone dark than a white person can be called dark skinned and not necessarity black.

Modifié par GEWill, 16 février 2010 - 07:48 .

[WhyIsThisNecessary]

You do realise that the Normans (the french) conquered England.

Normans != French. Normans were descendants of Vikings. 

It really does depend on what you mean by the middle ages, because until the 1700s we were small fry.

 

1700s is the early modern era, though you're right to point out that 'medieval' is a very long stretch of time and that the balance of power was different at different times during the medieval period.  

Look towards Spain and France for the true superpowers. England never occupied "much of France" It occupied Normandy, which in itself wasn't technically part of mainland France, and the French took it back many many times...

And Aquitaine, and all of Northern France down to Orleans. (see: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/1429france.jpg)

Spain was more of an early modern superpower - indeed, it was the first global empire (or was that Portugal?)- than a medieval one. During the medieval period, they were too busy kicking the Moors out of Spain.

If you look at where Thedas is, technologically, which is pre-gunpowder, then Fereldan and England is pretty much at the same level power-terms...

Well, during the medieval period England (under the Normans) was able to conquer Ireland and Scotland to varying degrees, as well as parts of France during the hundred years war. Meanwhile, England in the 1600s (post gunpowder) was very much a backwater. So I'm not sure that's entirely correct. 

Of course, you could legtimately point out that if England had been on the same landmass as France in the same way Fereldan is connected with Orlay, then it would have ended up conquered in the same way at many points in history.

From this we can conclude, that although the various nations of Thadas are based on European nations culturally, it doesn't mean they are historically as well - the existence of the Roman Empire (Tavinter) and Italy (Antivia) should confirm this.

[Q.Q]

Why cant I just enjoy a game without diversity popping up?

A game is a game,its a fantasy game last time I checked blacks arnt really the fantasy.

Lord of the rings for an example unless you count the orcs black.

Also along with others that dont include blacks,like the warhammer fantasy.(not warhammer 40k)

Just let the game be for odins sake.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Vuokseniska wrote...

i just realised, there where no black people in lord of the rings!

What about Uruk-Hai? They might not be black people, but they're BLACK literally.

[Mlai00]

Well, saying orcs or uruks represent African Americans would obviously be a very offensive thing. So you should stop the joking there before the line is crossed.

(Although, for the record, I thought Uruks were Fing awesome and if someone said my ethnicity is like Uruk-Hai I'd be like Fk Yeah!)

Anyways, there are black ppl in LOTR. I believe the Southrons of Harad are a mixture of Africans and Arabs. The movies diluted that alot, in order to avoid the racism. The oliphant-tamers were turned into generic barbarians of uncertain ethnicity and culture -- they were supposed to be Black, I think. The closest Arab-thing the movies showed was when the patrol soldier was looking for Frodo and Sam hiding under the cape, and you can see his turban, heavy mascara, and dark-olive skin color clearly. We never see a full uncovered face.

[Vaylemn]

Yozaro wrote...

It's a fantasy game with a made-up world. I don't understand how somebody can possibly wonder why some specific race/nation/religion is not represented in the game.

And why is it that players only wonder why there is no black people (though Gaider told that there actually is black people)? Because they are the only ones not shown? No, can't be the reason, since I didn't see any Asian people or any signs of Christians, Jews or Muslims in the game either.

I agree, the reason I play dragon age is not because I want to be in a digitalized setting of the world I actually live in with stereotypical comparisons between races and people. I want some variations that you cannot find on Earth.
That being said, I tend to think of Thedas as a world in another galaxy and universe, created in someone's imagination. Also, I don't agree that people in a game should encompass all ethnicity, race, and color of those on Earth. Let the people of the game have their own culture and race.
Then again, some might interpret that there are "white" people in the game and so they might question why their own color/race/ethnicity is not represented, and I can see why someone might come up with that, but I myself being asian tend to look past all of these trivial things, even though I can't find my own race in games. I tend to think of the game as a possibility of a different universe, which concerns the unproven string theory and theory of the multiverses, which claims the existence of infinte universes because actions are cause and effects of possibilities and choices an individual makes, rather than destiny.
And quoting from something Owain, the tranquil, said, which goes something like this; I am a person, I am made up of the same things you are and I have intangible memories of my past. This is also similar to what Dr. Manhattan said from the movie Watchmen. The only reason why questions as such from the original post might exist is because of biased interpretations clouded by emotions and not absolute reason, and thus leaving questions of games representing different races as something much more technical or practical.

However, this is only my interpretation of how to look at fantasy games, which tends to ehance my experience a bit.

Modifié par Vaylemn, 17 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[Jace Surana]

GEWill wrote...

Jace Surana wrote...

GEWill wrote...

If this person actually thinks Duncan was black all hope is lost because its obvious they have never seen a black person and I know that is quite possible since we don't occupy all cities in the United States.

Ho boy. Okay, the problem is this...

Pay close attention now...

There is no United States in Thedas. Thedas, unlike earth, is an entirely different world. It's a fictional world. Fictional, as in not real. Duncan, imo, was a black person in that fictional world. Not held by the same standards for black people that you hold for earth, the non-fictional world we live in, but still he was dark-skinned and actually quite ethnic. Mayhaps their version of black, at least that's what I think. And by the way, not all black people look the same, so maybe your standards for black don't mean as much to others as they do to you? Perhaps they had some light-skinned ethnic ppl in DAO that you didn't notice? Just a thought.

Anyway, bringing up the USA as a reference to how black people should look in DAO (Or how you think they should look) is pointless since, as I already pointed out:

USA = real world country

Ferelden = fictional fantasy elf, dwarf, and dragon-filled country.

No matter how you word your response, my reply remains the same.

If YOU think Duncan is Black you have obvious NEVER seen a black person because Duncan is white.

Maybe you should adjust the colors on your monitor or TV because he is a shade darker than Alistair.

You just wasted your time typing out a long reply when you seem to be the only person that think Duncan is black.

(sigh)

Whatever you say, Malcolm X. (insert roll-eyes and laugh at you here)

I am black, thsnk you. So obviously I would know what black people look like. In the real world. On earth.

I also know that Duncan is cocoa-colored, and not from Ferelden, two facts that hint at ethnicity. He may be Ferelden's version of a black (or at least, ethnic) man. Unless you're one of the people that made Dragon Age: Origins, which I doubt, you can't know for sure. And again, if you're comparing his "blackness" to African Americans in the USA, then it is you who is wasting your time, because, as I said before, America is real. Ferelden is not.

So please, give it a break. The topic of this thread reeks of fail, anyway.

Modifié par Jace Surana, 17 février 2010 - 02:12 .

[J-all]

In Lothering I think you can find three black people not dark skinned but actually black and they are all members of the chantry. (don't no why) You can believe all this based on Europe keeping with lore stuff it may have some truth to it but at best I think its just a easy out.I noticed the lack of diversity in the game as well the reason we noticed is because we are black.I knew if this was to come up it would be posted by someone black. The same reason you don't see blacks on certain t.v. shows unless they throw in the token. The t.v. shows Im refereeing to are base in MODERN AMERICA. I believe its a situation of made by the for the. People mostly olny address things that involved them directly so most European americas wouldn't notice such a problem becaue they are well represented. Dragon age gets a pass becaue they can hide behind the region of the game reasoning.







This post is address to the GEWill. Any one else if you read this and are offend know this im not racist and this was not address to you. Idca