1118 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonp382]

Adanu wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

...

Of all the things to complain about, you pick this?

If you don't want your character to be around, then don't import him. In this case, gameplay trumps story. I had one character do the sacrifice. But I still want to play as him in the next one... so, I either make the new character , or I import my character and the story is changed so that being revived makes sense. I see no problems here. I only see people nitpicking minor details.

It's a role-playing game. What do you expect? The decisions and resulting outcomes/story are the gameplay.

Incorrect. Gameplay is gameplay. Story is not gameplay. That's like saying blizzard is part of the story.

I'm not saying the story is gameplay. You don't care about what your Wardens did in the first game?

For me(and others) playing through the game with a character with a set of beliefs and agenda is the fun. We like to make choices that have outcome on the story. When they all of a sudden don't matter, why bother? There goes all the gameplay goodness.

Modifié par Jonp382, 14 février 2010 - 11:12 .

[emynii]

I'd be happy if they made the decision to revive your PC have some sort of consequence. Like, you chose to bring back your warden one of three things happen:



-The Dark Ritual is performed

-Alistair is dead

-Loghain is dead and Alistair hates you.



That way it keeps the situation canon, there's a repercussion to your decision, and people aren't going to kill off their wardens just so they don't have to make the hard decision of who dies.

[Adanu]

TheMadCat wrote...

And what incredibly important detail should everyone be focusing their complaining powers on Adanu? I see nothing wrong with this complaint, an ending has been made nonexistent for the most part after all, I see more validity here then people complaining about their gear not going over.

I only have two complaints, one more valid than the other. DLC items should be imported. Using the toolset can fix this, but it is still a pain. The less 'issuey' complaint I have is this 'no world state' import for the Orlesian Warden. However, with all the possible combinations and whatnot from the original story, I don't blame them for that for an expansion. If you want your choices to be reflected, import an 'alive' save.

That said:

nonexistant? Thats you twisting their words around. You could make a 'techincal' case via the dead warden thing, but that's not the same thing.

Jonp382 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

...

Of all the things to complain about, you pick this?

If
you don't want your character to be around, then don't import him. In
this case, gameplay trumps story. I had one character do the sacrifice.
But I still want to play as him in the next one... so, I either make
the new character , or I import my character and the story is changed
so that being revived makes sense. I see no problems here. I only see
people nitpicking minor details.

It's a role-playing game. What do you expect? The decisions and resulting outcomes/story are the gameplay.

Incorrect. Gameplay is gameplay. Story is not gameplay. That's like saying blizzard is part of the story.

I'm not saying the story is gameplay. You don't care about what your Wardens did in the first game?

For
me(and others) playing through the game with a character with a set of
beliefs and agenda is the fun. We like to make choices that have
outcome on the story. When they all of a sudden don't matter, why
bother? There goes all the gameplay goodness.

It's a bit hard to take you seriously when you do a complete 180 on your 'story is gameplay', but you did to amend obviously foolhardy assertions, so I can forgive that.

That said... you *can import your choices* with your Origins save. I hardly call that 'don't matter'.

Modifié par Adanu, 14 février 2010 - 11:19 .

[Jonp382]

Adanu wrote...

It's a bit hard to take you seriously when you do a complete 180 on your 'story is gameplay', but you did to amend obviously foolhardy assertions, so I can forgive that.

That said... you *can import your choices* with your Origins save. I hardly call that 'don't matter'.

I never ment specifically story is gameplay, I ment choices relating to the story and outcomes are the gameplay. When my choices don't actually make outcomes, well why call them choices? Choices are no longer part of the gameplay.(Sorry for the redundancy of words, want to be clearer)

Yes I know you can import your dead Warden, but as has been pointed out I can't do an Orlesian with my dead Warden's choices. That's 'not matters' to me, but maybe DA:O-A pulls a ME2, I haven't looked at the trailers.

Modifié par Jonp382, 14 février 2010 - 11:32 .

[Mordaedil]

... ****ing dammit.



I need to finish my playthrough.

[TheMadCat]

nonexistant? Thats you twisting their words around. You could make a 'techincal' case via the dead warden thing, but that's not the same thing.

Depends on how you look at it. If the choices you make for this particular ending alongside the ending itself are ignored while every other ending and the choices made during the game are imported, doesn't that kind of show that Bioware isn't quite focused on it as they are the others. Nonexistent may have been a bad choice of words, so I'll rephrase it to much less important.



But I do agree with your other assessment, plenty of other choices to make if this situation does bug you enough. Still, I think there is a valid reason for complaints.

[Spitz6860]

i'm not sure i understand the complaint. so what would you want Bioware to do? i'm sure you'll be pissed if they bring him back to life somehow, so would you prefer there be no expansions or sequels at all?

[Ponce de Leon]

Quite massive in game spoilers!









I don't see that much of a problem. I simply won't import who is dead. My favorite run, my female dwarven noble warrior did the ultimate sacrifice, and as much as I'd like her to continue, I can't. She stays dead. Instead, I will use another run, which was the most perfect, in my opinion. With everyone's disposal ranging from 75 to 100, Loghain alive, Alistair and Anora the rulers, dark ritual performed.

It still might be fun to try however, and see how a run with a dead warden goes. Want to see how much changes.

As for the canonical image of Dragon Age, I am pretty sure it will be this :

Human Noble Male romancing Morrigan, killed Loghain and had Alistair king = the character BioWare puts in their videos. I myself wouldn't be happy of such canonical image, since I like pissing off Morrigan for good and refusing her ritual. In fact, I ****** her off so much that I even leave Flemeth alive to take the young witch. It's the only kind of revenge I can have with her.

[TheMadCat]

Spitz6860 wrote...

i'm not sure i understand the complaint. so what would you want Bioware to do? i'm sure you'll be pissed if they bring him back to life somehow, so would you prefer there be no expansions or sequels at all?

Most people just want the choices made by the dead warden to be carried over so they are reflected when they play with the new warden.

[_- Songlian -]

Spitz6860 wrote...

i'm not sure i understand the complaint. so what would you want Bioware to do?

It's not that I have a thing specifically against a Warden being revived, there are tons of games out there who start with this premise. It's just that I don't agree to it being allowed under these conditions. If Origins were to stop right as you plunged the sword into the Archdemon's head and then the credits would have rolled, I would have been perfectly fine with a "something happened and you didn't actually die" explanation. But that is not the case. You had a funeral. A funeral. People came to pay their respects, Alistair delivered a nice speech, Zevran never loved again, so on and so forth. How do you get past your own funeral? 

Needless to say, my Dalish Grey Warden will remain dead in Awakening. 

[metatheurgist]

tbh, they were always going to take a canon position, so this is merely a pre-emptive strike. Ppl get PO'd now that their decisions don't matter rather than further down the track where it's become even harder to program the various permutations players will have made. Eventually it'll become more work to code for the permutations than to create new content and they'll have to draw a line. Looks like they decided sooner was better than later.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

How utterly stupid.

I recall during the development when one of the writers said they wanted a setting where death had meaning. So much for that. Apparently ‘ultimate sacrifice’ is more like ‘temporary inconvenience.’

Honestly, I’d have thought that ME 2 showed how little BioWare cares about choices and consequences, but this is a new low.

I agree, what is more baffling is that they have the framework

A)  You "supposedly" import decisions of your character if they survived to begin with
  You can start a new character if yours died, an Orlesian Warden

Why not put both together?  Because that would only make sense, I mean seriously what is the point of the Orlesian Warden if the Ultimate Sacrifice wasn't its intent?

[Spitz6860]

okay, i just read the official FAQ for awakening and i think i see where you guys coming from now. so you don't want a dead warden back but you want all his/her decisions made in Origins to be carried over to Awakening. yeah, that sounds reasonable enough, it would be nice if Bioware offers both options.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Adanu wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

...

Of all the things to complain about, you pick this?

If you don't want your character to be around, then don't import him. In this case, gameplay trumps story. I had one character do the sacrifice. But I still want to play as him in the next one... so, I either make the new character , or I import my character and the story is changed so that being revived makes sense. I see no problems here. I only see people nitpicking minor details.

It's a role-playing game. What do you expect? The decisions and resulting outcomes/story are the gameplay.

Incorrect. Gameplay is gameplay. Story is not gameplay. That's like saying blizzard is part of the story.

Oh please give me a break.  If this Expansion came with the tagline "Made to correct sizable balance and interface issues" Then I'd be slightly less upset.  But come on in DA the story is a factor of the gameplay, and from a major release that should be expected.  If I wanted more gameplay I'd DL some mods, worked for me in NWN.  

And specifically to clarify the Story is what drives the gameplay in DA.  And I can guarantee you that alot of us played DA more for the story presentation and the characters than the actual gameplay.  Which was fine, but not the key factor for me.  I like the actual gameplay of other games more than DA :/

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 14 février 2010 - 12:19 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Jonp382 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

It's a bit hard to take you seriously when you do a complete 180 on your 'story is gameplay', but you did to amend obviously foolhardy assertions, so I can forgive that.

That said... you *can import your choices* with your Origins save. I hardly call that 'don't matter'.

I never ment specifically story is gameplay, I ment choices relating to the story and outcomes are the gameplay. When my choices don't actually make outcomes, well why call them choices? Choices are no longer part of the gameplay.(Sorry for the redundancy of words, want to be clearer)

Yes I know you can import your dead Warden, but as has been pointed out I can't do an Orlesian with my dead Warden's choices. That's 'not matters' to me, but maybe DA:O-A pulls a ME2, I haven't looked at the trailers.

To be fair at no point in the original Mass Effect did your character die.  I mean if you didn't follow the teaser trailers beforehand, some of which lied by the way you would have no way of knowing what would happen at the start.  Hell all I knew was that the Normandy was destroyed and to be perfectly honest Saren's character in the first game made the whole rebuilt thing make some sense.  In DA there are some ways but that still doesn't explain the point of the Orlesian Warden.

[Feraele]

Maria Caliban wrote...

How utterly stupid.

I recall during the development when one of the writers said they wanted a setting where death had meaning. So much for that. Apparently ‘ultimate sacrifice’ is more like ‘temporary inconvenience.’

Honestly, I’d have thought that ME 2 showed how little BioWare cares about choices and consequences, but this is a new low.

Huh..did I miss something?   I thought if you sacrificed, there was a statue erected outside Vigil's Keep in Amaranthine..with your dead warden's name on it..plus you are entombed at Weishopt....when did this change??

If you can play as your dead Warden..that kind of ruins story continuity doesn't it.

Whats up Bioware, what are you thinking?   Are you thinking too many folks complained that they couldn't play their dead warden character?    If so..don't bend to that......please.

Doesn't make sense, unless of course you plan to have the dead Warden come back in cameos and "haunt" the new party.  lol

[Feraele]

darrenr22 wrote...

I have to admit the whole idea seems ridiculous to me. That said, I won't be doing it so it won't affect me at all. I am not going to sit around worrying about how other people are choosing to play.

What concerns me more is that at present it seems there is no option to import an ultimate sacrifice save and continue as the new Orlesian Warden, having the original Warden's choices reflected in the expansion. I am still mystified as to why this option has not been included.

This is what I thought would happen...import the dead Warden...option comes up to create the new Orlesian Warden..with references such as the statue at Vigil's Keep to remind you of the GW's sacrifice..plus the tomb at Weishopt.

Wonder if they ran into too many technical difficulties to set it up that way, and opted for an "easier" way to do it?

Disappointing if so.

[Freezingfire]

Feraele wrote...

Wonder if they ran into too many technical difficulties to set it up that way, and opted for an "easier" way to do it?

Disappointing if so.

Indeed, especially since they could have delayed the expansion(date came awfully fast). Seeing as no one really expects an expansion 5 months after the original game.

[Vicious]

So someone PLEASE explain to me the point of the Orlesian Warden, then? I'm guessing it's some kind of DAO story where the original protagonist never existed and Alistair did everything that the protagonist did?

[Feraele]

Freezingfire wrote...

Feraele wrote...

Wonder if they ran into too many technical difficulties to set it up that way, and opted for an "easier" way to do it?

Disappointing if so.

Indeed, especially since they could have delayed the expansion(date came awfully fast). Seeing as no one really expects an expansion 5 months after the original game.

LOL you do realize if that happened...(delayed expansion) these forums would erupt in massive flames.   Just look what happened over RTO.....heh don't think I want to witness all that again, and I am sure the moderators don't want to either.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Vicious wrote...

So someone PLEASE explain to me the point of the Orlesian Warden, then? I'm guessing it's some kind of DAO story where the original protagonist never existed and Alistair did everything that the protagonist did?

That is exactly what I want to know.  Is this a stand alone Expansion or one that requires the original game?  I mean if it is SA that would be the only explanation for having an Orlesian Warden.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 14 février 2010 - 12:46 .

[Feraele]

Vicious wrote...

So someone PLEASE explain to me the point of the Orlesian Warden, then? I'm guessing it's some kind of DAO story where the original protagonist never existed and Alistair did everything that the protagonist did?

No idea...but I intend to leave my dead Warden dead......HOPEFULLY...what they said before still holds true.   On the epilogue story..."supposedly"   your dead Warden is buried at  Weishopt...entombed.    "Supposedly" the new king erected a statue in your memory at the new Vigil's Keep..

I wonder how much of that has changed due to these new announcements.   If none of that happens, would definitely break the story continuity for me.   

[darrenr22]

Feraele wrote...

darrenr22 wrote...

I have to admit the whole idea seems ridiculous to me. That said, I won't be doing it so it won't affect me at all. I am not going to sit around worrying about how other people are choosing to play.

What concerns me more is that at present it seems there is no option to import an ultimate sacrifice save and continue as the new Orlesian Warden, having the original Warden's choices reflected in the expansion. I am still mystified as to why this option has not been included.

This is what I thought would happen...import the dead Warden...option comes up to create the new Orlesian Warden..with references such as the statue at Vigil's Keep to remind you of the GW's sacrifice..plus the tomb at Weishopt.

Wonder if they ran into too many technical difficulties to set it up that way, and opted for an "easier" way to do it?

Disappointing if so.

But that is precisely what is so mystifying. From a technical point of view it would seem to be the importing of decisions and having them reflected in the expansion that would be the tricky part. But they have already implemented that. By comparison it would seem to be a very minor technical step to simply modify it so that you play the Orlesian Warden with those decisions. It just seems that the really difficult stuff has already been done and I cannot understand why they are not going that extra yard to legitimate the ultimate sacrifice ending and make it properly compatible with the expansion.

[Feraele]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

How utterly stupid.

I recall during the development when one of the writers said they wanted a setting where death had meaning. So much for that. Apparently ‘ultimate sacrifice’ is more like ‘temporary inconvenience.’

Honestly, I’d have thought that ME 2 showed how little BioWare cares about choices and consequences, but this is a new low.

I agree, what is more baffling is that they have the framework

A)  You "supposedly" import decisions of your character if they survived to begin with
  You can start a new character if yours died, an Orlesian Warden

Why not put both together?  Because that would only make sense, I mean seriously what is the point of the Orlesian Warden if the Ultimate Sacrifice wasn't its intent?

Indeed...we were told before you couldn't play your dead warden, but you could start a new Orlesian character.   They also stated that decisions made in Origins would impact or follow through in Awakening.

So what has changed?   I put it down to problems with programming it all in...maybe too many variables to get it released by March 16th?

Maybe I hit the nail on the head.................