1118 réponses à ce sujet

[Rylor Tormtor]

Madriker wrote...

Dead Warden is dead. At least, s/he should be. Allowing one to import their Warden that made the sacrifice, without any explanation as to how they came back to life, just doesn't make sense story-wise. You want to use your Origins character in Awakening? There're options towards the end of the game that help you avoid death, I suggest choosing 'em.

Serisously. Can you people read?

Rylor Tormtor wrote...



Let
me reiterate for the nth time. Noone here cares if you import your dead
warden to play or not. If you want to, great, knock yourself out, it is
a single player game.

Here is what we care about: If one
chooses to keep their warden dead and not play her/him, then all the
choices you made in Origins are apparently null and void. Nada.
Completely gone. No effect on the world of Orleisan Warden.

What people here would like is the ability to import the CHOICES you made, and play the new Orlesian Warden.

Simple, straight-foward.

Modifié par Rylor Tormtor, 16 février 2010 - 11:54 .

[Dave of Canada]

Madriker wrote...

Dead Warden is dead. At least, s/he should be. Allowing one to import their Warden that made the sacrifice, without any explanation as to how they came back to life, just doesn't make sense story-wise. You want to use your Origins character in Awakening? There're options towards the end of the game that help you avoid death, I suggest choosing 'em.

It was said if the Warden was dead, you played a Warden from Orlais in Awakening. That's what a lot of people were expecting, but now thanks to some miracle we're back alive and kicking and ruining the character.

My character's death brought closure and made the ending of the original a lot better personally than the other ones, but here we have the "SRY LOL RETCON"

[Maedryc]

[quote]Alandros wrote...
<snip>

[/quote]

Right, except the DM in Dragon Age forces you to re-start at a previous point or roll a new character... if you don't adapt it to Dragon Age applying concepts in other RPs mean nothing.
[/quote]

Except that said DM wants us to play in his group. If he acts like a jerk, people will stop playing with him.
The point isn't that Bioware doesn't have the right to to whatever they like with their game, the point is that people will react accordingly. What you do may be perfectly legal, but if you're being a jerk people will tell you that you're a jerk and treat you as such.

Modifié par Maedryc, 17 février 2010 - 01:03 .

[Vicious]

My Warden only looked dead. He woke up a couple days later. For some reason, however, everyone acts like he never died.



lol

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ok, someone needs to explain the technical side of this decision, as it makes no sense to me.

So a resurected warden can still import his decisions. But somehow Bioware can't import the decisions of that same character to the Orlesian Commander....why??

Is this a technical impossibility? Cause I don't see the difference.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[Alandros]

Maedryc wrote...
...

Right so first it isn't that bizarre since that is how the game has worked from beginning (and most single play RPG games in fact), wanted to clear that one up, if people really think it's bizarre they are a bit blind to the game they are playing.  Second, you have completely valid points, I have said multiple times that I think people should be given many options, I have simply rallied against the tone that pretending your Warden didn't die is a huge hole while presenting the concept of moving forward as if your character died but all of a sudden moving to a new character (which doesn't happen anywhere in the base game I might add) isn't a hole as well.  Again I think people should be given options but people shouldn't be deluded that there options don't include additional holes (not that it should prevent them from taking said option if it does give them a better experience, I'm all for that).

Modifié par Alandros, 17 février 2010 - 12:44 .

[draxynnus]

Okay, I haven't read the thread, but the thought does strike me...

What's to stop someone who self-sacrificed simply reloading from an earlier save, accepting the Ritual or letting Alistair or Loghain cop it, and replaying through the ending? Allowing the dead Warden to be imported is basically letting people avoid that hassle. Canonically, I expect it'll be treated as "you took Morrigan's offer after all."

Now, I'd certainly like to see it made possible for an Orlesian Warden to import a self-sacrificed Warden's decisions, but importing "dead" wardens strikes me as simply being a convenience issue - Bioware is essentially saying "Rather than making you replay the ending with a different choice, we're just going to pretend you did".

Modifié par draxynnus, 17 février 2010 - 12:11 .

[Maedryc]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok, someone needs to explain the technical side of this decision, as it makes no sense to me.
So a resurected warden can still import his decisions. But somehow Bioware can't import the decisions of that same character that we can import to the Orlesian Commander....why??
Is this a technical impossibility? Cause I don't see the difference.

I suppose that the problem is that when you start a new game, you can either import a character or create a new one.
In the case of a "dead" warden, they'd have to create a different pattern...roughly, they should import the file containing the dead warden and let you create a new character, ignoring the character that's being imported.
While I don't know how hard to code it is in Awakening, it's certainly more work.

[Tsuga C]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok, someone needs to explain the technical side of this decision, as it makes no sense to me.

So a resurected warden can still import his decisions. But somehow Bioware can't import the decisions of that same character to the Orlesian Commander....why??

Is this a technical impossibility? Cause I don't see the difference.

The variables would have to be extracted from the deceased Warden's file and imported into the expansion sans deceased Warden.  It's possible, but they might not be willing to expend the zots to make it happen.

Doing so would certainly have panache and would enhance the feeling of continuity.  Let's hope that they change their minds. 

[Maferath]

I still have the hope that we will be able to choose a storyline when using the Orlesian Warden; like having a NPC asking who is king/queen in Ferelden etc. Not holding my breath though...


In any case, no statue of my dead Warden outside of Vigil Keep

Modifié par Maferath, 17 février 2010 - 12:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

So it's possible. And yet they won't do it for some reason.... I think I will go back to my mindset when the expansion was first annouced and say: "Why too early?! Take a couple of months more to make it as good as possible!".

[Dave of Canada]

Tsuga C wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok, someone needs to explain the technical side of this decision, as it makes no sense to me.

So a resurected warden can still import his decisions. But somehow Bioware can't import the decisions of that same character to the Orlesian Commander....why??

Is this a technical impossibility? Cause I don't see the difference.

The variables would have to be extracted from the deceased Warden's file and imported into the expansion sans deceased Warden.  It's possible, but they might not be willing to expend the zots to make it happen.

Doing so would certainly have panache and would enhance the feeling of continuity.  Let's hope that they change their minds. 

Doubt it, it's near the final weeks before release. They wouldn't completely go over it again, but you can expect to hear this being referenced as one of Bioware's screw ups for months to come.

[RurouniSaiya-jin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok, someone needs to explain the technical side of this decision, as it makes no sense to me.

So a resurected warden can still import his decisions. But somehow Bioware can't import the decisions of that same character to the Orlesian Commander....why??

Is this a technical impossibility? Cause I don't see the difference.

If you read the quote I posted, it isn't a technical issue. It's a design issue. The reactivity they created for the import save feature is only valuable if you are the character that made the choices. This is purely speculation on my part but I believe this implies a lot of the value of the import save feature will be based on your character's interactions with other characters and not at the world level. As a result, even if they offered you the choice to take your choices from the dead Warden and put it on a new character, a lot of the value of the reactivity of the import save feature would be lost because they designed a lot of the reactivity to be personal to the character that made it so a lot of the reactivity wouldn't apply to the new character. In short, the difference between playing a new character and a new character with the dead warden's choices is probably very little.

[Maedryc]

Alandros wrote...

...eh? Nope, man...the former is a big hole because in real life (and in the context of this game ), dead people aren't just resurrected without a reason.
The latter makes sense because, since player=/= character, you're not dead. Your former character is. That makes perfect sense...you just switch your former POV with a new POV when the old one becomes nonfunctional, but the story remains pretty beliveable.
Think of the game as a novel:
1st example: The novel features a group of heroes roaming the countryside. During an unfortunate fight with some bandits, one of the heroes dies. His friends mourn his passing and give him a grand funeral.
Three pages later, the hero is again in the group, without any explanation.

2nd exaple: Same group of heroes. Same bandits. Same dead character. Same funeral.
Three pages later, the remaining heroes meet another companion and they resume their adventures.

Which example makes sense from a logical standpoint and which one doesn't?

Modifié par Maedryc, 17 février 2010 - 01:05 .

[Alandros]

Maedryc wrote...
...

I never said that it wasn't a hole, but that changes events so there is no need for consequences to death that never happened.  They admit in the FAQ it is one.  If you are arguing that it is indeed a hole you are arguing against no one since I'm definitely not arguing it isn't.

On the other hand if the game treats your death as your story ends so either a) re-load or create a new character and then suddenly treats your ending differently, well that seems quite inconsistent.  On top throughout the entire game you have one identity, this identity is reinforced by your origins story and all of your choices in the game, you are built to feel that the "role" you "play" is that character.  Suddenly the "role" you "play" is a different character but as if you had played through with your previous character, again that's another inconsistency.  Sure it could be interesting and fun, but when your identity is built to be someone and that person dies then moving to a new identity in the same story thread is odd, especially since it doesn't happen any of the other times you die in the game (you are forced in all other cases to keep the same identity).

They both are holes in there own ways, I think both -should- be options since the fun experience often should rule over potential holes.  Giving people the -choice- means you don't have to have a hole either way if you don't want to. 

A novel comparison only goes so far since the perspective in novels are quite different, some of which have only one perspective.  On top of that the entire crux of this issue is the choice to have different endings, something that novels can't compare to at all.

It is indeed ok to agree to disagree

EDIT: This conversation is pointless we obviously disagree on one thing and actually agree on a couple points.

Modifié par Alandros, 17 février 2010 - 12:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

RurouniSaiya-jin wrote...
If you read the quote I posted, it isn't a technical issue. It's a design issue. The reactivity they created for the import save feature is only valuable if you are the character that made the choices. This is purely speculation on my part but I believe this implies a lot of the value of the import save feature will be based on your character's interactions with other characters and not at the world level. As a result, even if they offered you the choice to take your choices from the dead Warden and put it on a new character, a lot of the value of the reactivity of the import save feature would be lost because they designed a lot of the reactivity to be personal to the character that made it so a lot of the reactivity wouldn't apply to the new character. In short, the difference between playing a new character and a new character with the dead warden's choices is probably very little.

If that's what's bothering them, then they are wrong.
I was actually looking forward to play as an Orlesian in the shadow of my dead PC (who wasn't even my "main" one). It adds alot of msytique to the prievous PC and shows some relevence to the choice of US. They didn't have to show much. Just NPCs briefly decribing the original PC, his race, origins and his decisions. How hard is that?
And yet that would have added an almost mystical presence to your dead PC. You would be thinking "I am living the world my prievous PC shaped". How awesome is that?
Because now, I see 0, absolutely 0 reason to start out as an Orlesian commander. There is no way I am going to get attached to the new guy. The only way I could do that is if I could see the consequences of my dead PC via the Orlesian. It would have added some personality to the guy. Would he be jealous of living in the shadow of his predecessor? Or would he idolise him? Or would he not care? We would have been able to provide the Orlesian with a state of mind that I find invaluable in an RPG.
But now, I see no point in playing the Orlesian at all.
All that, in addition to the ****** poor treatment of the US ending.
Add to that, that the "default" ending is probably goign to be crap. If my Orlesian Warden can't meet up with Loghain and see how he reacts, then all the more reason not to play as an Orlesian.  
 
If that was a design choice, then it's fail. Easily Bioware's greatest screw up.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 février 2010 - 12:37 .

[Maedryc]

Alandros wrote...
<snip>

...the perspective is exactly the same as the aforementioned novel  The "hole" in the narration is not about you, is about how someone else would perceive the story. In other words, when you have to handwave something ("you didn't really die") then you have a logical hole, when you don't have to, you don't have to strain any logic.
The fact that you're going to play a different character doesn't matter, because the fact that you're changing your character happens offscreen, thus it doesn't really impact the narration in a negative way.
Anyway, I won't argue any further, we can agree to disagree, as you said

Modifié par Maedryc, 17 février 2010 - 01:03 .

[Alandros]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

RurouniSaiya-jin wrote...
If you read the quote I posted, it isn't a technical issue. It's a design issue. The reactivity they created for the import save feature is only valuable if you are the character that made the choices. This is purely speculation on my part but I believe this implies a lot of the value of the import save feature will be based on your character's interactions with other characters and not at the world level. As a result, even if they offered you the choice to take your choices from the dead Warden and put it on a new character, a lot of the value of the reactivity of the import save feature would be lost because they designed a lot of the reactivity to be personal to the character that made it so a lot of the reactivity wouldn't apply to the new character. In short, the difference between playing a new character and a new character with the dead warden's choices is probably very little.

If that's what's bothering them, then they are wrong.
I was actually looking forward to play as an Orlesian in the shadow of my dead PC (who wasn't even my "main" one). It adds alot of msytique to the prievous PC and shows some relevence to the choice of US. They didn't have to show much. Just NPCs briefly decribing the original PC, his race, origins and his decisions. How hard is that?
And yet that would have added an almost mystical presence to your dead PC. You would be thinking "I am living the world my prievous PC shaped". How awesome is that?
Because now, I see 0, absolutely 0 reason to start out as an Orlesian commander. There is no way I am going to get attached to the new guy. The only way I could do that is if I could see the consequences of my dead PC via the Orlesian. It would have added some personality to the guy. Would he be jealous of living in the shadow of his predecessor? Or would he idolise him? Or would he not care? We would have been able to provide the Orlesian with a state of mind that I find invaluable in an RPG.
But now, I see no point in playing the Orlesian at all.
All that, in addition to the ****** poor treatment of the US ending.
Add to that, that the "default" ending is probably goign to be crap. If my Orlesian Warden can't meet up with Loghain and see how he reacts, then all the more reason not to play as an Orlesian.  
 
If that was a design choice, then it's fail. Easily Bioware's greatest screw up.

Though I disagree with the severity of it, I agree.  Playing through and hearing the comments and stories (the impact) of your former character would be quite the experience, would definitely make playing through as the Orlesian Warden worth it, just for that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maedric and Alandros, would you pelase stop quoting each other? All that useless quoting can be replaced by a simple @ [insert name].

[Dave of Canada]

This page imploded on itself or something.

[shedevil3001]

theres alot of angry people over this us grey warden problem i understand why though it really is a daft idea you die then wham your alive again with no explanation how messed up is that

[flem1]

Call it the "Useless Sacrifice".  Or "Unacceptable Sacrifice".  Or "Uncanonical Sacrifice".

Modifié par flem1, 17 février 2010 - 01:01 .

[shedevil3001]

lol it kind of defeats the point of the sacrifice i know what were bioware and ea thinking when they decided to allow such a thing

[Maedryc]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maedric and Alandros, would you pelase stop quoting each other? All that useless quoting can be replaced by a simple @ [insert name].

Yeah, sorry, I've edited my posts...the layout of the page seems to be back to normal now.

[Darkkyn46]

I may be way off base here, maybe people don't play as I do but... I pretty much play the same guy (dual wielding rogue) over and over. I play as a human noble mostly, and a couple of times I did both elves all the way through, other choices just to see how the origin played out. But Darkkyn the human noble DW rogue has finished the game a bunch of different ways, including the Ultimate Sacrifice. From what I read it seems that a lot of people play that way (trying out the multiple endings), so are you really relegated to resurrecting a character for Awakenings, or don't you have one that didn't die. I could see people being upset if you made the choice to kill your toon without knowing about the import, but multiple toons aren't a limitation so I don't see what the fuss is.