1118 réponses à ce sujet

[saintratchet]

ok so lemme get this straight u choose not to import your warden and your choices are gone

tats more retarded than being able to lazarus project your warden back to life.

[RurouniSaiya-jin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If that's what's bothering them, then they are wrong.
I was actually looking forward to play as an Orlesian in the shadow of my dead PC (who wasn't even my "main" one). It adds alot of msytique to the prievous PC and shows some relevence to the choice of US. They didn't have to show much. Just NPCs briefly decribing the original PC, his race, origins and his decisions. How hard is that?
And yet that would have added an almost mystical presence to your dead PC. You would be thinking "I am living the world my prievous PC shaped". How awesome is that?
Because now, I see 0, absolutely 0 reason to start out as an Orlesian commander. There is no way I am going to get attached to the new guy. The only way I could do that is if I could see the consequences of my dead PC via the Orlesian. It would have added some personality to the guy. Would he be jealous of living in the shadow of his predecessor? Or would he idolise him? Or would he not care? We would have been able to provide the Orlesian with a state of mind that I find invaluable in an RPG.
But now, I see no point in playing the Orlesian at all.
All that, in addition to the ****** poor treatment of the US ending.
Add to that, that the "default" ending is probably goign to be crap. If my Orlesian Warden can't meet up with Loghain and see how he reacts, then all the more reason not to play as an Orlesian.  
 
If that was a design choice, then it's fail. Easily Bioware's greatest screw up.

While I respect your opinion on this matter, I don't think it's a well formed opinion. You can't just say their design choice is wrong. Part of making a design choice is looking at everything as a whole. You don't even know the whole story of Awakening and how things will play out. Don't get me wrong, a lot of your ideas sound great. But in context, they might not make any sense or work at all. Did Bioware make the wrong call? Possibly, possibly not. But it's way too earlier to say that one way or another.

[KnightofPhoenix]

RurouniSaiya-jin wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If that's what's bothering them, then they are wrong.
I was actually looking forward to play as an Orlesian in the shadow of my dead PC (who wasn't even my "main" one). It adds alot of msytique to the prievous PC and shows some relevence to the choice of US. They didn't have to show much. Just NPCs briefly decribing the original PC, his race, origins and his decisions. How hard is that?
And yet that would have added an almost mystical presence to your dead PC. You would be thinking "I am living the world my prievous PC shaped". How awesome is that?
Because now, I see 0, absolutely 0 reason to start out as an Orlesian commander. There is no way I am going to get attached to the new guy. The only way I could do that is if I could see the consequences of my dead PC via the Orlesian. It would have added some personality to the guy. Would he be jealous of living in the shadow of his predecessor? Or would he idolise him? Or would he not care? We would have been able to provide the Orlesian with a state of mind that I find invaluable in an RPG.
But now, I see no point in playing the Orlesian at all.
All that, in addition to the ****** poor treatment of the US ending.
Add to that, that the "default" ending is probably goign to be crap. If my Orlesian Warden can't meet up with Loghain and see how he reacts, then all the more reason not to play as an Orlesian.  
 
If that was a design choice, then it's fail. Easily Bioware's greatest screw up.

While I respect your opinion on this matter, I don't think it's a well formed opinion. You can't just say their design choice is wrong. Part of making a design choice is looking at everything as a whole. You don't even know the whole story of Awakening and how things will play out. Don't get me wrong, a lot of your ideas sound great. But in context, they might not make any sense or work at all. Did Bioware make the wrong call? Possibly, possibly not. But it's way too earlier to say that one way or another.

So a simple bg info from NPCs that knew your dead PC wouldn't make sense, but a revived warden does?

Anyways, I might have used the wrong word. They aren't "wrong". But their decision is bizarre and I see no plausible justification for it. If it was time they are lacking, then they shouldn't have released the expansion only 5 months after the original was released.   

[Aquamantor]

Most of the people on this forum are (no offense) huge whiners. I am not a whiner. This is the first thing I have a huge problem with Bioware doing. Why? Because it's the single worst decision they've ever made.

It's not the fact that the character is coming back that's bothering me. I was the one who suggested the idea of some kind of noble spirit doing casting a rez spell in the first place. (*Cough* Wynne *Cough*) I don't care if we get some kind of DA:O Lazarus project. I'd welcome it as a convenience. It's the outright laziness that they're doing this with. I mean, just listen to this:

"If a player wants to, they can import their "Dead Warden" into Awakening and play as them. For the story it's assumed that they didn't make the ultimate sacrifice, instead somehow survived. A player would start as the same level with the same gear as their "Dead Warden". Essentially, if a player doesn't have a problem hand-waiving the story in this regard - neither do we.:"

Well, guess what, Bioware? I happen to think that Mr. Gaider and company are pretty damn good writers. I'd hate to hand-waive their story in any way. But you're not even giving me a choice. Either you pull some kind of BS and my character isn't dead anymore, or you pull some kind of BS and my character both auto-choiced as well as conveniently never existed. Either way? You're pulling BS on me. I guess I'll get less BS by importing my character, so I'll go with that. But don't talk about the "hand-waiving" of the story like we have a choice of whether or not we are "hand-waiving" it. Those of us who weren't aware of it ended up "hand-waiving" it the moment we decided to flip off Morrigan, let Alistair live, or even, you know, get a 50g achievement. (not that that was me.)

You know what you do with a faulty product? You take it back and make it better. I recommend a short delay to come up with some better BS, Bioware, because clearly this BS isn't satisfying your audience at all.

Oh yeah, quick note: Almost everyone whose saying that this is okay doesn't sound like they did the Ultimate Sacrifice ending with their main.

Edit: Did I mention that this was BS?

Modifié par Aquamantor, 17 février 2010 - 01:51 .

[Vicious]

I can't play an Orlesian Warden and hear of my previous character. How can I?

Bioware does not let me import my decisions. That's it. The DAO character may as well not exist at all, really, in that playthrough.


AT BEST, the Orlesian Warden gets treated to some alternate reality where the original protagonist never existed and Alistair was man enough to take care of business all by himself.

So I get treated to some 'canon' storyline where my original character never existed or did anything. Which I can totally understand, since Bioware has no problem doing hatchet jobs or blatantly REMOVING characters who didn't cost a voice actor. Just ask Dog. Oh wait, He's gone!

Modifié par Vicious, 17 février 2010 - 01:54 .

[TheMadCat]

At best, the Orlesian Warden gets treated to some alternate reality where the original protagonist never existed and Alistair was man enough to take care of business all by himself.

Nah, they won't do that. I'm sure the story will have the Warden it'll just be laid out through canon.

[Curlain]

Vicious wrote...

I can't play an Orlesian Warden and hear of my previous character. How can I?

Bioware does not let me import my decisions. That's it. The DAO character may as well not exist at all, really, in that playthrough.


AT BEST, the Orlesian Warden gets treated to some alternate reality where the original protagonist never existed and Alistair was man enough to take care of business all by himself.

So I get treated to some 'canon' storyline where my original character never existed or did anything. Which I can totally understand, since Bioware has no problem doing hatchet jobs or blatantly REMOVING characters who didn't cost a voice actor. Just ask Dog. Oh wait, He's gone!

Yep, I suspect that in the Orlesian Warden background Alistair kills the Archdemon and does the Dark Ritual with Morrigan, so I suspect (though I would be happy to be proved wrong) that the Dark Ritual is now canon, and the US never happened, which if so will kinda invalidate it as an ending completely in Original Campaign.

Certainly if they intend the 'Old God Child' thing to be a major plot in DA2 I guess it would be easier if they make it canon now in the expansion

Modifié par Curlain, 17 février 2010 - 02:01 .

[RurouniSaiya-jin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So a simple bg info from NPCs that knew your dead PC wouldn't make sense, but a revived warden does?

Anyways, I might have used the wrong word. They aren't "wrong". But their decision is bizarre and I see no plausible justification for it. If it was time they are lacking, then they shouldn't have released the expansion only 5 months after the original was released.   

Well, that's the thing, if you decide to import your US Warden, you give Bioware the green light to rewrite that part of the story for the purpose of Awakening so that you never died to begin with. The exact specifics of how you escape getting killed remain to be seen, who knows, it could be a brand new ending on its own or they might not even tell you how you survived, that's how little the fact that you did the US or the Dark Ritual could matter from Awakening's perspective. One way or another, continuity will be preserved from a story perspective.

On the other hand, NPCs giving bg info on your dead PC could be problematic story wise depending on how Bioware does the story.  For instance, the only NPCs that could possibly give a detailed history of your character would have to been among your party. This is a problem since most of those people won't be in Awakening. Sure, there are other NPCs that could give a "Snapshot" of your character's history like their time spent in Orzammar or Redcliffe but there's the possibility that a lot of these people decided to stay where they were in Origins and you don't run into them in your adventures in Awakening. There's also the issue of how your Warden would come up in conversation. Other than Oghren, cameos from NPCs in Awakening could be very "just passing through" affairs. They could come to deal with a crisis of their own or possibly brief/inform you of something and then leave as soon as they're done their task, leaving no time for casual talk about your Warden to come up. So it all really depends on the story and how it plays out.

Modifié par RurouniSaiya-jin, 17 février 2010 - 02:19 .

[RPGlover732]

Aquamantor wrote...

Most of the people on this forum are (no offense) huge whiners. I am not a whiner. This is the first thing I have a huge problem with Bioware doing. Why? Because it's the single worst decision they've ever made.

It's not the fact that the character is coming back that's bothering me. I was the one who suggested the idea of some kind of noble spirit doing casting a rez spell in the first place. (*Cough* Wynne *Cough*) I don't care if we get some kind of DA:O Lazarus project. I'd welcome it as a convenience. It's the outright laziness that they're doing this with. I mean, just listen to this:

"If a player wants to, they can import their "Dead Warden" into Awakening and play as them. For the story it's assumed that they didn't make the ultimate sacrifice, instead somehow survived. A player would start as the same level with the same gear as their "Dead Warden". Essentially, if a player doesn't have a problem hand-waiving the story in this regard - neither do we.:"

Well, guess what, Bioware? I happen to think that Mr. Gaider and company are pretty damn good writers. I'd hate to hand-waive their story in any way. But you're not even giving me a choice. Either you pull some kind of BS and my character isn't dead anymore, or you pull some kind of BS and my character both auto-choiced as well as conveniently never existed. Either way? You're pulling BS on me. I guess I'll get less BS by importing my character, so I'll go with that. But don't talk about the "hand-waiving" of the story like we have a choice of whether or not we are "hand-waiving" it. Those of us who weren't aware of it ended up "hand-waiving" it the moment we decided to flip off Morrigan, let Alistair live, or even, you know, get a 50g achievement. (not that that was me.)

You know what you do with a faulty product? You take it back and make it better. I recommend a short delay to come up with some better BS, Bioware, because clearly this BS isn't satisfying your audience at all.

Oh yeah, quick note: Almost everyone whose saying that this is okay doesn't sound like they did the Ultimate Sacrifice ending with their main.

Edit: Did I mention that this was BS?

This post made me laugh, wanna say BS like 50 more times?

Anyway he is right, us US peolpe just got kicked to the curb. I dont care if i come back to life but i do care because of it the story is ruined. Also i didnt mind if he stayed dead... but i just wanted is choices to move on.

Now right now all this US stuff is pretty big on the forums. but when it comes out and it turns out bioware DID for a fact leave us out to dry, there is going to be a massive sh*t storm on these forums and it will probably be very ugly.

[zchen]

It will be a huge disappointment and possible deal breaker for me if all the background/choices of the US warden game is not carried over for the Orelsian warden gameplay

[JKJEDIKNIGHT]

zchen wrote...

It will be a huge disappointment and possible deal breaker for me if all the background/choices of the US warden game is not carried over for the Orelsian warden gameplay

I don't see any need for "clariffication" as it seems so many people want.  It seems pretty straight to me.  When you upload your US Warden, he comes through having NOT done the US.  It's that simple.  You will not get to upload your US Warden to get his decisions, and then start as a new Orlesian Warden.  I do however believe that when we were first told about all of this, that it was explained that we could just upload the choices from the US Warden and then start an Orlesian Warden.  If I could quote someone on that I would, but it was my original interpretation.  It doesn't get any clearer.  However, I do hope someone from BIOWARE will just finally pop on here, confirm what I've just said, and then we can stop hearing the "what do you mean" comments.  It will become, WHY, WHY, WHY??? lol

[Onyx Jaguar]

RPGlover732 wrote...

Aquamantor wrote...

Most of the people on this forum are (no offense) huge whiners. I am not a whiner. This is the first thing I have a huge problem with Bioware doing. Why? Because it's the single worst decision they've ever made.

It's not the fact that the character is coming back that's bothering me. I was the one who suggested the idea of some kind of noble spirit doing casting a rez spell in the first place. (*Cough* Wynne *Cough*) I don't care if we get some kind of DA:O Lazarus project. I'd welcome it as a convenience. It's the outright laziness that they're doing this with. I mean, just listen to this:

"If a player wants to, they can import their "Dead Warden" into Awakening and play as them. For the story it's assumed that they didn't make the ultimate sacrifice, instead somehow survived. A player would start as the same level with the same gear as their "Dead Warden". Essentially, if a player doesn't have a problem hand-waiving the story in this regard - neither do we.:"

Well, guess what, Bioware? I happen to think that Mr. Gaider and company are pretty damn good writers. I'd hate to hand-waive their story in any way. But you're not even giving me a choice. Either you pull some kind of BS and my character isn't dead anymore, or you pull some kind of BS and my character both auto-choiced as well as conveniently never existed. Either way? You're pulling BS on me. I guess I'll get less BS by importing my character, so I'll go with that. But don't talk about the "hand-waiving" of the story like we have a choice of whether or not we are "hand-waiving" it. Those of us who weren't aware of it ended up "hand-waiving" it the moment we decided to flip off Morrigan, let Alistair live, or even, you know, get a 50g achievement. (not that that was me.)

You know what you do with a faulty product? You take it back and make it better. I recommend a short delay to come up with some better BS, Bioware, because clearly this BS isn't satisfying your audience at all.

Oh yeah, quick note: Almost everyone whose saying that this is okay doesn't sound like they did the Ultimate Sacrifice ending with their main.

Edit: Did I mention that this was BS?

This post made me laugh, wanna say BS like 50 more times?

Anyway he is right, us US peolpe just got kicked to the curb. I dont care if i come back to life but i do care because of it the story is ruined. Also i didnt mind if he stayed dead... but i just wanted is choices to move on.

Now right now all this US stuff is pretty big on the forums. but when it comes out and it turns out bioware DID for a fact leave us out to dry, there is going to be a massive sh*t storm on these forums and it will probably be very ugly.

*Edit, sentence didn't make sense, can't think of anything proper to say at the moment :/

*EDIT 2, yeah I completely agree.  I have also argued against the whole "Canon Morrigan thing" that people are arguing for because I personally think it is a crappy plot element akin to the Legend of the Holy Grail, which was only good when it was spoofed in my opinion (I know its a classic, but there are other stories that had more substance at the time in my opinion), and if they do not allow you to import the Dead Warden where they are actually 100% dead, as in their soul is destroyed, then it just seems like they are on their way in making the "sleep with Morrigan" thing canon sometime down the line.  Which sucks in my opinion because of the choices presented it was clearly the easy way out and had no real meaning.  I mean even having Loghain sacrifice himself was rather tough, but your character being sacrficed was the single most meaningful act you do in the game and it looks like it might be tossed out either for technical reasons or because at some point a couple of writers thought they could do more with the one night stand option.  Because DA: Origins was all about a great plague brought on the nation because of sex.  Unless you consider Alistair a plague of course, or if the Broodmothers have to be "fertilized"

Now I am just ranting and mumbling about nonsense.  I think I'll stop for now.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 17 février 2010 - 04:36 .

[Azure Zero]

Feraele wrote...

Azure Zero wrote...

Feraele wrote...


Yeah we know all that...and THAT choice is fine for someone who doesn't care about story lines..plot holes etc.

BUT if you already did that run-through all the way to the end...did the "heroic" self-sacrifice..ie: Ultimate Sacrifice..you are not going to be happy with that US being nullified, cast away, due to some folks wanting to play their dead warden.  

There are those of us that care more about the rpg aspect ..than the kill moar mobs and be uber aspect.

This dead warden rising from the tomb in Weisshopt scenario..ALSO nullifies or makes obsolete..the Dark Ritual story line.   In other words...you can always rely on playing your dead warden, and never have to do the ritual with Morrigan....and if you play your dead warden...you never ever made the the Ultimate Sacrifice..a hero's death.   It stops existing.

That breaks the continuity and immersion.

What we are saying is ...that information needs to pass ..from the dead warden, that choices need to be allowed.

So when you import your dead warden to Awakening..there are choices: 

1) you play your dead Warden as if nothing ever happened. 

OR  2) you import your dead warden and you opt to start the new Orlesian warden, WITH history of the former Grey Warden's death ..being passed to the Orlesian, so that the story continues without huge gaping holes in credibility and story line. 

  This could be done possibly in a short cut-scene with the new Orlesian grey warden or in a conversation that happens to pop up at the start.   Doesn't need a long intro.

This is one point I don't agree with, it doesn't break or affect the dark ritual ending. Your character does not know that they may magically  somehow survive due to this. So that storyline still works. We have that knowledge, our characters don't.

Yes WE have that knowledge...but why do the Dark Ritual if you know you can ALWAYS play your dead warden ...there are no repercussions.  Ultimate sacrifice becomes Ultimate get out of jail free card.

Thats perfectly FINE for those that don't care...will play through once or twice and toss the game aside.

Its not perfectly fine for me..and probably  others like me.  It creates a break in continuity...and really is NOT a choice or option.

They just stated..if you don't have a problem playing your dead warden (after being entombed at Weishopt and mourned by all your ingame companions)   then we don't have a problem either.    That creates a big hole in the story.  

Its like there was more to it..more written in..but they ran out of time and budget so only one part of the gamer population got their wish.   And thats the guys that could care less about the rpg aspects, story line..etc.

The rest of us, don't have a choice.   The reason that new Orlesian GW was offered up originally back when Awakenings was announced...they said if your PC died in the Ultimate Sacrifice that you could play the new Orlesian GW,..and your choices/decisions would be reflected in the Awakening Expansion.

Well they are not being reflected..they are being tossed in the dust bin. 

All  it would take is for a short conversation denoting something about the former GW that sacrificed their life to save Ferelden.   A short conversation..that gives that info to the new Orlesian GW.

And that would fill the gap/hole they have created by announcing that some folks can play their dead warden if they want to.

Otherwise...the results we are left with right now are not good enough.

Anyways still waiting on clarification...hope we hear something eventually.

Yes I know they are screwing the US ending over, but storywise if you roleplay  your character to be ok with the ritual Morrigan offers that storyline is not affected. The only one affected is US ending. That is what I was saying. We know of the "get out of death free card" but if you immerse yourself and don't use the dramatic irony and play as if your character doesn't know of the US ending screwup, the dark ritual is still the same and may very well be a way out your character would take.

My apologies if you thought I was saying the US ending wasn't destroyed by the apparent choice to omit the option to import choices only.


Also Alandros, you are missing the point.  by saying we want the chocies of our dead warden to carry over we are not saying we want the new orlesian to suddenly be that character. In life if you die yes your story ends, but the larger story continues without you but your actions and choices in life don't magically get erased, they impact future events.

For instance:
Who is ruler, Anora, Alistair, both?
Did you kill or spare Loghain?
Did you wipe out Wynn with the circle tower?
Did you do the stuff to kill Oghren?

References to the storyline  laid out by the US ending is what people are wanting for the orlesian, not for the orlesian to magically be the sacrificed warden. As it stands the orlesian warden gets a generic background to what occured prior to their arrival.

The above examples are decisions made that people were hoping would carry over from the US ending so that the story continues, with the grey warden from orlais replacing the dead warden (not becoming the dead warden) But apparently you get the generic story with alistair as king ogrhen as commander of ferelden, wynn being alive for her cameo and most likely loghain dead.

Also quit using the fact that if you wipe in game it forces you to reload, that is because if you die the its game over Blight doesn't get stopped Ferelden gets destroyed Awakening never happens. If you get the US ending your character died, but Ferelden continued and your choices impacted on how it continued.

edit: nvm to some of it, I didn't read everything before posting and see that you sort of get it.

Modifié par Azure Zero, 17 février 2010 - 06:28 .

[Demx]

flem1 wrote...

Call it the "Useless Sacrifice".  Or "Unacceptable Sacrifice".  Or "Uncanonical Sacrifice".

I like Unattainable Sacrifice.

[RangerSG]

Azure Zero,



Why have your character make a hard choice about whether to make the sacrifice or go through something that would be quite probably morally detestable (infidelity) when in the end, your choice is going to be rendered inconsequential because your sacrifice wasn't a sacrifice?



There's no reason to choose the Ritual, because the teeth have been kicked out of the consequences. You can be the hero, fake a death, and live happily ever after. Oh yay.



Now I don't have a problem with them permitting a hand-waving and letting someone make a metagaming choice to bring back their PC. I *do* have a problem with the game officially not recognizing your sacrificed warden as having laid down their life to stop the Blight in an Orlesian Warden story. Seeing as the original purpose of the Orlesian Warden was to fill the gap of the sacrifice PC, to then rewrite the story so that the sacrifice didn't happen with the "guest Warden" either officially renders the sacrifice a non-existent ending.



That removes the consequences from making the sacrifice, and thus also removes any logical reason to choose the Dark Promise, unless the PC was already romancing Morrigan. Now I get there may be technical reasons why the US import may have been problematic. But IMHO, that could be effectively remedied by having an OOC pre-game conversation with the Orlesian Warden to set the variables from your sacrifice character's choices. (Similar to what "The Sith Lords" did.)

[darrenr22]

Alandros wrote...

darrenr22 wrote...

Alandros wrote...

Nope, no confusion here, I completely understand and have in fact re-stated it (which should be evident).  I think what you don't understand is that in my opinion that creates a bigger hole.  You are that character, if you made the ultimate sacrifice then you died, story over, start a new one if you want to continue on.  To me being able to die and then continue on as a new character with all the choices you made in a previous character would be closer to cheating and a RP hole since it distills your sacrifice down to a minor inconvenience and no consequence to the player.  On the other hand if "somehow you survive" then the death never happened and the plot hole is a minor change to what happened, which removed a consequence to dying since you never did.  

I find that an utterly bizarre opinion.

We are talking about a computer game in which one takes the role of a character on a screen. "You" did not die. If the story continues in an expansion then it is not "story over". That is the nature of fiction, whether one is reading a book or playing a game. I fail to see how the term "cheating" has any relevance whatsoever. And as I have already intimated, it is utterly bizarre to claim that the option under discussion here creates a "bigger" RP hole than one in which the Warden is mysteriously alive with some kind of unfathomable retconning of previous events, as appears to be the plan.

When I said you were confused before I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you merely had not read a clear exposition of what the issue was. I have revised my opinion in the wake of your latest post: it seems that you are aware of the issue but, worse, your entire position, illegitimately confusing story, game and metagame issues, is basically incoherent.

Is it really that bizarre considering the entire game hinges on the surviving PC in which you identify as yourself?  If you die the game doesn't go on as if you can assume another character, right?  What does it do, stop, end, and force you to load a save.  Obviously not quite as bizarre as you might want to imply in an attempt to demean me, but oh well.

Lol, well I'll just leave it at "we'll have to agree to disagree" and I'l not respond to insults with insults *shrug*

Firstly, I should point out that my post contains no insult nor did it demean you. I am sure you are a perfectly splendid person, it is merely that the position you have taken on this issue lacks coherence. I am sorry if you feel you have been "demeaned" but at the same time I see no reason to acquiesce nor to pull punches on the content of the discussion purely in order to spare an interlocutor's feelings. My intention is to argue strongly and rationally and to criticise the argument not the person.

On to the issue: you say the "game doesn't go on as if you assume another character" but this simply demonstrates the confusion you have fallen into. What those on the other side of the debate want is that the fictional world in which they have participated should go on and that the continuity of the story they are participating in as a role-player should go on.

To demonstrate how strange the position you have taken on this issue is, consider a tabletop game such as Dungeons and Dragons: by your argument, should your character die you could no longer participate in the game as simply creating another character and rejoining the persistent world in which you are participating would create a "RP hole", after all, as you say, "you died".

All the people on the other side of the debate are asking for is that they should be able to continue to experience an ongoing and consistent rpg story while playing a new character. Thus far, you have singularly failed to offer any coherent argument as to why they should not be able to do so.

EDIT: a) I note that one or two people have made similar points to my own regarding game/metagame issues and the nature of player vs character in role-playing games. I hope my point above about participating in a persistent world adds some small contribution. I note further that, to his credit, while continuing to defend his position, Alandros has taken on board some of the opposing points made in this debate.

Modifié par darrenr22, 17 février 2010 - 09:57 .

[spottyblanket]

It's going to happen anyway. Best just to wait and see.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

All the previous wardens were ******. The Dragon Age Main Warden character is so badass not even death can stop them.

[darrenr22]

Given the way these issues appear to be being implemented by Bioware (given the information we currently have) I cannot really see myself experiencing much of a desire to play the Orlesian Grey Warden. I think the game experience will lose something if one starts from a "default" world state rather than one which derives from an actual playthrough of the original game.

[Maferath]

I think I'll still play the Orlesian Warden, but only for the mustache.

[Dandellion]

Aquamantor wrote...


"If a player wants to, they can import their "Dead Warden" into Awakening and play as them. For the story it's assumed that they didn't make the ultimate sacrifice, instead somehow survived. A player would start as the same level with the same gear as their "Dead Warden". Essentially, if a player doesn't have a problem hand-waiving the story in this regard - neither do we.:"

Yes, the single biggest BS in this whole Awakening endeavor, and the "fruit" of the acquisition by EA. The new policy seems to be to milk every brand into oblivion with least effort and highest frequency possible. This is what we get.

But you know what? If Bioware tells me to handwaive part of a story, I may as well handwaive the complete experience myself and save myself some 30 bucks. I'm sure I'll get a better experience that way.

[Azure Zero]

RangerSG wrote...

Azure Zero,

Why have your character make a hard choice about whether to make the sacrifice or go through something that would be quite probably morally detestable (infidelity) when in the end, your choice is going to be rendered inconsequential because your sacrifice wasn't a sacrifice?

There's no reason to choose the Ritual, because the teeth have been kicked out of the consequences. You can be the hero, fake a death, and live happily ever after. Oh yay.

Now I don't have a problem with them permitting a hand-waving and letting someone make a metagaming choice to bring back their PC. I *do* have a problem with the game officially not recognizing your sacrificed warden as having laid down their life to stop the Blight in an Orlesian Warden story. Seeing as the original purpose of the Orlesian Warden was to fill the gap of the sacrifice PC, to then rewrite the story so that the sacrifice didn't happen with the "guest Warden" either officially renders the sacrifice a non-existent ending.

That removes the consequences from making the sacrifice, and thus also removes any logical reason to choose the Dark Promise, unless the PC was already romancing Morrigan. Now I get there may be technical reasons why the US import may have been problematic. But IMHO, that could be effectively remedied by having an OOC pre-game conversation with the Orlesian Warden to set the variables from your sacrifice character's choices. (Similar to what "The Sith Lords" did.)

reply to bolded section:
Gonna try to be as clear as a I can. for the whole sake of roleplay, the US ending not being used, does not affect the dark ritual ending. If you use the outside knowledge that you will magically survive somehow, then you are no longer roleplaying.

reply to italics section:
I have been agreeing with this opinion since since my very first post in the thread.

I just  don't agree from roleplay perspective that it affects dark ritual ending unless you choose to break immersion and use outside knowledge that your warden will magically survive the US ending. You can still roleplay a character  that would for whatever reason agree to dark ritual as if you did not know about the  hand waiving bs pulled for the US ending.

Modifié par Azure Zero, 17 février 2010 - 12:35 .

[Feraele]

RurouniSaiya-jin wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So a simple bg info from NPCs that knew your dead PC wouldn't make sense, but a revived warden does?

Anyways, I might have used the wrong word. They aren't "wrong". But their decision is bizarre and I see no plausible justification for it. If it was time they are lacking, then they shouldn't have released the expansion only 5 months after the original was released.   

Well, that's the thing, if you decide to import your US Warden, you give Bioware the green light to rewrite that part of the story for the purpose of Awakening so that you never died to begin with. The exact specifics of how you escape getting killed remain to be seen, who knows, it could be a brand new ending on its own or they might not even tell you how you survived, that's how little the fact that you did the US or the Dark Ritual could matter from Awakening's perspective. One way or another, continuity will be preserved from a story perspective.

On the other hand, NPCs giving bg info on your dead PC could be problematic story wise depending on how Bioware does the story.  For instance, the only NPCs that could possibly give a detailed history of your character would have to been among your party. This is a problem since most of those people won't be in Awakening. Sure, there are other NPCs that could give a "Snapshot" of your character's history like their time spent in Orzammar or Redcliffe but there's the possibility that a lot of these people decided to stay where they were in Origins and you don't run into them in your adventures in Awakening. There's also the issue of how your Warden would come up in conversation. Other than Oghren, cameos from NPCs in Awakening could be very "just passing through" affairs. They could come to deal with a crisis of their own or possibly brief/inform you of something and then leave as soon as they're done their task, leaving no time for casual talk about your Warden to come up. So it all really depends on the story and how it plays out.

Well I guess that would be where Ohgren comes in...he was there wasn't he..at least in my US play through he was.   Although I left him helping defend at the City gates.   Still he would be able to relate some short form...of information to the New Orlesian GW.

Ohgren will be playing a major role (from what I understand in this upcoming expansion) therefore he would be the perfect one to give a short chatter about it.   Just enough to cover the plot hole.

It also makes me think that...IF the Dark Ritual is already considered to be canon...it might behoove Bioware to make it more obvious, because the other storylines will also go the way of the dodo too..won't they?

[Feraele]

I would still like to see how they explain away the end cut-scene with Alistair or whomever standing over your bier ..and his speech about Weishaupt, and the statue at the new Warden keep in Amaranthine.



Plot hole..plot hole..plot hole!

[Nuclear]

Even the best games have plot holes, some accidental, some just to screw up our minds.