1118 réponses à ce sujet

[Feraele]

Alexor Destroyer of Worlds wrote...

I don't care much. The only people who lose in this are the ones stupid enough to kill their character.

No offense meant.

Then it shouldn't be written as an ending then..it shouldn't exist at all.   It shouldn't be part of the story line that it is a Grey Warden's duty to attempt to kill the Archdemon, as a Grey Warden is the only one that can make sure the soul of the Archdemon is destroyed.

Am I right?

[wowpwnslol]

Feraele wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

Stop whining. Bioware cannot make a game with 1000 options for every player. Maybe they don't recognize the ending where you threw away your character like a tool as canon? That's within their right if they want to develop Awakening story that involved Morrigan's involvement to keep your character alive.This place is getting worse than WoW forums. Every second topic is QQ about DLC items and others are just plain nerd raging. How about suggestions that will fix many of DA's flawed combat and balanced mechanics?

I think perhaps you need to look up the definition of "whining'.....really.. a dictionary is your friend.   Reading comprehension is also your friend.

And I think you need to remove the huge pole that's firmly lodged up your ass. But hey, not all wishes come true. RP nerds make me laugh.

[Lord_Darkmoon]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Stop whining. Bioware cannot make a game with 1000 options for every player. Maybe they don't recognize the ending where you threw away your character like a tool as canon? That's within their right if they want to develop Awakening story that involved Morrigan's involvement to keep your character alive.This place is getting worse than WoW forums. Every second topic is QQ about DLC items and others are just plain nerd raging. How about suggestions that will fix many of DA's flawed combat and balanced mechanics?

Then they shouldn't have given us more than one ending.
It would have been better if they did not give the option of importing decisions into Awakening at all. But importing just the decisions of some endings rather than all is a slap in the face of all thise who made the ultimate sacrifice. This ending is worthless, pointless, they shouldn't have included it if they dont't want to pursue it further.

And even if they want to create one canon ending, then they should just come out and say it!

And saving Ferelden from the Archdemon is throwing away a character like a tool? You don't seem to be immersed in the story.

[Vicious]

Bioware needs to stick to linear plots they can build off of. The US ending is utterly pointless; It's like if Shepard dies at the end of ME2. It's just 'there' but it's obviously not the way events are supposed to go.

[wowpwnslol]

Vicious wrote...

Bioware needs to stick to linear plots they can build off of. The US ending is utterly pointless; It's like if Shepard dies at the end of ME2. It's just 'there' but it's obviously not the way events are supposed to go.

This man gets it. It's completely retarded to regard the Ultimate Sacrifice as one of the canon ending. Bioware just won't support it after all the effort they put into Morrigan ending.

Modifié par wowpwnslol, 19 février 2010 - 01:44 .

[Feraele]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Feraele wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

Stop whining. Bioware cannot make a game with 1000 options for every player. Maybe they don't recognize the ending where you threw away your character like a tool as canon? That's within their right if they want to develop Awakening story that involved Morrigan's involvement to keep your character alive.This place is getting worse than WoW forums. Every second topic is QQ about DLC items and others are just plain nerd raging. How about suggestions that will fix many of DA's flawed combat and balanced mechanics?

I think perhaps you need to look up the definition of "whining'.....really.. a dictionary is your friend.   Reading comprehension is also your friend.

And I think you need to remove the huge pole that's firmly lodged up your ass. But hey, not all wishes come true. RP nerds make me laugh.

Well i guess you're just in this thread to disrupt and derail....and I really don't care what your opinion is in regards to rp nerds.

Maybe you need to return to where you belong...there's no rp there that I know of.    Referencing your name btw.

[Lord_Darkmoon]

Vicious wrote...

Bioware needs to stick to linear plots they can build off of. The US ending is utterly pointless; It's like if Shepard dies at the end of ME2. It's just 'there' but it's obviously not the way events are supposed to go.

Actually I think it is not pointless. I think it was the most fitting end to the story.
And the Grey Warden is not Shepard. Even if you compare the grey warden to Shepard, you would ahve to compare them at the end of Mass Effect 3. Then the story of Shepard is done. I wouldn't care if Shepard dies in Mass Effect 3 and another hero steps up in the sequel.

I would have loved to continue to play with a new character in the world my dead warden shaped. Like one hero giving is life to save the world in a story and another one steps up to take his place.

And like I said, if the ending is just there for fun, why is Bioware not telling us so and telling us what the canon ending is?

[Feraele]

Lord_Darkmoon wrote...

Vicious wrote...

Bioware needs to stick to linear plots they can build off of. The US ending is utterly pointless; It's like if Shepard dies at the end of ME2. It's just 'there' but it's obviously not the way events are supposed to go.

Actually I think it is not pointless. I think it was the most fitting end to the story.
And the Grey Warden is not Shepard. Even if you compare the grey warden to Shepard, you would ahve to compare them at the end of Mass Effect 3. Then the story of Shepard is done. I wouldn't care if Shepard dies in Mass Effect 3 and another hero steps up in the sequel.

I would have loved to continue to play with a new character in the world my dead warden shaped. Like one hero giving is life to save the world in a story and another one steps up to take his place.

And like I said, if the ending is just there for fun, why is Bioware not telling us so and telling us what the canon ending is?

I can agree with this aspect too.  Although in my discussions on this thread..I am not even expecting the Ultimate Sacrifice to be "canon".    Just a small indication ..that a grey warden did their duty and destroyed the soul of the current Archdemon.    No importing of "world state"...even.

[wowpwnslol]

Feraele wrote...


Well i guess you're just in this thread to disrupt and derail....and I really don't care what your opinion is in regards to rp nerds.

Maybe you need to return to where you belong...there's no rp there that I know of.    Referencing your name btw.

Can't be bothered arguing with emo nerds. Welcome to ignore.

[Feraele]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Feraele wrote...


Well i guess you're just in this thread to disrupt and derail....and I really don't care what your opinion is in regards to rp nerds.

Maybe you need to return to where you belong...there's no rp there that I know of.    Referencing your name btw.

Can't be bothered arguing with emo nerds. Welcome to ignore.

Fine by me..now can we get back to discussing the topic instead of your dislike for rp nerds? ^^    Although it mystifies me why you would play an RPG ---- Role Playing Game...in the first place if you find roleplay so distasteful.....curiouser and curiouser.

[Shirle Illios]

I'm glad for wowpwnslol's posts, because he helps bring attention to this issue by continuously bumping up the thread.

Considering that I play BioWare's games for their stories (and care little to nothing for combat imbalances or whatever) I find that BioWare breaking their stories as they are here is probably the most grievous offense that they could commit with their games. It, in fact, utterly baffles me that not only are they doing so, but are acting as if it's the most normal thing in the world.

Vicious wrote...

Bioware needs to stick to linear plots they can build off of.

I agree. More and more it seems as if BioWare simply can't handle stories with multiple, divergent, choices.

Vicious wrote...

It's like if Shepard dies at the end of ME2. It's just 'there' but it's obviously not the way events are supposed to go.

This I disagree with. It's different from ME2 because of several factors.

First of all, ME2 is the story of Shepard and you can't continue that story if the main character is dead (though that makes ME2's beginning particularly laughable). Dragon Age, however, isn't the story of "The Warden", but is the story of the world (as evident, for one, by Awakening giving you the option to play a completely different character).

Secondly, in ME2 dying at the end is the result of the player doing pretty much everything wrong. It's not a conscious decision to sacrifice yourself to defeat the enemy like it is in Dragon Age: Origins, it's just that everything goes so badly that Shepard doesn't manage to survive (which he clearly tries to if you've seen that ending).

So I can understand them not continuing after Mass Effect 2, but I do feel it's a big slap in the face for those who chose the Ultimate Sacrifice in Dragon Age: Origins (for one, because I feel that it makes the strongest, most powerful story) by invalidating that ending in Awakening as if it never existed.

Fernando Melo wrote...

Can you import the world 'state', but start new in Awakening as the Orlesian Cmdr?  No.  The world 'state' only exists and lives on as part of your character's choices - most of the reactivity to events and choices in Origins would simply not make sense if it wasn't 'you' that did it.

I hadn't seen that before, but it makes no sense. I mean that I get that they don't have that reactivity, but we're saying that it should have. It has that reactivity to all the other endings after all; is it really so hard to include a check to see whether you're playing from a Ultimate Sacrifice ending (and thus are playing another character) or not?

Deeply, deeply disappointed in BioWare. Next time; don't include choices if you can't carry through the consequences.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Sabriana]

None of my PCs died, although one came close. However, I do understand that people who played through the game and did the sacrifice are unhappy. It's as valid an ending as any other, and it's a heart-wrenching one. It shouldn't just be shrugged off, and the PCs sacrifice should be at least mentioned to the Orlesian Warden.

I say that because people keep harping on how the "Morrigan ending" is the ultimate ending. If it is, I'll be upset. In none of my play-throughs, did she get to do the ritual. If she suddenly shows up with god-baby, it'll nullify all my plays.

What I'd like to see is all these people's reactions should it come about that Morrigan's shenanigans are brushed under the carpet as 'never happened, sorry folks'. Especially people who deem it appropriate to berate those who did the sacrifice with their PC.

[bluewolv1970]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Feraele wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

Stop whining. Bioware cannot make a game with 1000 options for every player. Maybe they don't recognize the ending where you threw away your character like a tool as canon? That's within their right if they want to develop Awakening story that involved Morrigan's involvement to keep your character alive.This place is getting worse than WoW forums. Every second topic is QQ about DLC items and others are just plain nerd raging. How about suggestions that will fix many of DA's flawed combat and balanced mechanics?

I think perhaps you need to look up the definition of "whining'.....really.. a dictionary is your friend.   Reading comprehension is also your friend.

And I think you need to remove the huge pole that's firmly lodged up your ass. But hey, not all wishes come true. RP nerds make me laugh.

said the person who i sfamialir with wow forums and uses phrase combat and balanced mechanics

[Proposition_Joe]

wow? isnt that just for kidz? what are they doing here? isnt it an agecheck for this forum?

[Rylor Tormtor]

Shirle Illios wrote...

I'm glad for wowpwnslol's posts, because he helps bring attention to this issue by continuously bumping up the thread.

Considering that I play BioWare's games for their stories (and care little to nothing for combat imbalances or whatever) I find that BioWare breaking their stories as they are here is probably the most grievous offense that they could commit with their games. It, in fact, utterly baffles me that not only are they doing so, but are acting as if it's the most normal thing in the world.

Vicious wrote...

Bioware needs to stick to linear plots they can build off of.

I agree. More and more it seems as if BioWare simply can't handle stories with multiple, divergent, choices.

Vicious wrote...

It's like if Shepard dies at the end of ME2. It's just 'there' but it's obviously not the way events are supposed to go.

This I disagree with. It's different from ME2 because of several factors.

First of all, ME2 is the story of Shepard and you can't continue that story if the main character is dead (though that makes ME2's beginning particularly laughable). Dragon Age, however, isn't the story of "The Warden", but is the story of the world (as evident, for one, by Awakening giving you the option to play a completely different character).

Secondly, in ME2 dying at the end is the result of the player doing pretty much everything wrong. It's not a conscious decision to sacrifice yourself to defeat the enemy like it is in Dragon Age: Origins, it's just that everything goes so badly that Shepard doesn't manage to survive (which he clearly tries to if you've seen that ending).

So I can understand them not continuing after Mass Effect 2, but I do feel it's a big slap in the face for those who chose the Ultimate Sacrifice in Dragon Age: Origins (for one, because I feel that it makes the strongest, most powerful story) by invalidating that ending in Awakening as if it never existed.

Fernando Melo wrote...

Can you import the world 'state', but start new in Awakening as the Orlesian Cmdr?  No.  The world 'state' only exists and lives on as part of your character's choices - most of the reactivity to events and choices in Origins would simply not make sense if it wasn't 'you' that did it.

I hadn't seen that before, but it makes no sense. I mean that I get that they don't have that reactivity, but we're saying that it should have. It has that reactivity to all the other endings after all; is it really so hard to include a check to see whether you're playing from a Ultimate Sacrifice ending (and thus are playing another character) or not?

Deeply, deeply disappointed in BioWare. Next time; don't include choices if you can't carry through the consequences.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

Apologies for dumping long posts, but it is nice to see Shirle articulate the matter so well.

[Reaverwind]

Shirle Illios wrote...

I'm glad for wowpwnslol's posts, because he helps bring attention to this issue by continuously bumping up the thread.

Considering that I play BioWare's games for their stories (and care little to nothing for combat imbalances or whatever) I find that BioWare breaking their stories as they are here is probably the most grievous offense that they could commit with their games. It, in fact, utterly baffles me that not only are they doing so, but are acting as if it's the most normal thing in the world.

Vicious wrote...

Bioware needs to stick to linear plots they can build off of.

I agree. More and more it seems as if BioWare simply can't handle stories with multiple, divergent, choices.

Shir'le

Such irony, since Bioware's emphasis on choices was a major selling point. I also bought the game primarily for the story, since they do spin a good yarn. As for the combat experience, there are other games that completely blow DA out of the water, and I've yet to play a single-player game that can beat the party experience Ive had running a good group in EQ2.

[bluewolv1970]

Feraele wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

Feraele wrote...


Well i guess you're just in this thread to disrupt and derail....and I really don't care what your opinion is in regards to rp nerds.

Maybe you need to return to where you belong...there's no rp there that I know of.    Referencing your name btw.

Can't be bothered arguing with emo nerds. Welcome to ignore.

Fine by me..now can we get back to discussing the topic instead of your dislike for rp nerds? ^^    Although it mystifies me why you would play an RPG ---- Role Playing Game...in the first place if you find roleplay so distasteful.....curiouser and curiouser.

and you know he/she is familiar with the wow forums and uses phrases such as combat blaanced mechanics

[sten_super]

First time poster here. I'm afraid I haven't followed all 26 pages of the argument, but agree with the general sentiment being expressed by many. The end of DA:O presents the player with at least 3 different options (I haven't actually reached the end yet so there may be more!); 1) sacrifice your character, 2) sacrifice Alistair/Loghain, or 3) do the deed with Morrigan and everyone lives.



It appears that they are going to completely remove 1) from Awakening. It is unclear at this moment whether they are also going to remove 2), but seems likely given that Alistair appears in the trailer. Why bother to present the player with these options if added content (and it has to be remembered that this is added content that requires ownership of the original game: it would in my opinion be much more acceptable to create a canon ending for a new game) is then going to completely ignore at least one of the possible endings?

[Feraele]

sten_super wrote...

First time poster here. I'm afraid I haven't followed all 26 pages of the argument, but agree with the general sentiment being expressed by many. The end of DA:O presents the player with at least 3 different options (I haven't actually reached the end yet so there may be more!); 1) sacrifice your character, 2) sacrifice Alistair/Loghain, or 3) do the deed with Morrigan and everyone lives.

It appears that they are going to completely remove 1) from Awakening. It is unclear at this moment whether they are also going to remove 2), but seems likely given that Alistair appears in the trailer. Why bother to present the player with these options if added content (and it has to be remembered that this is added content that requires ownership of the original game: it would in my opinion be much more acceptable to create a canon ending for a new game) is then going to completely ignore at least one of the possible endings?

If so perhaps they are getting ready to announce "what is canon".  

That would save some folks going through 80 hours or so  with an ending that will count for nothing and be ignored.

[tomas819]

Feraele wrote...

Alexor Destroyer of Worlds wrote...

I don't care much. The only people who lose in this are the ones stupid enough to kill their character.

No offense meant.

Then it shouldn't be written as an ending then..it shouldn't exist at all.   It shouldn't be part of the story line that it is a Grey Warden's duty to attempt to kill the Archdemon, as a Grey Warden is the only one that can make sure the soul of the Archdemon is destroyed.

Am I right?

Yes, indeed. You are absolutely right. Of all the endings available, I found that, if you are playing a "noble hero-type" character, the US was the ONLY way to go. All of the other options involved either doing something (in my view) reprehensible to save one's own skin or having someone else step up to the plate because the PC is too much of a spineless, cowardly weasel to do the right thing. (An option even I took on one of my characters just to see how it played out.)

So, yes, of course, I chose the US on my favorite character. And, of course, I expected to have to play the Orlesian on that character, but I at least expected some acknowledgement of what the prior (and now deceased) character had, well, sacrificed.

If this is how Awakenings handles the US ending, it's kind of a slap in the face, I have to say.

Modifié par tomas819, 19 février 2010 - 05:00 .

[Jagrevi]

My only concern is this.

If I went with the US ending, is there any way to continue that doesn't CONTRADICT how I played?

1) If I can play as the character who sacrificed themselves, AND AN ACTUAL DECENT STORY EXCUSE IS GIVEN, then that will work. Rather lame, but that will work.

2) If I play through as an Orlesian Warden and the variable elements from DA:O ARE NEVER MENTIONED, then that will work. Rather lame, but that will work.

3) If I play through as an Orlesian Warden and it asks me some questions to allow me, as the player, to clarify some past history, then that will work.

4) HOWEVER if I play as an Orlesian Warden, and a DEAD character comes up to me and says hello, honestly, I will have lost all interest in this game. In the same way I would have lost all interest in Return of the Jedi, if, at the end, Jabba the Hutt comes in to save Luke from Darth Vader, and they all live happily ever after on Alderaan.

With the horrible amount and quality of communication we've had on this subject, it at least sounds distrubingly like #4.

Modifié par Jagrevi, 19 février 2010 - 05:20 .

[grieferbastard]

This isn't rocket science.

You must have canon to continue to produce games. To say that every single possible outcome will be fully mapped out and accounted for in every single DLC, expansion and future game is just rediculous. Much as with kotor there's a canonical storyline but you are allowed to create your own non-canonical story, which is awesome.

To attempt to validate all possible endings through all expansions and future games is just not realistic. So in Dragon Age 3 on its second expansion pack you'd have all the variables from DA (harrowmont/Bahlen,Warewolves/elves, US/Alistair/Loghain/Morrigan, etc) times the possible endings for Awakenings, then multiply that by the ending possibilities whatever the next expansion is, then THAT times DA2s endings....

See where this is going? This gives you 2 options. #1 - create a set canonical storyline and each new Dragon Age game will have to pick up from that. This is the 'old system' that's existed prior to now. #2 A canonical theme so that characters following a similiar concept (like, say, not being dead) can carry the reccord of what they've done forward.

Yet regardless of what you do there's got to be a point where obligate complexity makes supporting a set of options requires more work to support than there's going to be payoff in entertainment.

Yes, it would be awesome to have a 100% persistent world that carries every single decision, from sacrificing yourself for the greater good to kissing a particular barmaid carry forward game after game. Reality though is that even just having voice acting for all the Wardens lines is a big enough financial burden, not to mention occupy too much space, for it to be viable.

When you kill your character you stop their story right there. That doesn't invalidate anything. All it does is draw the line for where that particular story stops.

[Sabriana]

She dies, but her choices do not die automatically with her. It doesn't stop there. Just because the GW is no more doesn't undo her choices during the Origins.

[Nial Black-Knee]

LOL....I don't understand why people don't understand why real RPG gamers are upset about this huge plot hole. Bioware has said over and over. YOUR decisions have meaning, and will impact your story throughout the story. Well the US is one of if not the biggest decision you can make in the game. And with one stroke of the developers pen it becomes meaningless. So, I have to ask. What other so called important choices will become meanigless in the future?

[bzombo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

How utterly stupid.

I recall during the development when one of the writers said they wanted a setting where death had meaning. So much for that. Apparently ‘ultimate sacrifice’ is more like ‘temporary inconvenience.’

Honestly, I’d have thought that ME 2 showed how little BioWare cares about choices and consequences, but this is a new low.

Fernando Melo wrote...

Can you import the world 'state', but start new in Awakening as the Orlesian Cmdr?  No.  The world 'state' only exists and lives on as part of your character's choices - most of the reactivity to events and choices in Origins would simply not make sense if it wasn't 'you' that did it.

Okay, so imagine a player puts Anora on the throne, kills Loghain, and then perform the Ultimate Sacrifice. The ideal situation would be for Awakening to acknowledge what their Warden did, but for the Warden to still be dead.

As is, this cannot be the case. If I import the Ultimate Sacrifice, I play as my dead character. If I don't import the Ultimate Sacrifice, Awakening doesn't acknowledge what my character did. It reverts to whatever 'default' the developers have created. Maybe the Dark Ritual was performed, maybe Alistair is king, maybe the Circle is Annuled when I saved it.

i don't see why so many are upset. it allows you the choice to break the story if you are married to using your character. you can just as easily start with a new character. if you don't like it, just create a new one. importing a dead character and staying dead would make little sense since the warden from orlais could care less since he was not involved.