84 réponses à ce sujet

[Spuro]

So after reading The Stolen Throne book by David Gaider, it has further confirmed my belief that Loghain is a complete **** and would have looked forward to putting his head on a pike and displayed outside the Royal Palace if I could.  

The fact that he betrayed King Cailan and left him to the Darkspawn was bad enough, as not that not only effectively wiped out the (known) Theiran bloodline, but it is ensured that the Darkspawn would eventually run rampart in Ferelden and decimate the countryside.

But furthermore from reading The Stolen Throne, he basically allowed the killing of his supposed best friend Maric's son.  Although Loghain had saved Maric's life countless times and was invaluable in driving the Orlesians from Ferelden, Maric also trusted Loghain with everything he had and gave Loghain the privileged life that he enjoyed after the war.  Cailan was also the only son of Queen Rowan, the woman that Loghain supposedly cared for and loved.  No matter how incompetent Cailan seemed at the time, I still believe it was an extremely selfish and short-sighted decision that Loghain has made.

So yeah, Loghain's actions at Ostagar not only doomed Ferelden to a fate that was possibly worse than Cailan himself could ever have done, but he also betrayed the friendship of Maric and the love of Rowan that he has shared with by killing their only son.   Two people that was perhaps his only two true friends in his entire life.  I'm more particularly annoyed at this because I thought Rowan was a great character and she (and her son) deserved better.

Anyways, enough of my rant.  What do others who have read the book think?

Modifié par Spuro, 14 février 2010 - 12:10 .

[CalJones]

There's a whole thread on this with posts from David Gaider here: http://social.biowar.../index/583297/1



All the Loghain pros and cons you can imagine.



If you read what DG says, Loghain didn't plan to betray Cailan - in fact he was very clear about telling him not to go in on the front line with the Wardens. Cailan, being a glory hunting fool, ignored Loghain. His death was his own fault.



As for the retreat, we know for a fact the beacon wasn't lit on time and the valley was flooded by darkspawn at that point. Whether Loghain's actions in this instance were evil or sensible is really down to your own interpretation, but DG states that he didn't set out to kill off Cailan - it just ended up that way.



There's no doubt Loghain made some dick moves, but his paranoia about the Orlesians wasn't entirely baseless if you've explored RtO. It just happens that the darkspawn threat is far greater and he lets his hatred of the Orlesians blind him to that.



So, are you justified in executing him? I have done so once, in my first runthrough, and it made me feel *horrible*. I've taken some darker options in other runthroughs (killing the Dalish, sacrificing Connor's mother, siding with Branka) and nothing really affected me in the same way.



Why? Well, never mind that the cutscene is utterly brutal. The fact is, the man is a war hero - a hero of the common folk of Fereldan and pretty much the only reason the people of Fereldan aren't speaking Orlesian or having their womenfolk raped by chevaliers on a regular basis. He's a fallen hero rather than a villain - letting him die without hope of redemption would be a terrible thing, in my mind (and I would have though, bad for national morale). I let him live for the same reason that I let Sten, a self- confessed murderer, out of the cage in Lothering. For the same reason I'll allow an amoral assassin to join my group rather than slaughter him while he's defenceless. For the same reason I let Jowan out of his cell so he can help fix the mess he made.



My opinions are my own, of course, but the choice is pretty straightforward for me.

[Addai]

It's more inexplicable to me that he betrayed *Rowan's* son. Wrap your head around that for a minute.

[Sandtigress]

Again though, I don't think Loghain went in to Ostagar planning to retreat. He felt backed into that position by Cailan's actions. Probably the only person who could have convinced Cailan to remain in a safe place was Duncan, and giving Cailan's hero worship of the Grey Wardens, even Duncan probably couldn't/didn't have any success at that.

I think what puts me off about Loghain and Anora is that they see Ferelden as this amorphic "thing" that needs protecting, whereas Alistair and my Wardens tend to see Ferelden as the people, as well as a country as a whole. With that mindset, Loghain had to choose between the King and the country, and picked the country, as he always would. Better that Ferelden as an ideal stood intact, especially free from Orlesian influence, than one man, or many men, survive.

I rather suspect that it was a hard choice for him to sacrifice Maric and Rowan's son. But Loghain was never the type to question an action - he did what was necessary and never looked back. It was both his strength and his greatest flaw, I think. It made him a great general and adviser for the king, but also made him something of a jerk, and eventually a traitor.  He is a traitor though only in that he betrayed his king, in service to his country.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 14 février 2010 - 05:14 .

[Synobal]

Ya Loghain is a dick so much so I couldn't even read Stolen throne. I kept wanting to throw up my hands and scream "Just kill him already, he's a traitor is so damn obvious he's only out for himself."

[Persephone]

*Headdesk*

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Persephone wrote...

*Headdesk*

***Hands Persephone a Loghain plushie to cushion her forehead***

There, there. Just remind yourself: it's just bad flashbacks, that's all.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

It's more inexplicable to me that he betrayed *Rowan's* son. Wrap your head around that for a minute.

It took him a long time to do it, that should tell you the extremes it took to get him to be able to do it.

A pure pragmatist would have had Cailan whacked the moment he even brought up the idea of Orlesian troops in Ferelden. Loghain did not do this, even though it was clear Cailan was a fool. it was most likely that it was the fact that Cailan was Rowan and Maric's son is what kept him alive as long as he did.

Given that it was a last minute descision, Loghain's perception that everything was lost and that there was some plot afoot is probably what did it. maric did say "No one man before the nation".

[WhiteKnyght]

Loghain had that planned all along. Ostagar itself was all just an elaborate murder plot.

1. Loghain poisoned Arl Eamon and his sycophant Rendon Howe killed Teryn Cousland before Ostagar. These two men were the most influental Theirin loyalists. If they were there post Ostagar Loghain's head would have been on a pike.

2. Loghain was Cailan's tactician. Any strategic manuver was made by him. Cailan was still very much alive when the signal fire was lit and if Loghain had any confidence in his own strategy or any loyalty to Cailan he wouldn't have run or at least would have made sure to get Cailan out alive.

3. If Loghain honestly retreated because he thought he could do nothing he wouldn't have needed to lie and blame the Grey Wardens for tricking the king into a strategy that he formulated.

4. If he truly struggled with the decision he wouldn't have been making ill of Cailan while his dead body was nailed up in front of him. he would have shown some grief or sympathy. Instead he called him a fool, a cheating bastard, and said he regretted nothing.


And from whats been said and implied in the past, Loghain had plenty of motive to murder Cailan.

1. Loghain lost the woman he loved to his best friend. Cailan would be like a living monument to his loss

2. Cailan had apparently wanted to gain the aid of the Orlesians since before Ostagar(Anora knew about it and she wasn't there) and he is too full of himself to ask the help of his former enemies.

3. Loghain may or may not have gotten wind of Cailan's plan to divorce Anora and marry Empress Celene. If he did thats enough motive right there. Most fathers hate the men their daughters marry and would love to see them pay for hurting them, and marrying the Queen of the nation he hates adds insult to injury. And in Loghain's eyes that would mean all the work "he" did driving the Orlesians would be undone.

Loghain had all the motive and all his actions point to it.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 14 mars 2011 - 06:18 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yet Gaider has already stated that Loghain was not plotting to kill or abandon Cailan, and only made that descision at the last Minute. He had actually planned on Cailan being alive after Ostagar, since he planned to confront him and force him to back down on the Orlesian issue. He poisoned Eamon not to kill him, but to incapacitate him and make it look like a brief illness, so that Eamon would not be there to interfere. So he was not intending to murder Eamon, just remove him from the picture temporarily.

Loghain also had nothing to do with Howe killing the Couslands, Gaider also already stated this. Though Loghain was allied with Howe before Ostagar, Howe had not informed him of his plan to eliminate them. Loghain had told Howe he wanted the Cousland's delayed from marching on to Ostagar, to weaken Cailan's support. He did not know that Howe planned to exterminate them, and by the time he found out, it was really to late to do anything.

As far as Loghain being bitter about Cailan because of Rowan, I don't even think it was an issue. Rowan did not go off and marry some man he despised or didn't know, she married Loghain's best friend, and he was the one who was insistant that she did so. Both of Cailan's parents were very close friends, and it was more likely his love of Cailan's parents that actually kept him from assassinating Cailan, even though it was probably the most sensible thing to do. He had too many sentimental reasons that kept him from seeing that Cailan was utterly a lost cause.

[WhiteKnyght]

All the pieces fit too well together. Easy to believe it was a conspiracy.

And If this wasn't some big conspiracy, why blame the wardens and outlaw them? That little choice nearly ensured Ferelden's destruction.

Why be so sure that The Warden was a puppet of Orlais when all origins are native Fereldans and they support Maric's second son for King? The Grey come from all nations and preserve their neutrality and they make that perfectly clear.

And why of all things, would he insist that the woman he was in love with marry his best friend? Should call him Cyranno Mac ******

If Loghain wasn't conspiring anything then it just makes him look like an idiot.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 14 mars 2011 - 10:08 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

If you've read the books, you would know exactly why Loghain gave up Rowan to Maric. You would also understand why Loghain is suspicous of the grey Wardens and their links to orlais, they almost succeeded in a plot to remove Maric once. It would have failed had Loghain not shown up to bail Maric out, once again.

Nor I don't see where you would get that all origins are native Fereldens loyal to Cailan. About the only origin who could reasonably make that claim is the Human Noble, dwarves are not fereldens, have their own soverign kingdom, and have no reason to feel strongly about Cailan or Maric. dalish elves are outsiders who do not consider themselves Ferelden citizens, or beholden to the King. City elves are an oppressed minority that might or might not feel patriotism. And the mages are outsiders with little connection to Ferelden. Thus, there is no reason for them, other than the human noble, to feel anything for Cailan or ferelden.

And even though the wardens are supposed to be neutral, they often aren't. There are numerous incidents and cases where they do get involved in politics and even rebellions to overthrow a monarch. So yeah, Loggy has pretty good reasons to be suspicous of them.

Loghain was conspiring to force a post Ostagar confrontation with Cailan regarding his over friendlieness and trusting attitude toward the Orlesians, as well as his plans to divorce Anora. Loghain did not expect originally for Ostagar to fail. neither he, nor Cailan, believed it to be a real Blight, and he believed that it was probably just a large darkspawn raid. No one was expecting the horde at ostagar and the sheer numbers of the enemy. Loghain's descision to desert was a last minute, plan B.

As far as post Ostagar, then yeah, Loghain made some epic blunders. He was a general trying to play at politics, and failed msierably. So yes, you could say he was an idiot, he made alot of idiot choices. But his motives for doing what he did had very good, sound basis in reality, his execution and priorities were epic fail.

And like everyone else, he did not know why Wardens were needed to fight darkspawn and end Blights. The taint is supposed to be a secret, but even more so, the reason a Warden must be the one to kill an archdemon was also kept highly secret. No one knew.

[WhiteKnyght]

1. The Warden has been openly called a foreigner despite which origin you choose. Nevertheless, The Human Noble, Circle Mage, and City Elf are all Fereldan citizens. And technically the Dalish and Dwarves are born on/in Fereldan land which makes them legal citizens too.

2. I haven't read the books. But I see no logical reason for a man to pressure the woman he loves who also loves him to marry someone she doesn't love. If he and Rowan loved each other they should have been together. Maric didn't even think enough of Rowan to be faithful to her.

3. If Loghain had as much respect and love for Maric and Rowan and loyalty to his nation as he claimed, he'd have fought to his last breath to save Cailan's life, and if he couldn't, he wouldn't actively work against Maric's other son who has just as much of a right to the crown and is actually more mature than Cailan.

4. Even if the wardens never told the specifics, the fact that every single Blight in the past was ended by the wardens is enough to support their claim that they are the only ones who can do it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

You haven't read the books, that explains much. Be ready for spoilers.

1. Dwarven Wardens are not born on Ferelden soil or in it. They are born in Orzammar, which is a completely soverign nation that is not under the jurisdiction or authority of any surface nation. They are foreigners in Ferelden, they are not Fereldens. Just because the opening to Orzammar opens onto Ferelden territory does not make it part of Ferelden, or it's citizens under ferelden law. You might be confusing surface dwarves who were born on the surface, or migrated there. They themselves can be considered Ferelden citizens. But the Dwarf noble or dwarf casteless? No, they were born as citizens of orzammar, under the authority of it's king. And when they get exiled, it still does not automatically make the Ferelden citizens. They are simply exiled dwarves.

As to the others, Loghain calls them "foreigner" because they have joined an organization with roots and ties to foreign nations, especially Orlais. Thus, Ferelden born or not, they have, in Loghain's eyes, thrown their lot in with a foreign entity, and might as well be considered as such, to Loghain.

2. Big book spoilers: Rowan and Maric had been promised to each other via arranged marriage when they were children. While they had grown up as friends and loved each other as friends/companions, they were not in love romantically. Maric ended up sleeping with and falling in love with an Orlesian elvesn bard/spy who betrayed him and damned near cost him the rebellion. Rowan and Loghain eventually hooked up, because they were actually falling in love. However, Loghain saw that Maric couldn't do it alone: left to his own devices, he would be led by his heart and his dick more than his head, as is the case with what happened with Katriel, the elven bimbo.

What was worse, not only was Maric so stupid that he was bedding the enemy, he was actually considering marrying her and making her queen. Yep, that's right. The leader of the rebellion and the last of the Therin blood line, ferelden's only king and only hope, was going to marry a common Orlesian spy...who was a friggin elf. In a land where elves are considered inferior and untrustworthy. The whole rebellion was based on very fragile alliances with the remaining nobility, had Maric gone and done this, his own people would have murdered or overthrown him.

Needless to say, Loghain saw this, as did Rowan, and realized that, no matter how much he loved Rowan, Ferelden's survival, freedom, and welfare were far more important than his own feelings. It was obvious Maric, left to his own devices, would end up failing epicly. Maric needed Rowan. Ferelden needed Rowan as queen. So Loghain put his own country above his personal desires, and convinced Rowan to return to Maric. Rowan accepted and agreed with Loghain, though it hurt both of them deeply, they knew it was better for the country. And as I stated, Rowan and Maric were already very close and loved each other, just not in the deep romantic way, at that point.

And maric did love Rowan, and knew that he needed her. She was a very strong, intelligent woman who had already sacrificed much to see Ferelden free. When Rowan died later on, Maric was absolutely devestated, to the point where he withdrew and was neglecting his duties as king. This further shows how necessary Rowan was to Maric on many levels, and why Loghain knew, despite his own feelings, that Maric and Ferelden needed her as queen if they were to have any chance of surviving and liberating the country from its Orlesian oppresors. And from all accounts, during the time Rowan was alive, Maric remained faithful.

3. Maric once made Loghain promise that he would never put one man above the welfare of Ferelden. ironically, he said this after Katriel's secret betrayal at the battle of West Hill, where both Loghain and Rowan left their armies to go try and rescue Maric. Maric wanted Loghain to always put Ferelden first, and this included the king. Cailan was in the process of destroying everything his father had worked so hard for. Thus, Cailan was one man that was threatening Ferelden. And per his promise to Maric, Loghain did not allow one man, even the king, to come before the country.

Which Maric would have approved, had he been alive to see what Cailan was doing. Maric ended up killing Katriel, his lover, after he found out about her treachery, and though the decision would haunt maric for years to come, he did not regret doing it.

So in the end, Loghain's whole mess is not about conspiracies to take power for himself and rule as a tyrant. Quite to opposite, because Loghain never has wanted power, and still doesn't. Loghain's retreat from ostagar, plus his declaring himself regent, outlawing the wardens, all had basis in his past experiences, as well as the mistaken belief that no one else could be counted on to do what was needed to save Ferelden. Loghain's folly, was not a lust for power, but a mistaken belief that only he could protect and save the country.

As for the civil war and Bannoron, only some blame can be laid on Loghain's doorstep for not assessing the situation correctly, something that Loghain should have done. Ferelden's nobility are perhaps the greatest threat to the country besides Orlais. The Bannoron are never united on anything, and even during the Orlesian occupation, they happily sold out their country to the orlesians on many occasions. And it was the Bannoron that betrayed and murdered Moire, maric's mother, the rebel queen who started the whole rebellion to free Ferelden in the first place.

The Bannoron don't need a good reason to fight. If you read the codexes, you will find the Banns are always starting wars with each other over the most petty of reasons, including wars started over apple trees, and what one Bann decides to name his dog. Yeah. Dogs and trees. These were the idiots that were rebelling against Loghain, so you can only imagine what idiot reasons they were opposing Loghain for.

This was Loghain's biggest failure. He should have known better. They were unstable and untrustworthy and petty during the rebellion, and had betrayed the country quite a bit. He knew what they were like, yet he was blinded by his own legend, and believed they would rally behind him, like several did in the rebellion, to face the threat together. It was a critical fail on his part.

[WhiteKnyght]

So in other words Loghain sacrificed his own love to back up his prejudices?

1. If an Elf was made queen Maric's queen it could get him a lot of support from her people.

2. What I heard about Maric's bard was that she also really fell in love with him. So its possible she could have been turned to their side.

3. Personally I don't see anything wrong with a royal marrying a commoner or foreigner. Marriage are usually supposed to be about love, not status. Sometimes they are done out of convenience but the former still applies.

4. The fact that Maric killed the girl himself should be proof that he realized his so called folly. If not, Loghain could have knocked some sense into him.

5. The fact that Maric was gonna make an Orlesian his queen makes him sound hypocritical for being mad at Arl Eamon for marrying Isolde.

6. Speaking of that, Eamon married Isolde not long after the war and none of his subjects revolted and murdered him. he was in fact one of the most loved nobles in Ferelden despite that.

7. I actually think it would have been a good idea for Cailan to marry Celine, or even for Alistair to do it if the option was available. If Loghain and Maric cant let of foolish prejudices then they aren't fit to lead anybody. If the royals of Orlais and Ferelden wed the countries would be united. Cailan/Alistair would be King of both lands and they wouldn't be enslaved or mistreated at all. In fact, Ferelden would have gained a lot of power.

8. At the very least Loghain should have had the common sense to realize this. The more Orlesian soldiers there are to fight the darkspawn, the less of his own men he has to sacrifice. And is protecting Ferelden from Orlais so important that he should let the darkspawn destroy it instead?

9. If Loghain didn't want to rule, why make himself Regent? he claims his daughter was already a capable ruler so why not allow her to make the decisions. Anora is a brilliant administrator and knows how to manipulate others.

10. Its like Flemeth said, only fools ignore history. And what history says about the Darkspawn and Blights was very foolish for Loghain to ignore. Every blight in the past brought extensive damage to the entire continent that took decades to recover from. It should have been common sense that the darkspawn were a threat to more than Ferelden and they needed every ally they can get.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 15 mars 2011 - 04:46 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

1. You are kidding, right? Lol, it's clear you don't grasp Ferelden social norms or politics. The support of the elves means squat. They are small in number, extremely poor, and powerless, for starters. Nor are they any sort of united entity that could offer support as a whole. Besides, the rebellion had a number of Ferelden city elves in it's ranks.

And as far as Loghain being prejudiced, don't make me laugh. In the Stolen throne, his strike unit that he trained and commanded was almost made up entirely of elven fighters who had volunteered for the cause.

2. So what if she fell in love with him? Who cares? She was a spy who betrayed him, and not only cost the lives of many of his troops, but almost destroyed the rebellion. Her turning to their side would be of no consequence. And she was a traitor as well. Maric pardoning her, after what she did, would have destroyed his rebellion through loss of support, as he would have been seen as a spineless king.

3. What you think is inconsequential. The nobles and people of Ferelden would strongly object. And violently so. At the end of origins, there was a slide where the city elf was made Bann, but was murdered by their subjects, who refused to live under an elf noble. Still, if an elf like Shianni is made Bann, it still does not end well, with problems and uprisings because of it.

Now, if people get that up in arms over a elven Bann, a small time position of power, (even after an elf saved the country from the Blight), what do you think will be people's reactions to an elven spy, who was a native of the land who had oppressed them for so long, and who also betrayed the rebellion?

4. Of course he realized his folly. Only after Loghain and Rowan provided proof that Katriel was indeed a spy and sabateur.

5. Yes it does. So what? Maric also ended up porking another orlesian elf in the second novel. So yeah, maric can be considered a hypocrite, amongst other things.

6. They didn't need to. Redcliffe is not the throne of Ferelden, thus, who Eamon marries is really more a case of local business. But people were not pleased that he married an Orlesian, and Eamon had to smooth things over and get people to accept it. But again, Redcliffe is only one small part of the country, and a relatively distant one. Isolde was not being made queen.

7. You must be joking. You do realize that Cailan marrying celene pretty much just gives the whole country back to orlais, without the Orlesians having to waste a single soldier invading....

If you think that would be good for Ferelden, or that ferelden would gain from it, you do not understand the politics of the setting or era it emulates. Nor do you understand what kind of person Celene is. Gaider said she was modled after Catharine the Great of Russia.

8. Loghain's priorities were wrong. However, his fears of orlais were well justified. As far as letting them in to fight the Blight, no one except Duncan and the Wardens believed it to be a Blight. Cailan did not believe it was one, either, and neither did Loghain. Thus, if he, and many others in Ferelden, don't think it's a Blight (regardless of whether or not it really is one) then what justification would they have for letting large numbers of enemy forces march into their homeland?

9. Because while he has faith in Anora's ability to rule, he does not believe she will fully commit to what he thinks is necessary. She is more cunning and clever, he's more hamfisted. Again, it is a serious mistake and delusion on his part.

10. Much of the history is legends, often overblown to make them sound more glorious. But again, no one believed it was a Blight until it was too late. The Wardens would only say it was, without giving more solid information as to why (due to Warden secrecy over the Taint). So, it's a bit hard to ignore history when you do not believe it's a real Blight in the first place.

Several times in game, it is hinted that this Blight is unusual. The archdemon remained udnergound alot longer before emerging than past archdemons had, and the invasion horde also surfaced much slower. No one knows why, but it could have something to do with the Architect.

Anyway, in the past, archdemons and their hordes surfaced pretty quikly, and there was no doubt in anyone's mind when the Blight started. Because of the oddness of this Blight, you had half the country skeptical, because no Archdemon had been sighted. It was believed instead, to be an unusually large darkspawn raid. Which do happen, though rarely, between Blights.

[WhiteKnyght]

3. Ferelden is based on England is it not? I don't see people up in arms about Prince William marrying a commoner. In fact its one of the most publicized events right now. Also Anora is a well loved queen and acknowledged as a commoner by the nobility and citizens.

7. Your argument over Empress Celene is that she might have murdered Cailan after she married him? I suppose that would be a problem.

Also after 1200 years of Blights its common knowledge that the darkspawn don't invade the surface in large groups and usually stay underground, hence why so many people believed they were all gone.

And whose to say how long "pretty quickly" is? The other blights lasted for decades so pretty quickly could have meant that it took two, three, or more years before an Archdemon showed itself. The Fifth Blight barely lasted one year.

Also if Loghain wasn't prejudiced against elves, how come he let Caladrius set up his little kidnapping ring in the Alienage and not say some slum where he could get human citizens too? Reason why is because he thought less of them and figured nobody would care.

From what it sounds like, Maric was a two faced, two timing, child abandoning deadbeat, and Loghain is a traitor, a slave trader, a thug, and an utter fool.

Maric should have claimed his son or heaven forbid, kept it in his pants in the first place. Making the "hard choice" so Alistair could have a real childhood really backfired. Eamon threw him out before he was ten just to please the wicked stepmother wannabe he married. Alistair had every right to be angry and bitter. Everybody abandoned him and beat him down emotionally to the point that he had no self esteem to speak of. Then the people who finally did treat him like an actual person were betrayed, slaughtered, and slandered by his father's best friend. And Cailan's at fault too, because he knew Alistair was his brother and made no effort to reach out to him, even at Ostagar when Alistair was practically ten paces away from him. At least he did think enough to make it a point that he wanted Alistair to accompany the Warden to light the signal fire.

Loghain, whatever promises he made(and stupid ones at that), committed high treason by leaving Cailan to die. he was still alive and fighting strong. And if Loghain needed a signal fire to tell him when to attack, how could he know it was too late? If he had deployed his men they might have actually won the battle and Cailan might have lived. And if he truly loved his country he wouldn't be able to sell its citizens like livestock. Not to mention the hypocrisy from how he condemned the Orlesians for enslaving them for nearly a century, and his preaching to the Warden during the landsmeet. The man has something wrong with his mind. And the proof that I'm right is given by Loghain himself. after he's recruited he openly admits that he's done wrong and has a lot to atone for, but still cant breathe a nice word a nice word about Cailan.

[Addai]

Maric was going to recognize Alistair and acknowledge his mistress. She didn't want that because she would have been an apostate, and because she didn't want her son to grow up with the stigma of being the king's elf-blooded son. It did backfire horribly, but there were good intentions on both sides.

What Alistair says about Eamon's marriage getting him into the trouble with the king contradicts some things Gaider has said on the forums, that Maric took a lot of heat for helping Orlesian expatriates stay in Ferelden and making concessions towards them. So either Alistair is mistaken or there were other circumstances. Eamon's marriage would have been controversial, for sure. Maric never seriously considered marrying Katriel. He floated the idea because he wanted it to be possible.

You really have to read the books to understand that Maric and Rowan's marriage was necessary to unite the country after a brutal occupation and revolution they barely won, in which it was difficult for the rebels to win the support of all the nobles. Sentimentality is nice, but there are political realities in the game society. It's not a fairytale.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

3. Ferelden is based on England is it not? I don't see people up in arms about Prince William marrying a commoner. In fact its one of the most publicized events right now. Also Anora is a well loved queen and acknowledged as a commoner by the nobility and citizens.

Ferelden is LOOSELY based on MEDIEVAL England, not based on modern Britain. The monarchy of modern Britain is almost purely a figurehead institution. They do not run the country, the Prime Minister and parliament do. So royal marriages are really of interest to fans of the monarchy and the tabloid press. In fact, there are a number of british people who would like to see the monarchy gone, because it serves absolutely purpose, other than the celebrity status and a draw for tourism.

Medieval England, and thus, Ferelden, are a completely different scenario. The monarchy and nobility have real power, in fact, they are the govornment itself. Thus, who they marry, and the political alliances made by such marriages are of great signifigance.

7. Your argument over Empress Celene is that she might have murdered Cailan after she married him? I suppose that would be a problem.

Not only that, but as I said, Celene is an "evil genuis". She would probably produce an heir with Cailan, and then kill him in some ingenuis way. In between that, she would be pulling his puppet strings and manipulating the Bannorn. Orlais has no intention of "uniting" with Ferelden, only assimilating it into their empire. That's what empires do, and according to the lore, Celene is imperialist in every sense of the word.

it would not be a union of equals. Orlais is the most powerful nation in Thedas currently. it is economically, socially, militarily, and religously strong. Ferelden is backwards, poor, weak, and divided. Ferelden would become yet another province of Orlais, easily. Cailan's idiot plans to marry Celene were like bringing the mouse to the cat.

Also after 1200 years of Blights its common knowledge that the darkspawn don't invade the surface in large groups and usually stay underground, hence why so many people believed they were all gone.

The darkspawn do raid the surface between Blights. They need broodmothers and ghouls. Why nobody thought this was a Blight was because the Archdemon never surfaced until much, much later, something that never happened before. When a Blight started in the past, the Archdemon was right there from the beginning, leading the horde. But during this Blight, the Archdemon did not surface until much, much later. Hence, why people just thought it was a very large darkspawn raid, since no evidence, beyond Grey Warden premonistions, existed to call it a Blight. Blights require archdemons. Archdemons normally come out to play right after they have been awakened. This one did not. Which was odd. Even the Grey Wardens were confused, despite that they could hear the call of the old god when he awakened

And whose to say how long "pretty quickly" is? The other blights lasted for decades so pretty quickly could have meant that it took two, three, or more years before an Archdemon showed itself. The Fifth Blight barely lasted one year.

As I stated before, the archdemon didn't show up until later. It didn't show up for a whole year, which has never happened before. Even towards the end of the game, it doesn't become "official" that it's a Blight until the archdemon shows up. Before that, other than grey warden dreams and premonitions (as well as actually seeing the archdemon and the horde in the deep trenches, no AD, no evidence of Blight.

Also if Loghain wasn't prejudiced against elves, how come he let Caladrius set up his little kidnapping ring in the Alienage and not say some slum where he could get human citizens too? Reason why is because he thought less of them and figured nobody would care.

He tells you in the Landsmeet when he confronts you, as well as afterwords if you recruit him. he sold the elves because he was thinking militarily. The alienage was not only the poorest quarter of denerim, it was also the least defensible are of the city. And Loghain needed money badly because he had emptied his coffers fighting the civil war and the Wardens attempts to foil him. It was a purely pragmatic descision that had nothing to do with hatred or prejudice against elves. It was simply the easiest and most practical decision for him to make at the time.

From what it sounds like, Maric was a two faced, two timing, child abandoning deadbeat, and Loghain is a traitor, a slave trader, a thug, and an utter fool.

Then you are missing the complexity of both character's stories. Yeah, Maric had a problem keeping his pants zipped around the elven ladies, and he was a deadbeat dad to both Cailan and Alistair. But it's not so simple as that. With Cailan, Rowan's death was so devestating to Maric, that he ended up withdrawing almost completely from his duties as father and king. There were also times during the rebellion where he almost abandoned that. Maric's personality is more similar at it's core to Alistair's than Cailan's, if you are wondering what kind of man he was. Like Alistair, he really didn't want to be king at all, but had to do so anyway to save his country. He was the only uniting point that kept the rebellion's spirit alive. He was very charming, and was led by his heart (and his loins) rather than his head, and this was what led him to make the mistakes that he did.

Maric should have claimed his son or heaven forbid, kept it in his pants in the first place. Making the "hard choice" so Alistair could have a real childhood really backfired. Eamon threw him out before he was ten just to please the wicked stepmother wannabe he married. Alistair had every right to be angry and bitter. Everybody abandoned him and beat him down emotionally to the point that he had no self esteem to speak of. Then the people who finally did treat him like an actual person were betrayed, slaughtered, and slandered by his father's best friend. And Cailan's at fault too, because he knew Alistair was his brother and made no effort to reach out to him, even at Ostagar when Alistair was practically ten paces away from him. At least he did think enough to make it a point that he wanted Alistair to accompany the Warden to light the signal fire. 

With Alistair, Addai already stated the reasons why he gave up
Alistair. Though his intentions were good, his unwillingness to
completely give up his son to complete strangers (such as a nice,
childless freeholder family) was bad, as giving Alistair to Eamon was
the dumbest thing he could do, both politically, as well as for
Alistair's happieness and welfare.

So yes, it was a major fail on Maric's part. However, Maric really couldn't give up the kid completely, which was selfish, and instead, put him somewhere where he could at least see his son, even if he couldn't aknowledge him.

But claiming Alistair would have created too many political problems, especially with the succession of the throne. What Maric should have done was to place Alistair with a commoner family, far removed from the throne, who would raise and love the boy as their own. This would also insure that he was beyond the knowledge and reach of the treacherous, scheming Banns who would use Maric's bastard son for their own ends. Well, lol, like Eamon pretty much did.

Loghain, whatever promises he made(and stupid ones at that), committed high treason by leaving Cailan to die. he was still alive and fighting strong. And if Loghain needed a signal fire to tell him when to attack, how could he know it was too late? If he had deployed his men they might have actually won the battle and Cailan might have lived. And if he truly loved his country he wouldn't be able to sell its citizens like livestock. Not to mention the hypocrisy from how he condemned the Orlesians for enslaving them for nearly a century, and his preaching to the Warden during the landsmeet. The man has something wrong with his mind. And the proof that I'm right is given by Loghain himself. after he's recruited he openly admits that he's done wrong and has a lot to atone for, but still cant breathe a nice word a nice word about Cailan.

Loghain's promise to put the welfare of his country and homeland above his own personal wants and desires is stupid? I disagree.

As far as the whole battle of Ostagar, I'm not going into that, because it's been debated and argued to dead over and over for the past year. But I believe Gaider said that Loghain could see a portion of the battlefield, though not the whole thing, and not the critical parts.

Anyway, I don't disagree that loghain made epic fails and completely f*cked up the country he was trying to save. Yes, he admits it, he knows he screwed up royally. And when you defeat him, he is actually glad that you have, and is glad to be relieved from power. He did not like having power. But despite not being happy in power, he did so because he believed he was saving his country by doing so, and that no one else could be trusted to make the necessary sacrifices and descsions. He was wrong, we know this.

But my point is, is not that loghain didn't screw up or fail on an epic scale, he did. I am arguing that he is not some powermad, ambitious tyrant with dreams of power and glory and dominion and personal advancement. He is a tragic figure, and a fool, who was undone by his own paranoia and dellusions of extreme patriotism. he took over the country, believing he could save it, but damned near every descision he made just made things worse.

And as far as not being right in the head, I'd agree. I don't think he was certifiably insane, but I believe his paranoia (which he had excellent reasons for) took over and warped him to the point he was making completely irrational decisions and epic failures.

[WhiteKnyght]

Well if Loghain needed war funds, why not raise taxes? That's what all the other countries do and its better than slavery. Not to mention a few nobles who support him wouldn't mind loaning money and men. he could also have had Anora change the law regarding Lyrium trade and got in on that. Probably a lot of money to be made on lyrium.

Also I don't see why claiming Alistair would cause such problems. Most of the nobles have illigitimate children(a side quest in Denerim makes it clear that the city guard is becoming full of them on their fathers' orders). Also if succession is an issue they can redo the laws to make it safer. Like as long as a legitimate heir is alive, an illigitimate heir has no claim. Problem solved.

There is little justification for a parent abandoning his child in any situation. Maric created Alistair and his mother died giving birth to him so he neeed his father and he just threw him away. Not to mention he did a number on Goldanna's life and made her bitter towards her brother. he just didn't want his wife to know he was a cheat and Loghain even mentioned that. And the least Eamon could have done was make it clear to Isolde that Alistair wasn't his son so she had no reason to feel threatened by him.

And yes, if Loghain is willing to commit heinous crimes(he's supposed to be a patriot, aren't they pretty firm believers in their laws), and resort to despicable and immoral means then he's just making his country and homeland into a joke. A leader needs morals and integrity, not suspicion and cold logic(not to mention his logic was screwy anyway).

And not to mention when Loghain hears Riordan explain how an Archdemon dies he makes like no reaction to it. That would have been the moment for him to see just how badly he did err. And an appropriate response would have made him look a lot better. But Loghain still acted like his way would have worked.

[Addai]

The story about Alistair's mother is not necessarily what really happened. If you read The Calling, there is implication that his mother was not a maid in Redcliffe at all.

Loghain's logic about Orlais is not "screwy." He's a hardliner on the subject whereas others are not, but he has perfectly good reasons to believe as he does. As for "why not raise taxes"... Because he's in a civil war? Nobody's paying taxes. That's like saying the southern confederacy should have raised taxes on the North in the US Civil War. The few allies he had were being drained as it was, and Howe was siphoning off money for his own pocket. Loghain needed cash in a hurry to pay his armies. That doesn't excuse what he did to raise those funds, but that's the reality.

I don't think there's much point in debate when you're missing a lot of information and frankly, not looking at the game story very realistically either.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Well if Loghain needed war funds, why not raise taxes? That's what all the other countries do and its better than slavery. Not to mention a few nobles who support him wouldn't mind loaning money and men. he could also have had Anora change the law regarding Lyrium trade and got in on that. Probably a lot of money to be made on lyrium.

Several problems here. Addai addressed why he couldn't raise taxes. It's a civil war. You can't tax people when they are shooting at you or trying to kill one another.

He had already exhausted the resources of himself and his allies. Ferelden is a very poor country, with very little in terms of resources or money. He needed funds and he needed them quickly. With a civil war and Blight going on, about the only resource for trade Loghain had was the elves. Of whom few people really cared about. The nobles in the Landsmeet objected to his selling of elves into slavery on legal principles. Slavery is illegal in Ferelden. Not because anyone gives a sh*t about the elves. The majority of Fereldens see elves as an inferior people who are really only fit for servile tasks in the first place. They just don't believe elves should be owned.

And as far as lyrium goes, that's the Chantry's area of control. The Chantry has the monopoly on lyrium, and the Chantry is not under the authority of the crown. Anora nor Loghain could do squat without directly attacking and removing the Chantry. Which would have resulted in an exalted march on Ferelden from the Chantry (and by extension, Orlais) on top of a civil war and Blight.

Elven slaves were, at that point, the only commodity Ferelden had for sale.

Also I don't see why claiming Alistair would cause such problems. Most of the nobles have illigitimate children(a side quest in Denerim makes it clear that the city guard is becoming full of them on their fathers' orders). Also if succession is an issue they can redo the laws to make it safer. Like as long as a legitimate heir is alive, an illigitimate heir has no claim. Problem solved.

The nobility are not the royalty. They can afford to produce bastards, because beyond their own immediate sphere of influence. Thus, bastard children really aren't a problem for them. With a king, it's different. While most nobles do not care if Bann Smith and his family, the throne is different, because the throne effects the entire country. Thus, the question of the throne is a larger issue than who takes over Bann Smith's holdings when he dies.

And you act is if laws really matter. They don't. Nobles follow laws when convient to their purposes, but behind the scenes, they scheme and plot, and if a law interferes with their ambitions, they will always find a way around it. Laws would not stop ambitous, scheming nobles from using Alistair to further their own ambitions.

There is little justification for a parent abandoning his child in any situation. Maric created Alistair and his mother died giving birth to him so he neeed his father and he just threw him away. Not to mention he did a number on Goldanna's life and made her bitter towards her brother. he just didn't want his wife to know he was a cheat and Loghain even mentioned that. And the least Eamon could have done was make it clear to Isolde that Alistair wasn't his son so she had no reason to feel threatened by him.

You are applying 20th century Western ideas to a fictional world that is modeled on Medieval European feudalism and city states. The nobility has always been different, even in their family relationships, to the common folk. Thus, our ideas of what a proper father would do are irrelevant and unrealistic when applied to a monarchy/dynasty that is ruling an entire nation.

Maric giving up Alistair was a good thing. How he went about it was not.

In fact, Maric's turning Alistair over to Eamon is a prime example of why a king can't afford to have known bastards running about in such an unstable situation. Because you have ambitous, cunning nobles like Eamon who will use the lad for their own ends, whether he likes it or not. The best thing that should have happened would be Alistair given to some stable, financially secure commoner/free holder family who would not know of the boy's parentage, and the nobility would be unaware of it, either. Alistair could have had a happy childhood and grown up to be a very happy, well adjusted young man who would have had a happy, stable life and become an asset to his local community.

But no. Maric handed him over to one of the scheming nobles he should have been more wary of (even if Eamon was Rowan's brother, family sentimentality seldom, if ever, gets in the way of ambitions for power when it comes to nobility). And Eamon, true to nature of the nobility, basically negelcted and broke the boy, keeping him confused, insecure, and needy. Which would make hima perfect tool for Eamon's subtle power grabs, as seen when he calls the Landsmeet, and before the Landsmeet happens, is already talking about putting an unready and unwilling youth on the throne, with Eamon as "advisor".

Puppetmaster indeed.

And yes, if Loghain is willing to commit heinous crimes(he's supposed to be a patriot, aren't they pretty firm believers in their laws), and resort to despicable and immoral means then he's just making his country and homeland into a joke. A leader needs morals and integrity, not suspicion and cold logic(not to mention his logic was screwy anyway).

No, a good leader does not rely on morals and integrity, he/she relies on realism, pragmatism, and a long term plan for his country. preferably, a long term vision that carrys on beyond his own lifetime. Morals and integrity? Nice thing to have in conuunction with the before mentioned, but not as the sole, guiding force for leadership and decision making.

Anyway, about the only heinous crime Loghain committed, as far as I'm concerned, is selling off the elves into slavery. beyond that, no. I pretty much agree, at least in spirit, with most of the other "crimes", though his execution was poor. And of course, like Addai said, when it came to orlais, his reasoning wasn't screwy. His priorities in dealing with the importance of the threats was screwy and foolish. Orlais was still a threat, and a very real one, but it wasn't as immidiate and dire as the Blight that was eating up the country.

And not to mention when Loghain hears Riordan explain how an Archdemon dies he makes like no reaction to it. That would have been the moment for him to see just how badly he did err. And an appropriate response would have made him look a lot better. But Loghain still acted like his way would have worked.

And just what reaction would you consider acceptable? Loghain already knows he screwed up, he's already admitted it umpteen times since you've spared him. He doesn't claim otherwise. So why should he start wringing his hands and tearing at his clothing because of this revelation? He's not an outwardly emotional man given to excessive and pointless displays. He's already accepted his failings.

[WhiteKnyght]

1. Loghain's realism and pragmatics almost destroyed Ferelden, whatever the circumstances are. And you cant prove that he would have done anything differently even if he was told all the truths, for all you know he might have been too blind to believe any of it. The idealists and moralists were the ones who ultimately lead Ferelden to victory. If Loghain's ideas were the right ones, he'd be the star character and not the Warden.

2. You say Loghain did what he did because Maric made him promise that he would, but you also say that Maric was naive and foolish and needed Loghain and Rowan to keep him in line. So couldn't it stand to reason that Maric's promise was just as foolish as anything else he had done?

3. Alistair's mother was gone and his father owed it to him to claim him. I don't care what the standards were for parenting and royalty in the middle ages. There is a reason we don't live by those standards anymore, isn't there? Maric's a pig, a deadbeat, and an idiot. A lot of kids resent their parents and adoptive parents after they find out they were adopted.

4. I seriously doubt the nobility were bled dry of their money. They always seemed to have enough to stay in there big mansions, keep all their servants(Howe was the only one getting complaints about not paying them their wages.), and spend their time If Loghain knew Howe was siphoning money off he should have gotten rid of him, not to mention how Howe was only supposed to delay Bryce Cousland on Loghain's order, but murdered him and his entire family instead. Loghain could have arguably done a lot better if he had a different right hand. Which is more proof that the man is a fool.

5. As for bring an exalted march down on Ferelden. There wasn't exactly a religious war after Alistair or Anora frees the Circle of Magi at the request of the Warden. I'd think losing their hold on magic would hurt more than another player in the lyrium trade.

@Addai: If Alistair's mother wasn't a servant at Redcliffe castle, how come that fact was what jogged Goldanna's memory? And Maric was the king. If he knew something to be wrong he was the one with the power to change it.  Change has to come eventually, otherwise we'd still be living in that age. The duty of a leader isn't just to keep his country from falling apart, its also his duty to make thing's better. Thats why I prefer Bhelen to rule Orzammar. he may be a murdering snake(Harrowmont or any Dwarf noble isn't much better which makes the choice easier), but he does prove to be a good reformer.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 16 mars 2011 - 10:17 .

[Addai]

You're assuming the Warden is an idealist. That is entirely a matter of opinion and roleplay perspective. Loghain is always found guilty of treason, so that's not really the issue, nor would anyone argue that he didn't make mistakes that could have been disastrous. He admits this if you spare him.

Maric is not a pig. He's not a good father (neither is Loghain), but he's basically a decent man who failed his son out of good intentions. He never wanted to be king himself and believed that the best thing for Alistair would be to be able to live free of his legacy.

If in fact Alistair is the baby in The Calling, Goldanna is either mistaken (she was obviously not at the castle at the time of the baby's birth- she was told about it) or she was paid to give the king's baby a cover story and then decided to try to blackmail them. Her name is not a coincidence.

What "change" are you talking about? Maric and Loghain pulled off an incredible military victory and re-established the Fereldan monarchy after 70 years of brutal pillage. There was a lot of unrest, and the fact that they were able to establish relative peace is also quite a feat. What sort of social revolution do you picture any Fereldan king able to institute? You mention Bhelen. Bhelen is a tyrant who is enforcing social change on Orzammar through murder, intimidation and absolutism. Is that really the sort of king you think Maric ought to have been?

You need to read the novels.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 mars 2011 - 02:48 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Even if they did free Ferelden there were still a lot of things about their society and laws that needed to be fixed. Compare the way our world has improved since the medieval times. Maric took Ferelden back from Orlais and put the pieces back together. he had the right to improve it from the way it used to be. When Calenhad united the Tyrnirs/Arlings/Bannorns and founded Ferelden he made it how he wanted it to be, did he not?

Also as for Bhelen, dwarven politics have always been full of murder, intimidation, and absolutism. Its a shark tank, Bhelen just doesn't hide his as well. Bhelen's changes make the lives of the general population better, not just a specific class.