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[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
As far as Anora goes, she takes power 30 years AFTER Ferelden is liberated. 30 years is enough time to reasonably develop a better economy and things to trade. As smart as Anora is, if Ferelden were as economically weak as it was when Maric took power, she herself would not have been able to refil the coffers so quickly.

Not to mention that she got her education because of Maric.  That useless dolt. 

The Blight did take more than the Wilds by end of game time, though- Southern is in the Bannorn, and it's been completely taken, also the southern areas of Redcliffe.  The impression I get is that it is spreading.  You start encountering darkspawn encounters all over.

[Addai]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Well the United States started out as colonies under British rule but we revolted, won our independence just as Ferelden did, and we arguably had a lot less to work with and were facing an enemy just as big and powerful. And when we won the war we wrote our own laws and did things our way, the same that Maric could have done when he defeated Orlais. It took a civil war to end slavery, and a lot of protests to gain more equal rights, but it wouldn't have happened at all if nobody had cared to try. It's not necessarily that change comes in small steps, it's that nobody in Ferelden who can change things cares to.

Entirely different situations.  Britain was a mother country, not a brutal occupier.  We kept the essentials of British law and indeed the revolutionaries saw themselves as simply standing up for their rights as British citizens.  The US also had a very turbulent history, was propped up by foreign powers namely France, and all of this assumes that the US system is the be-all end-all which is a big assumption.

Maric restored the Fereldan traditions- that is what they were fighting for, not to overturn them.  Anyway just what is it that you think he ought to do?  I agree he could have done more for elves, but I'm not even sure what you're blaming him for.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Well the United States started out as colonies under British rule but we revolted, won our independence just as Ferelden did, and we arguably had a lot less to work with and were facing an enemy just as big and powerful. And when we won the war we wrote our own laws and did things our way, the same that Maric could have done when he defeated Orlais. It took a civil war to end slavery, and a lot of protests to gain more equal rights, but it wouldn't have happened at all if nobody had cared to try. It's not necessarily that change comes in small steps, it's that nobody in Ferelden who can change things cares to.

Apples and Oranges, two completely different scenarios. The US and Ferelden are nothing alike. The US started out as volunteer colonies of European powers, then broke away and rebelled when a particular corrupt, ineffective monarch continued to ****** them off.  Culturally, we were very similar in our laws and customs to the British.

Ferelden, by contrast, was not a colony. It had been an independant nation for some 300 years, with its own legal systems, language, culture, value, traditions, and government that was completely independant and unrelated to those of the Orlesians. The orlesians were not a mother country that was overstepping its bounds, it was a foreign army with a vastly different system invading another country and oppressing it from the start.

There are also too many other differences to point out, the only thing that matters is the Ferelden rebellion and American Revolution are apples and oranges.

An easy way to prevent nobles from rebelling in Ferelden would be to pass a law forbidding them from having their own private armies and simply stationing soldiers that are loyal to the crown in their territories to defend them. If nobles are petty children do they really need to be given dangerous toys?

Which would actually be an excellent start. Though I disagree with others on exactly what degree of centralization is needed in Ferelden, I do believe the military is one aspect of Ferelden's society that needs to be centralized. Trusting the defense of your nation to the unequal, unorganized militaries of a hundred petty warlord wannabes is stupid. I believe the nobility should be stripped of their large armies and limited to keeping a small, provincial force to keep order within their lands and assist in times of crisis or chaos and panic. basically, like a national Guard, ferelden Style. But the bulk of the troops in Ferelden should be under the direct authority of the crown, doing what armies are supposed to do: defend their nations borders and provide deterence from aggressive neighbors. Not being used so Bann Moron can invade Bann Retards lands and freeholders because he doesn't like what Bann Retard named his dog.

Yeah, the Bannorn and the rest of the nobility have definitely proved they aren't smart or mature enough to be in command of whole armies. Of course, demilitarizing the Bannoron is something much easier said than done, and it's not something you just say "do as I command", and they will comply. Loggy learned this the hard way.

Actually
if you pay attention to the world map the blight spreads out through
the course of the game. By the time you've gotten the third treaty
fulfilled it covers over half of Ferelden.

That "half" of Ferelden is mostly the Kocari wilds, and southermost areas of the Bannoron. In otherwords, very sparsely populated areas of mostly wilderness. The most populated regions are all concentrated up on the northern Coast and central to northern Bannorn, which remained Blight Free for the majority of the game, until Landsmeet was called. The only reason the Blight made any impact (much later in the game, after 2 or so quests done) is that it reached the southern Bannoron, which is mostly agricultural farmland and countryside, similar to Lothering.

It is the Costal areas of Denerim, Amaranthine, and Highever where the most industry and economic activity takes place, and it is in those areas much of the civil war was fought.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Not to mention that she got her education because of Maric.  That useless dolt. 

Lol, yeah, good point. I imagine he figured that Cailan might end up too much like him, and thus, like he had Rowan, wanted to make sure that Cailan's future spouse would be well suited to the task. One of the few areas where maric showed pretty good foresight.

The Blight did take more than the Wilds by end of game time, though- Southern is in the Bannorn, and it's been completely taken, also the southern areas of Redcliffe.  The impression I get is that it is spreading.  You start encountering darkspawn encounters all over.

It spread, but not the main invasion force, just more of wandering shock troops to go first. the AD was still underground. Though areas in past Blights have been corrupted and destroyed, those Blights went on much longer, and were more brutal. This Blight barely started before it was squashed. I'd imagine given the brief period in which the darkspawn are on the surface, any damage will clear up alot quicker than it did in other countries that had been stricken by Blights. The taint seems to be something that spreads at a releatively slow, but intense and steady rate.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Skadi. You are forgetting that the blight's destruction is immense not via darkspawn only. But plague and disease. Lands that are touched by the blight are ravaged. And there is evidence that this happened in Ferelden, with the presence of corrupted animals.

So I am not convinced at all that the Orlesians were more damaging to Ferelden's economy than the blight. Also, it was the Orlesians who built Amaranthine in the first place, one of the wealthiest cities of Ferelden today. So no, the relationship was not purely one way exploitation. The argument that Anora inherited Ferelden after 30 years of independence being so much different than inheriting a Ferelden that was ravaged by the blight and civil war, does not hold up. The death of cattle, devastation of farms and many many refugees means that Anora inherited a very fragile country on the verge of collapse. 

EDIT: and all the Coastlands were also affected by the civil war and with rioting.
And those 30 years that Anora inherited were not marked by stability and did not establish a system that was truly stable. The civil war shows that.

@ Addai.
Because hiring teachers is such a mark of excellence. Unless you believe that Maric personally taught Anora, which is not the case as Eamon said. "The best tutoring money could buy". No sign of brilliance there.

Which makes me wonder why Maric didn't spend the same amount of money to teach his imbecile son.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 08:57 .

[Addai]

Well I didn't mean to suggest Maric sat down and taught her her 1-2-3's. However who do you think she learned governance from if not her father and Maric?  The difference between her and Cailan is that with her, the lessons took.  But I'll leave you alone, we both know this is not going anywhere good.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 mars 2011 - 09:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Like Eamon said. Tutors. And seeing how Rowan and Loghain were doing most of the governance anyways, I doubt it's Maric who will teach her this even if they didn't have tutors.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Skadi. You are forgetting that the blight's destruction is immense not via darkspawn only. But plague and disease. Lands that are touched by the blight are ravaged. And there is evidence that this happened in Ferelden, with the presence of corrupted animals.

So I am not convinced at all that the Orlesians were more damaging to Ferelden's economy than the blight. Also, it was the Orlesians who built Amaranthine in the first place, one of the wealthiest cities of Ferelden today. So no, the relationship was not purely one way exploitation. The argument that Anora inherited Ferelden after 30 years of independence being so much different than inheriting a Ferelden that was ravaged by the blight and civil war, does not hold up. The death of cattle, devastation of farms and many many refugees means that Anora inherited a very fragile country on the verge of collapse. 

EDIT: and all the Coastlands were also affected by the civil war and with rioting.
And those 30 years that Anora inherited were not marked by stability and did not establish a system that was truly stable. The civil war shows that.

Again, the point is, is that the hit on Ferelden was pretty minor. Anora was able to rebuild the country relatively quickly after. In previous Blights, the land and the country hit took decades to rebuild. Most of the damage done was from the civil war. The biggest problems following the Blight, if Origins epilogues, Awakening, and Witch hunt, Ferelden doesn't seem much worse for the wear, as far as expected Blight damage done. In WH, hovering over Lothering shows people have returned, including many original survivors, and are rebuilding the village and getting things back to normal. Since Witch Hunt is a couple of years after origins, and considering Lothering was sacked and Blighted longer than the rest of the country, that tells me the impact of the Blight, long term, seems to be pretty minimal. Everything seems to be pretty much back to normal, or close to it (including the usual petty bickering and divisive power plays of the nobility).

In contrast, when one learns about locations that were hit by previous Blights, the codexes suggest it took decades for the place to get back to normal, as well as the whole of Thedas. So I have come to the conclusion that the majority of damage was caused by the civil war, and the masses of refugees and other displaced persons fleeing and becoming scattered here, there, and everywhere. The Blight, because it had been stopped barely before it began, did not have the opportunity to cause the same scale of damage. Plagues included, since other than a few outbreaks of the Blight here and there, nothing suggests it to be a continuing problem on a scale enough to matter in the larger scheme of things.

@ Addai.
Because hiring teachers is such a mark of excellence. Unless you believe that Maric personally taught Anora, which is not the case as Eamon said. "The best tutoring money could buy". No sign of brilliance there.

Which makes me wonder why Maric didn't spend the same amount of money to teach his imbecile son.

Whose to say he didn't? Maric could hire the best tutors in the world, won't help if his son is terminally stupid. Hiring tutors, I do not think, has anything to do with brilliance, and more to do with foreight and common sense. In otherwords, he knew the value of proper education, something most of Ferelden's nobility seem not to get.

And is probably part of what inspired Anora to want to create a University as well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Again, the point is, is that the hit on Ferelden was pretty minor.

Relatively minor, compared to previous blights. That doesn't mean that the damage was minor, especially not to a backward country like Ferelden.

Denerim was severily damaged and it is the most important city. Redcliffe was severily damaged, by undead and darkspawn. The country had a massive outflow of refugees, many of whom did not return after years, according to DA2. Civil war which affected both the bannorn and the coastlands. Damage to the land that while may not be as bad as previous blights, was still damaging, with dead cattle (which we see in two instances) and blighted animals.

Add to that the Amaranthine crisis, which also devastated the Arling and potentially destroyed the city. The farmlands were ravaged in a matter of weeks, so there is no reason to expect the blight being less devastating.

All of these put together does not constitute "minor damage" for a country like Ferelden. So the situation Anora inherited is not better than what Maric inherited.  It's worse. And the political system she inherited from Maric proved to be a failure.  If Anora was Queen of Ferelden right after the Orlesian occupation, I think she would have fared better. Would her options be limited? Sure. She'd do better than Maric, who he himself would have been useless without Rowan and Loghain.

Of course, since she does not have the Therein name however, she couldn't have been the figurehead of the rebellion. Or would have had a very hard time doing it.  

Whose to say he didn't? Maric could hire the best tutors in the world, won't help if his son is terminally stupid. Hiring tutors, I do not think, has anything to do with brilliance, and more to do with foreight and common sense. In otherwords, he knew the value of proper education, something most of Ferelden's nobility seem not to get.

And is probably part of what inspired Anora to want to create a University as well.

We already established that he is a very bad father and even if he did provide education to his child, he didn't know how to raise him properly to use that education.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Like Eamon said. Tutors. And seeing how Rowan and Loghain were doing most of the governance anyways, I doubt it's Maric who will teach her this even if they didn't have tutors.

Completely your assumption.  TC says that Rowan became very domestic after she became queen, and she was only around a couple years.  So yeah.  Whatever.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Like Eamon said. Tutors. And seeing how Rowan and Loghain were doing most of the governance anyways, I doubt it's Maric who will teach her this even if they didn't have tutors.

Completely your assumption.  TC says that Rowan became very domestic after she became queen, and she was only around a couple years.  So yeah.  Whatever.

If I remember correctly, Duncan deduced that the real power behind the throne was Loghain. Loghain was almost always in Denerim.

In any case, since I do not wish to offend your fascination with Maric that much, I'll say that I do not think he is a horrible king. Just barely decent. 

But when compared to the likes of Bhelen, Anora or Celene, he's way out of his league.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 10:09 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Relatively minor, compared to previous blights. That doesn't mean that the damage was minor, especially not to a backward country like Ferelden.

Denerim was severily damaged and it is the most important city. Redcliffe was severily damaged, by undead and darkspawn. The country had a massive outflow of refugees, many of whom did not return after years, according to DA2. Civil war which affected both the bannorn and the coastlands. Damage to the land that while may not be as bad as previous blights, was still damaging, with dead cattle (which we see in two instances) and blighted animals.

Add to that the Amaranthine crisis, which also devastated the Arling and potentially destroyed the city. The farmlands were ravaged in a matter of weeks, so there is no reason to expect the blight being less devastating.

All of these put together does not constitute "minor damage" for a country like Ferelden. So the situation Anora inherited is not better than what Maric inherited.  It's worse. And the political system she inherited from Maric proved to be a failure.  If Anora was Queen of Ferelden right after the Orlesian occupation, I think she would have fared better. Would her options be limtied? Sure. She'd do better than Maric, who he himself would have been useless without Rowan and Loghain.

Obviously it wasn't that bad, if, within a few years, Amaranthine was becoming so important and wealthy that pirates were attacking its shipping after being paid to by others who were worried in DA2. If Lothering is considered suitable to rebuild despite being Blighted the longest. I still think that the majority of damage done to the country was from the civil war. Whether Ferelden is backwards or not, the Blight doesn't seem to have done to the country what the occupation did. the Blight/civil war only lasted a year, the occupation decades. And yes, while the orlesians built up Amaranthine for thier own use, it doesn't change the fact that the wealth gained from its ports went to them. or the fact they pretty much came in and took much of the country's wealth and sent it back to Orlais. When the orlesians left, they took everything they could. The probably took the majority of the country's gold reserves, and important commodity. And I highly doubt they paid repairations, either.

Post Blight, Ferelden seems to have more stability and hope than it did post orlais, and that's saying alot.

We already established that he is a very bad father and even if he did provide education to his child, he didn't know how to raise him properly to use that education.

A bad father, yes. But he cannot teach his son the art of something he himself knows little about, and is mostly learning as he goes, flying by wire. Maric was ill-prepared to be king when it fell on to him, and he was being oulled through by Loghain and Rowan. He was a highly flawed king who was pretty ill-suited and unhappy in his task, and had to learn some very painful lessons. He was a failure as a father, true. And at times, a failure as king. But he wasn't a complete fail like Cailan was, and he wasn't a useless or even impotent king. Given the nature of his situation, his country, and the society he's in, he did well enough.

Gaider's point with maric was not to draw up a great visionary or brilliant political mind, but to show the very flawed, but realistically so, human element behind Maric's legendary status, and how popuylar perception is often far from reality.

[Addai]

And how did Loghain's governance without Maric go? Not so hot. Loghain also helped raise and train Cailan, so if you want to blame Maric for Cailan but not give him credit for how Anora turned out, it demonstrates why we can't discuss the topic. You refuse to look at the matter fairly.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
A bad father, yes. But he cannot teach his son the art of something he himself knows little about, and is mostly learning as he goes, flying by wire. Maric was ill-prepared to be king when it fell on to him, and he was being oulled through by Loghain and Rowan.

I think that's overstating it.  Already in TST, Maric was assuming the role of leadership in both military and civil affairs.  Moira had educated him, though obviously there were limitations and he was still very young.

Loghain was an enforcer, not a poltiician.  Rowan had had the benefit of Rendorn's training, but so did Maric during the rebellion.  I don't recall anything being said about Rowan's political involvement after the war.  It talks about Maric facing the Landsmeet, not Rowan.  The comment about her being more domestic and settled tells me she was not at the forefront of politics after the war, though I'm sure she had her own influence.  They were all more powerful together than they were individually.

Gaider's point with maric was not to draw up a great visionary or brilliant political mind, but to show the very flawed, but realistically so, human element behind Maric's legendary status, and how popuylar perception is often far from reality.

Agreed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Obviously it wasn't that bad, if, within a few years, Amaranthine was becoming so important and wealthy that pirates were attacking its shipping after being paid to by others who were worried in DA2.

If the city is saved. The country side in the arling is a different case.

And yes, while the orlesians built up Amaranthine for thier own use, it doesn't change the fact that the wealth gained from its ports went to them.

They left the infrastructure. That's the source of long term development. Not the gold that they took, which can always be replaced.

The blight damages and destroys infrastructure. That is real damage. As much as Ferelden like to whine about Orlesian occupation, and rightfully so, to equate the damage done by that to the blight and a civil war is meh.  

It's precseily because the blight and the civil war happened so fast that the damage caused comes as a shock. A sustained level of exploitation, while not great, is different. The Orlesians certainly did not go in and just devastate the land, that would be idiotic for their own interets. And they can't take everything right away, because there wouldn't be a point to occupy it for so long. The blight has no interest in preserving anything. One year of blight is more devstating than a century of human occupation. Because occupation, no matter how brutal it is =/= mass devastation, which is what the blight is.  

Post Blight, Ferelden seems to have more stability and hope than it did post orlais, and that's saying alot.

Which could be primarly due to Maric's mediocrity as king.
But not by that much and WH implies that. If Alistair is exiled, a rebellion happens against Anora.

So long as the idiotic bannorn exists like this, there will always be instability.
And whatever stability in Ferelden has now can just be attritubed to the fact that they just had a civil war. Even they know when they have to rest.  

And the hope that Ferelden has can be attributed to the successes of Anora and Alsitair. Both of which, I think, are better than Maric. If Maric was post-blight, I don't see him faring as well as Alistair, let alone Anora.

 But he wasn't a complete fail like Cailan was, and he wasn't a useless or even impotent king. Given the nature of his situation, his country, and the society he's in, he did well enough.

I never said he was a disaster like Cailan. At best, a mediocre king who kept the peace and even that, I wouldn't attribute it to him. But his name in large part, and Loghain. 

Gaider's point with maric was not to draw up a great visionary or brilliant political mind, but to show the very flawed, but realistically so, human element behind Maric's legendary status, and how popuylar perception is often far from reality.

Very far from reality, as the case might be.
I know that. Except Gaider created a poor character, but that's besides the point. I don't really care about him as a person nor was I talking about him as a person.

My point was, Maric, while not horrible, was not the best king Ferelden could have post Orlais. And that Anora would have faired better.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 10:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

And how did Loghain's governance without Maric go? Not so hot. Loghain also helped raise and train Cailan, so if you want to blame Maric for Cailan but not give him credit for how Anora turned out, it demonstrates why we can't discuss the topic. You refuse to look at the matter fairly.

We had a debate not too long ago and I was arguing that Loghain was politically incompetent. Better than Maric, but without his name and without his ability to talk to nobles, he is politically incompetent.

And I've always said, Loghain was foolish to ever think there can be anything good coming from Cailan.   That he should have eliminated the brat a long time ago, or neutralized him if he is so intent on keeping him alive.

I am taking the matter very fairly. The reason why I respect Loghain and don't feel the same towards Maric, barring the differences in personality, is because Loghain is at least a genius at something. The military. Maric, other than his name and maybe his ability to talk to the nobility (which proved useless on its own until Loghain intervened. One was the carrot and the othe was the stick. Both alone were useless), has nothing else. 

Neither Maric nor Loghain (as anything other than a general) are what Ferelden needs and I was always very clear on that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 10:54 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

I think that's overstating it.  Already in TST, Maric was assuming the role of leadership in both military and civil affairs.  Moira had educated him, though obviously there were limitations and he was still very young.

Moira didn't educate him in the unspoken, more subtle matters of being a king. For example, how to avoid "honey pot traps", something the orlesians and their bards are notrious for. I mean, Maric falling for Katriel and being seduced so quickly and easily is what you'd expect of a normal 18 year old lad. Moire should have considered this the moment he hit puberty that eventually, he'd hit that stage, and needed educating in this tactic and avoiding it. Preferably, from a close, trustworthy male figure.

But in general, yes, it's hard to be a single mom on the run, trying to unite a bunch of petty, treacherous little lords and motivate them to actually care about their country for a change, trying to make friends and influence people, rally troops, conduct armed raids and attacks on orlesian forces....and still have time to teach Jr. how to be a king someday. I think she did what she could, with what she had.

Loghain was an enforcer, not a poltiician.  Rowan had had the benefit of Rendorn's training, but so did Maric during the rebellion.  I don't recall anything being said about Rowan's political involvement after the war.  It talks about Maric facing the Landsmeet, not Rowan.  The comment about her being more domestic and settled tells me she was not at the forefront of politics after the war, though I'm sure she had her own influence.  They were all more powerful together than they were individually.

Maric was the politician, but to be the successful one, he needed alot of the harder qualities Loghain possesed, along with being a politican. Where as Loghain had the enforcer bit nailed, but lacked the subtler aspects and restraint in certain areas one needs to be successful politically. Rowan, in turn, tempered Maric's tendancies towards recklessness and romanticism, and kept him grounded and focused. Maric needed them to function efficiently, due to his personality and nature. He could not play the enforcer unless Loghain goaded him to, and we see what happened to Maric when Rowan died. Whatever role she played in Marics rule, it was probably more signifigant than Loghain's, because maric became a deadbeat king even with Loggy around.

[KnightofPhoenix]

To add on Skadi.
Loghain, Maric and Rowan, on their own, are useless.
When all 3 are collaborating, especially Maric and Loghain on the outside (Rowan for emotional support), that you get a functional system. Like I said before, Maric was the carrot, Loghain was the stick. Together, they functioned, though not brilliantly.

But neither on his own right can be called a good politician. Neither were. Bhelen, on the other hand, on his own is a brilliant politician who mastered the art of coercion and cooptation. Anora as well, though leaning more towards cooptation, as the differences of her country demand.

If we want real world examples, Augustus would be a master at playing carrot and stick. Abd al-Rahman al-Dakhil as well.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 11:04 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They left the infrastructure. That's the source of long term development. Not the gold that they took, which can always be replaced.

The blight damages and destroys infrastructure. That is real damage. As much as Ferelden like to whine about Orlesian occupation, and rightfully so, to equate the damage done by that to the blight and a civil war is meh.  

It's precseily because the blight and the civil war happened so fast that the damage caused comes as a shock. A sustained level of exploitation, while not great, is different. The Orlesians certainly did not go in and just devastate the land, that would be idiotic for their own interets. And they can't take everything right away, because there wouldn't be a point to occupy it for so long. The blight has no interest in preserving anything. One year of blight is more devstating than a century of human occupation. Because occupation, no matter how brutal it is =/= mass devastation, which is what the blight is.

Yet Ferelden seems to be recovering quicker post Blight than it did post-Orlais. If you wish to attribute this to Arcturus/Anora/Alistair/Cousland's leadership as being better than Maric's that's fine. 30 Years of independance with only one year of civil war and Blight seems to have bounced back quicker than 80 years of brutal human occupation.

Which could be primarly due to Maric's mediocrity as king.
But not by that much and WH implies that. If Alistair is exiled, a rebellion happens against Anora.

No matter who is on the throne come Witch Hunt, there's even bigger problems if Redcliffe has been saved. Though who is controling Redcliffe at this point is a mystery.

So long as the idiotic bannorn exists like this, there will always be instability.
And whatever stability in Ferelden has now can just be attritubed to the fact that they just had a civil war. Even they know when they have to rest.  

Not really. Awakening, being a mere 6 months after origins supposedly, begins with your monarch of choice stopping by to give you your arling on their way to deal with the idiots in the Bannoron. With pretty large contingents of soldiers with them, so I'm guessing they are not on their way to a barbecue.

And the hope that Ferelden has can be attributed to the successes of Anora and Alsitair. Both of which, I think, are better than Maric. If Maric was post-blight, I don't see him faring as well as Alistair, let alone Anora.

Alone, probably not.

Very far from reality, as the case might be.
I know that. Except Gaider created a poor character, but that's besides the point. I don't really care about him as a person nor was I talking about him as a person.

My point was, Maric, while not horrible, was not the best king Ferelden could have post Orlais. And that Anora would have faired better.

Yet who in Maric's time would have fared better than he, when Anora wasn't even a twinkle in her daddy's eye?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To add on Skadi.
Loghain, Maric and Rowan, on their own, are useless.
When all 3 are collaborating, especially Maric and Loghain on the outside (Rowan for emotional support), that you get a functional system. Like I said before, Maric was the carrot, Loghain was the stick. Together, they functioned, though not brilliantly.

But neither on his own right can be called a good politician. Neither were. Bhelen, on the other hand, on his own is a brilliant politician who mastered the art of coercion and cooptation. Anora as well, though leaning more towards cooptation, as the differences of her country demand.

If we want real world examples, Augustus would be a master at playing carrot and stick. Abd al-Rahman al-Dakhil as well.

Nor was I ever saying they were brilliant. Nor did I really expect them to. If they were, there would be little use for a story. maric isn't interesting to me because he was a politican, it is because he's a parable, a mathaphor for other things. But in his context with his two closest friends and advisors, he did good enough to manage to drive the Orlesians out. And keep them out. If you're looking for brilliance, you might be expecting too much. This is Ferelden.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Yet Ferelden seems to be recovering quicker post Blight than it did post-Orlais. If you wish to attribute this to Arcturus/Anora/Alistair/Cousland's leadership as being better than Maric's that's fine.

And that's what I am primarily doing.
Still not convinced that Orlesian occupation is more devastating than the blight though. At least materially. Psycologically, I can see that a 80 years occupation with sustained exploitation and mistreatment is worse than a year of chaos. And that could reflect materially as well.
Of course devastation should be calculated per year.Obviously if you add the entire costs brought upon by the occupation and compare it to the blight, it might be more devasting. But it wouldn't be taking into account time.

Like say for instance: 1 million dead in 80 years is more than 200.000 in 1 year, in terms of pure numbers. But which is really more devastating?  Simplistic example, but just to illustrate my point.

When you are part of a country that almost single-handedely defeated the blight, a victory that somewhat eclipses the civil war, you'd have hope I suspect.  

No matter who is on the throne come Witch Hunt, there's even bigger problems if Redcliffe has been saved. Though who is controling Redcliffe at this point is a mystery.

Eamon is the most likely candidate. I doubt it's Teagan. Factions in Orlais could be at play as well.

Not really. Awakening, being a mere 6 months after origins supposedly, begins with your monarch of choice stopping by to give you your arling on their way to deal with the idiots in the Bannoron. With pretty large contingents of soldiers with them, so I'm guessing they are not on their way to a barbecue.

But that hardly counts as civil war. It's relatively stable, for now, though of course the banns being what they are are always going to stir trouble.

Yet who in Maric's time would have fared better than he, when Anora wasn't even a twinkle in her daddy's eye?

As the only Therein alive, no one.

But I ask. Replace Maric with anyone with an IQ higher than Cailan and give him the Therein name and Loghain's support. Wouldn't he fare just as well? Maybe even better, as the debacle at West hill could have been avoided.

In TST, I don't see Maric with that much skill. Loghain was pure skill, a bit in politics but much more in military. One thing Maric did that was skillfull was get the Legion of the dead to help (though I doubt Kardol would have wasted his time on him). How crucial that was is debatable.  I see Maric being crucial primarily for his name and his symbolic value. Other than that, not so much and I think Ferelden could have liberated itself just as well if not better if Maric was replaced by any Therein, except Cailan. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Nor was I ever saying they were brilliant. Nor did I really expect them to. If they were, there would be little use for a story. maric isn't interesting to me because he was a politican, it is because he's a parable, a mathaphor for other things. But in his context with his two closest friends and advisors, he did good enough to manage to drive the Orlesians out. And keep them out. If you're looking for brilliance, you might be expecting too much. This is Ferelden.

That comment was not really directed at you, I know you don't find him brilliant

I disagree that brilliant leaders can't have an interesting story, but that's subjective tastes I suppose. I didn't find Maric that interesting, but I didn't find TST that great of a book either. My only interest in it was Loghain.

And despite everything, I do think Ferelden has the potential for brilliance. It needs a brilliant leader, among other things.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eamon is the most likely candidate. I doubt it's Teagan. Factions in Orlais could be at play as well.

The reason I say this, is because in some epilogues, teagan takes over Redcliffe,  while Eamon does whatever. regardless, trouble still stirs in redcliffe. Since Teagan is highly unlikely to care about such things, it would have to be someonething else. Teagan goes to fetch Alistair in DA2, but I can't see him by himself using Alistair to foment rebellion. That's more an Eamon thing.

But that hardly counts as civil war. It's relatively stable, for now, though of course the banns being what they are are always going to stir trouble.

Not civil war, no. But they are still retarded enough to carry on petty conflicts, and still seem to be in a position to do so.

But I ask. Replace Maric with anyone with an IQ higher than Cailan and give him the Therein name and Loghain's support. Wouldn't he fare just as well? Maybe even better, as the debacle at West hill could have been avoided.

In TST, I don't see Maric with that much skill. Loghain was pure skill, a bit in politics but much more in military. One thing Maric did that was skillfull was get the Legion of the dead to help (though I doubt Kardol would have wasted his time on him). How crucial that was is debatable.  I see Maric being crucial primarily for his name and his symbolic value. Other than that, not so much and I think Ferelden could have liberated itself just as well if not better if Maric was replaced by any Therein, except Cailan. 

Sure, you can, on merit, find a number or more suitable, willing candidates to replace him that might have done much better. But even though being a Therin wouldn't qualify as a skill, I think  he at least managed to use it enough to make it an asset.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That comment was not really directed at you, I know you don't find him brilliant

I disagree that brilliant leaders can't have an interesting story, but that's subjective tastes I suppose. I didn't find Maric that interesting, but I didn't find TST that great of a book either. My only interest in it was Loghain.

And despite everything, I do think Ferelden has the potential for brilliance. It needs a brilliant leader, among other things.

Oh, I agree, Ferelden has plenty of potential to go far, and produce intelligent, creative people. But at this point in it's history, they would need to produce something close to a messiah to get them to change and evolve into a functional society capable of capitalizing on and nurturing this brilliance. Otherwise, it's gonna take time to get to that point. Many of Ferelden's problems are too deeply entrenched and fundemental.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The reason I say this, is because in some epilogues, teagan takes over Redcliffe,  while Eamon does whatever. regardless, trouble still stirs in redcliffe. Since Teagan is highly unlikely to care about such things, it would have to be someonething else. Teagan goes to fetch Alistair in DA2, but I can't see him by himself using Alistair to foment rebellion. That's more an Eamon thing.

Eamon can fake retirement. Kind of like Putin pretending to be Prime minister
But I've also specualted that this trend vis a vis Redcliffe is natural and not necessarily planned or at least entirely so. The bannorn, in reaction to what happened in the civil war, could naturally seek in Redcliffe the leadership they need to be united. This doesn't need a good politician to pull off. But a master politician is required to take full advantage of it. In Ferelden,. that owuld be Eamon and not Teagan, even if he is supposedely retired.

Not civil war, no. But they are still retarded enough to carry on petty conflicts, and still seem to be in a position to do so.

Of course. They are banns. They have to be stupid.
Though it's convenient. Arcturus LOVED that some idiots wanted to challenge him in Amaranthine. Gave him the perfect opportunity to clean house and replace the traitors with loyalists. Imagine his ecstasy when the Bann of Amaranthine city, which is crucial to him, committed suicice

Sure, you can, on merit, find a number or more suitable, willing candidates to replace him that might have done much better. But even though being a Therin wouldn't qualify as a skill, I think  he at least managed to use it enough to make it an asset.

Well he wasn't a disgrace like say Cailan, who would have dragged the Therein name into the mud.
He wasn't horrible and yes, he was good enough to make his name useful. But I'd still say his primary contribution is his name, while with Loghain, it was skill.

Though I have to add that if everyone knew what really happened in West Hill, he and his name would have probably been disgraced. So not sure if it was skill or luck that avoided making him a disgrace. But I feel I bashed too much on him already