140 réponses à ce sujet

[OfTheFaintSmile]

Lightice_av wrote...

Not at all stupid. In fact, they're extremely believable and add a sense of urgency to your mission. You don't just twiddle your thumbs and do sidequests when a colony is being attacked; you jump right into action. I hate that kind of nonsense in RPGs - for example in Dragon Age the Blight just stops for your sake with no discernible reason. I'm glad that in Mass Effect urgent events require urgent actions.

Huh really? What about the town of Lothering getting wiped out by the blight with no warning. Can't even go back to get supplies from the store if you wanted to

[Pauravi]

A stupid complaint about something that, I think, immensely helps the pacing of the game and makes the things much more realistic.

You're given a scenario in which you have one opportunity to do something that may be critical to your mission, and you have to do it now, or else the opportunity is gone. And you think that you should be allowed to say, "hey I'll do it later, I gotta go mine some platinum so I can get these snazzy new guns"? That is incredibly immersion breaking, as the story simply doesn't make sense if you're allowed to do that. Not every RPG has to be completely open-ended. In fact, the fact that it isn't is one of the things that makes it, IMO, more compelling than games like Oblivion or FO3. I like those games for what they are, but I'll never love them as much as I love games like ME.

[Pauravi]

OfTheFaintSmile wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

Not at all stupid. In fact, they're extremely believable and add a sense of urgency to your mission. You don't just twiddle your thumbs and do sidequests when a colony is being attacked; you jump right into action. I hate that kind of nonsense in RPGs - for example in Dragon Age the Blight just stops for your sake with no discernible reason. I'm glad that in Mass Effect urgent events require urgent actions.

Huh really? What about the town of Lothering getting wiped out by the blight with no warning. Can't even go back to get supplies from the store if you wanted to

And that is pretty much the only example.
It is a little easier to explain away in DA -- they can simply say that the army is massing and gathering strength, but I do wonder why they only make the one little incursion no matter how long you take to do everything.  In ME's case there is no such thing to hide behind.  The colony is being attacked RIGHT NOW.  You have literally hours to jump to the system and do what you can before everyone is abducted.  And people want to go shopping in the Citadel and probe for ore instead?  Ridiculous.

[rt604]

I don't have problem from a plot stand point, but from a balance stand point on hardcore or insanity if you haven't prepared properly your pretty much done, or going to have a hard time, especially from a ng+ standpoint if your crew is all maxed already. Need some time to get some upgrades.

[boardnfool86]

Jake71887 wrote...

TIM: Shepard, we've just gotten info that the collectors are attacking a human colony...
Shepard: Oh yeah? Well, I've almost got enough resources to improve the normandy's guns, just let me grab that quick.
TIM: But...
Shepard: *Disconnect*

6 days later

Shepard: Ok, got em installed, time to save some colonists!
TIM: They're all gone you douchebag. 

haha - I am surprised this doesn't happen to feros if you save it for last in ME1

[Terraneaux]

Hellraisin wrote...

Blame illusive man, he is to puppet master than pulls your strings. I can't wait to kick his ass in ME3.

Lol like that'll happen.  He'll totally have some crucial piece of information so that you can't justify killing him.

[bbfan13]

I think the OP points out a minor problem currently in the gaming industry.  The RPG label has been thrown on a lot of games and the genre has simply gotten too large.  The leads to the type of statements like “xxxx has nothing to do with role playing."  When I play an FPS or RTS, I know exactly what I am getting.  Hop onto Gamespot and browse RPG and you have no clue what you are getting.

I am an OLD RPG player.  So old that my only electronic option at one point was Adventure on the Atari 2600.  I was a D&D guy and while I hate to admit it, when I started I thought RPG stood for ROLL Playing Game because all we would do was go from room to room and roll the dice the see if we beat the six skeletons and unlocked the chest.  In high school I realized it was role and not roll and game play style progressed.  In college where all we geeks were concentrated in science classes I got heavy into it for a couple years and staying in your role became more important than the actual dice play.

The gaming industry has evolved in a similar fashion and that isn't necessarily a good thing.  The first nightmare was Diablo.  It is the equivalent of my 12 year old vision of what an RPG was.  Go from room to room slash and loot.  The sole reward is getting a +4 weapon instead of your old +3 or a new ring that is +10 hit points.  This became what an RPG was for an entire generation of gamers.  Now we constantly see complaints about not enough different weapon types or cash and too much story in ME2.  

The next problem came with Oblivion and this idea of sand box play.  I can go anywhere and do anything I want whenever I want.  Opponents scale to your level so that there is always a challenge but it dramatically takes away the sense of accomplishment of finally getting strong enough to beat something.  Now you get a group of gamers who complain that their RPG's are too linear or like the OP having forced missions.

I pick those two games for a reason.  Not only their critical and commercial success, but they are also two of my favorite games of all time.  They are both brilliant but they are two very different types of games.  It is their success that is the problem in a world with a shrinking number of developers and high development costs hurting creativity.  Almost every legitimate negative user review I have seen about ME is that it doesn't follow one of those two formulas.  ME is a third type of game and in my opinion the purest role playing experience I have had on a computer.  I take on the role of Commander Shepard and as such I have certain restrictions that I must follow.  I certainly understand how others can be disappointed if they have a passion for the other types of games.

That is very long way of saying I would like to see the RPG category broken up by the gaming industry to help the consumer understand what they will be getting.  I have seen terms like action rpg and computer rpg used but there seems to be no consistency in their use. Don’t even get me started with MMOs being listed in the same category. I know from playing Hellgate London and a couple hours of Titan Quest that I have had enough of Diablo clones.

[DigitalBrute]

Well for the role-playing aspect I'd say it presents a virtue of realisim this attack was the only known warning they ever had (thanks to TIM) if you weren't automagically put in the level and waited then another colony would have been taken and we'd have nothing on the collectors.

[KumoriOokami]

I really liked the forced missions, really gave me a big sense of urgency about the dire situation that being able to pace myself just would not have given me. I don't think this would work for -every- game, but I thought it worked really well here.

[DuffyMJ]

Lightice_av wrote...

Only a idiot would try to rescue a colony if his ship isnt prepared to survive a fight against the one that destroyed the first normandy.

The ship doesn't have the element of surprise this time, as we can clearly see. And exactly what are your options, here? Let thousands die and maybe never get another chance?

yes. whatever it takes to get the job done.

[DuffyMJ]

mass effect 2 is really more of an adventure game than a role playing game. the motivation to do sidequests has little to do with getting tech/gear (since you can't even get the good stuff until you're a high level any way) and has everything to do with story (unlocking dialog, having carry-over into the next game, etc.)



Mass Effect is really just like those old Police Quest games or something with action scenes thrown in.

[Tleining]

Pauravi wrote...

OfTheFaintSmile wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

Not at all stupid. In fact, they're extremely believable and add a sense of urgency to your mission. You don't just twiddle your thumbs and do sidequests when a colony is being attacked; you jump right into action. I hate that kind of nonsense in RPGs - for example in Dragon Age the Blight just stops for your sake with no discernible reason. I'm glad that in Mass Effect urgent events require urgent actions.

Huh really? What about the town of Lothering getting wiped out by the blight with no warning. Can't even go back to get supplies from the store if you wanted to

And that is pretty much the only example.
It is a little easier to explain away in DA -- they can simply say that the army is massing and gathering strength, but I do wonder why they only make the one little incursion no matter how long you take to do everything.  In ME's case there is no such thing to hide behind.  The colony is being attacked RIGHT NOW.  You have literally hours to jump to the system and do what you can before everyone is abducted.  And people want to go shopping in the Citadel and probe for ore instead?  Ridiculous.

As far as DA:O goes: It has been a while since i last played it, but if i remember correctly, there is a sign of the horde. After Ostagar, the region around that is discolored (on the travel-map), and after each of the main missions, that area grows. After Lothering, the Area extends to that, so Lothering is lost. And when you finally reach the gathering in Denerim, you hear people talking about more areas that have been lost. Also: maybe you didn't notice, but every now and then you were attacked by darkspawn while traveling, those attacks happen more often, if you take too long.

In ME2 something similar is happening. Before you get to Horizon, one or two other colonies are destroyed. Another one afterwards. Just like in DA:O, this events are not shown, you just hear about them.

Just wanted to point that out 

[xSolclaim]

Terraneaux wrote...

Hellraisin wrote...

Blame illusive man, he is to puppet master than pulls your strings. I can't wait to kick his ass in ME3.

Lol like that'll happen.  He'll totally have some crucial piece of information so that you can't justify killing him.

My ren shep can justify killing ANYONE 

[Ulicus]

madisk wrote...

I for one welcome Bioware's urgency plot devices. Grinding your character for months before embarking on an urgent mission of utmost importance never makes sense in any of the open-ended RPG's I've played. It's great that Bioware added reprecussions for dicking around too long.

It's funny, because I liked that BioWare added a justification for dicking around for ages. The game revolves around building a strong squad and uber-high levels of preparation. Prior to the crew being kidnapped, you can actually justify flying about the galaxy doing side-quests and getting team cohesion down, etc. Hell, even AFTER the crew is kidnapped, you can justify doing that kind of thing, even though there are - and rightly so - consequences.

Not so in ME1, where you're given all the information you need to look into Saren straight from the off and know you're in a huge race against time.

[Conway044]

tonnactus wrote...

That has nothing to do with a roleplaying game.They throw the player in difficult missions,if they prepared for that or not.(Weapons,abilities)

Hopefully they remove that for Mass Effect 3.

1. I loved these and hope to see more.   Sure they can happen at an awkward times, but that's why they are believable.

2. In future don't reference RPG's, rather use CRPG's, or even better "Sandbox CRPG's".  If you do your statements won't be completely false.  Most RPG's revolve around forced encounters, where trying to duck the "important mission/quest/whatever leads to a blown campaign, or at least a pissed off GM.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lightice_av wrote...

Not at all stupid. In fact, they're extremely believable and add a sense of urgency to your mission. You don't just twiddle your thumbs and do sidequests when a colony is being attacked; you jump right into action. I hate that kind of nonsense in RPGs - for example in Dragon Age the Blight just stops for your sake with no discernible reason. I'm glad that in Mass Effect urgent events require urgent actions.

Exactly.  In Mass Effect 1, the main quest was even titled 'A Race Against Time', and yet, you're free to spend countless days and weeks(story-wise) flying around the galaxy looking for minerals and artifacts or even running people's errands. 

The 'forced' missions in ME2 finally apply that sense of urgency that was supposed to be there in the first game.  Heck, if you don't save the IFF till last, you're forced to skip all the remaining quests or suffer the consequences of joyriding around the galaxy when your crew's lives are on the line.  I thought this was a wonderful improvement over the last game's lack of urgency.

[RayneMoon]

I do have to agree somewhat.

During my first play through I was running around trying to collect as many upgrades and weapons as humanly possible preparing for the missions that you get thrown into...

[CmdrFenix83]

SuperVaderMan wrote...

I don't like that it gives absolutely no warning. After I talk to the Illusive man, AT LEAST let me walk around my ship to make some upgrades, talk to some people, or at least let me feed my damn fish. Have EDI give me a warning before I'm about to open the galaxy map that we're gonna head to Horizon/Collector ship once I do. THEN I'd be alright with it...

And for the IFF installation, let ME decide when to install it, don't railroad me into the shuttle 'cause I still might wanna do stuff with Legion

Kelly:  "The Illusive Man would like to see you in the briefing room, Commander."

Shepard:  "Alright, let me get my research and other business out of the way first."

You can do that, you know?  Just because Cerberus asks you to jump like a good boy, doesn't mean you have to go straight there.  Do what you need first, then talk to him.  If your complaint is that you don't have the resources needed to make all your upgrades after you've gotten Mordin, Garrus, Grunt, and Jack, then it's your own fault for not scanning those clusters.  With just those 3 star clusters, and only the Rich planets in them, I can get every resource needed for *every* upgrade in the game if you don't count that medbay upgrade.  No excuse to complain that you don't have time, you have *plenty* of time.

[Hennex]

I disagree. I liked the urgency. It made me rush in there and think on my feet, not spend countless hours to do all my side quests. It made the pacing of the game feel much better to me.



If I am correct, you have pretty much unlimited time to grab the IFF, unless I missed some side quests.

[SuperVaderMan]

I wouldn't have much of a problem with them if I could at least choose when to go the the galaxy map to start the mission, so that my first time through I don't go to the debriefing room thinking I'll still be able to at least feed my damn fish afterward I don't get slapped in the face with a railroad track Collector mission.

That and I wanted to do more stuff with Legion, but instead I get mein EDI dictating exactly when I have to start the suicide mission if I want to keep everyone alive.

[petetehcanuck]

tonnactus wrote...

That has nothing to do with a
roleplaying game.They throw the player in difficult missions,if they
prepared for that or not.(Weapons,abilities)

Hopefully they remove that for Mass Effect 3.

Obviously you hated Eden Prime, Noveria, Feros Virmire and IIos in ME as well eh? 



]

[tonnactus]

petetehcanuck wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

That has nothing to do with a
roleplaying game.They throw the player in difficult missions,if they
prepared for that or not.(Weapons,abilities)

Hopefully they remove that for Mass Effect 3.

Obviously you hated Eden Prime, Noveria, Feros Virmire and IIos in ME as well eh? 



]

??
Even Prime was the tutorial.After becoming a spectre,shepardt could do what he want.
Why even play roleplaying games when "urgency" is better then some freedom???

Modifié par tonnactus, 19 février 2010 - 02:32 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Pauravi wrote...

OfTheFaintSmile wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

Not at all stupid. In fact, they're extremely believable and add a sense of urgency to your mission. You don't just twiddle your thumbs and do sidequests when a colony is being attacked; you jump right into action. I hate that kind of nonsense in RPGs - for example in Dragon Age the Blight just stops for your sake with no discernible reason. I'm glad that in Mass Effect urgent events require urgent actions.

Huh really? What about the town of Lothering getting wiped out by the blight with no warning. Can't even go back to get supplies from the store if you wanted to

And that is pretty much the only example.
It is a little easier to explain away in DA -- they can simply say that the army is massing and gathering strength, but I do wonder why they only make the one little incursion no matter how long you take to do everything.  In ME's case there is no such thing to hide behind.  The colony is being attacked RIGHT NOW.  You have literally hours to jump to the system and do what you can before everyone is abducted.  And people want to go shopping in the Citadel and probe for ore instead?  Ridiculous.

Also you can do a whole lot of meandering before Lothering gets destroyed.

A whole lot

[Serevir]

Lord_Nikon wrote...

actually neither are forced, you don't HAVE to go and talk to TIM, you can and do missions between finding out that he wants to chat and actually chatting with him (though I haven't done a recruit mission between, because horizon pops up after you finish the starting missions, and I generally WANT the collector new shiny gun)

[/thread]

[JLocke37]

I think the problem here with a lot of people is that they believe all rpg's should be sandbox or "open" rpgs. In their minds, anything that constrains their level of "choice" in any possible way, automatically disqualifies it from being an rpg, and turns it into an action game. The same basic premise is used by players who demand complex inventory systems and complete customization.

The truth is, those are SELECT aspects of SELECT rpg's.  There is no universal standard for what an RPG is, or isn't, nor should there be.  They may enjoy those aspects more, and may wish they be implemented into every rpg game. In actuality though, they are not necessary in every rpg, nor wanted by large percentages of the player base.

Modifié par JLocke37, 19 février 2010 - 02:50 .