96 réponses à ce sujet

[Hepzi3]

Im going to play Devil's advocate here and say that I think we would have won ( But please let me explain before you jump on me.)



I think that the Humans would have had a lot of support from the Council. I think the Council would have seen the Turians as the aggressor (Because they were) and that would have made the Asari and Salarians more sympathetic. (Not all Military support. I expect we would only get resources, and maybe only from Asari or Salarian weapons companies, In secret.)



It would be long, hard fought battles, similar to what happened at Reach. Sure, The Covenant were supposed to win just by establishing orbital domination, But on the ground, the UNSC almost beat them. They were simply overwhelmed.



Sure, our Fleet's were a hell of a lot weaker. I wont argue that point. But we ha(ve or had?) amazing strategists such as Hackett and other bold minds on Earth. We could have won a few battles, to give us hope.( And sometimes this is all that is required. Look at the American Revolution) Alliance would have convinced world powers to speed up production of a large scale, multiple Dreadnought Fleet ( Cant remember if we had a Dreadnought during first contact war or not) We would have LIKELY won the war (If we did) because of heroic final stands, Where our soldiers held the line long enough for reinforcing Orbital Battle stations to reinforce and ensure that Turians did not gain control of key economic planets. (Remember, the might of the Alliance is not Earth. It is her vast number of colonies.) If the Turians did get economic strongholds, We would look to diplomacy right then and there.



Im not saying it would be a cakewalk. Casualties would likely be in the millions, maybe even billions. It really depends on how stubborn we would be to resist extinction. Diplomacy would be attempted, and of course it would probably work, But I think after a certain point (Say Humans take 10 thousand dead or Turians take 100 thousand dead) It wouldnt.



This would be one of the most bloody conflicts in galactic history, With millions dead just to defend economic facilities.



I think the Turians would likely surrender, But not outright. ( I dont mean, oh, they give up all their colonies and agree to pay reparations like Germany had to post WW1.) No, It would be a draw kind of surrender. "You fought amazingly well, and stubbornly, And we respect that. No more fighting is necessary."



We would be a hell of a lot weaker, and unable to resist the Reapers when they come some,40 years later.



Interesting topic.

[Yakko77]

DarkNova50 wrote...

If you look at past Human wars, and that horrifying tendency we have to create nightmarishly destructive weapons when our ass is on the line, I think that the Humans would have eventually developed their space age version of a nuke, and made the Turian's lives so unpleasant they'd either have to call a truce or bring in their Council allies.

And hope to God that the Humans didn't find the Krogan homeworld. After all, they've got as much reason as anybody to kill the Turians...and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

You mean like that mission in ME1 where you disarm the scout probe with a tactical nuke?

In modern terms that'd be like arming every Predator drone sent in the Af-Pak theater with a tactical nuke..... just in case.

[Doug84]

Yakko77 wrote...

DarkNova50 wrote...

If you look at past Human wars, and that horrifying tendency we have to create nightmarishly destructive weapons when our ass is on the line, I think that the Humans would have eventually developed their space age version of a nuke, and made the Turian's lives so unpleasant they'd either have to call a truce or bring in their Council allies.

And hope to God that the Humans didn't find the Krogan homeworld. After all, they've got as much reason as anybody to kill the Turians...and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

You mean like that mission in ME1 where you disarm the scout probe with a tactical nuke?

In modern terms that'd be like arming every Predator drone sent in the Af-Pak theater with a tactical nuke..... just in case.

Well, you never know when those damned villages will be hiding an entire army of Taliban...

[Lmaoboat]

Humans would have been roflstomped. Humans wouldn't have a large fleet, as they weren't aware there were even other aliens. Turians, on the other hand, make up the bulk of the council's military force, and have technological, numerical, and tactical advantages, not to mention way more experience with space warfare. Their military strategy is also sending in as much force as possibly and utterly decimating the enemy. You people are putting too much faith in humans. We're not space Mary-Sues.

[endante]

Humans would've lost, but everyone would've lost in the end, since Shepard wouldn't have been a specter in order to stop Sovereign.

[Burdokva]

I would imagine the remnants of humanity living in a hellhole that makes Tuchanka look comfortable to tell stories of the great war that we honorably (and pathetically quickly) lost. By the time of the original Mass Effect - 2183 - humanity had a dozen large colonies, 6 dreadnoughts and a respectable fleet. I can't say about ground forces, but it's obvious that the fewer and poorer equiped Batarian para-military units are a threat to the Alliance.



What options do we have twenty years earlier with just a few settled worlds, poultry fleet and probably a noticeable technological disadvantage to the Turian war machine, plus a horrible man-per-man ratio? They would have annihilated us, no matter how stubbornly we fought.



After all, the Turians did beat the Krogan. The genophage was a sort of "final solution", like the A-bombs over Japan, that sealed the victory. But it would have taken decades for it to have a noticabe effect, so it's obvious the Turians won a conventional war against a powerful species with a developed war ecenomy.



We're dead, plain and simple.

[Llandaryn]

Tokala42 wrote...

If the council hadn't stepped during the war between Humanity and the Turians, what would have happened? In my opinion, humanity would win a few early battles but would overall have lost the war. What does everyone think?

I think we would have backed off, and then 20 years later gone back to liberate them from their oppressive oil.

I mean, err, dictators.

[raist747]

I think it would not escalate into a total war.



Sooner or later someone high up in the Taurian Empire would point out "hey, those humans are a undiscovered species, how can they know about Citadel Law?". if they went ahead and wiped out humanity over a slight in honor, there's' no question from what we have seen the council act that such a black mark would have particularly nasty repercussions for them, maybe even costing them their Council seat.

[raist747]

double post, whee!

Modifié par raist747, 14 février 2010 - 07:30 .

[Yakko77]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Humans would have been roflstomped. Humans wouldn't have a large fleet, as they weren't aware there were even other aliens. Turians, on the other hand, make up the bulk of the council's military force, and have technological, numerical, and tactical advantages, not to mention way more experience with space warfare. Their military strategy is also sending in as much force as possibly and utterly decimating the enemy. You people are putting too much faith in humans. We're not space Mary-Sues.

It only has brief mention in the Codex but the humans are petty much the only space faring race to utilize aircraft carriers.  One look at the impact carriers had vs. battleships in WWII and the tactical edge humanity has is clear.  I hope this is somehow shown in some epic space battle in ME3.  Turian naval strategy is very Dec. 6, 1941 in human terms.  Taranto, Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, Midway, Guadalcanal, Philippine Sea all show the superiority of the carrier and most notably IMO the Battle off Samar where a small handful of frigates/destroyers and a few small escort carriers held off (at serious loss) a MUCH larger force of Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers.  Battleships/dreadnoughts and cruisers still ahve their place in ME naval tactics but being the only race with carriers and the Normandy which in theory could be dubbed the only submarine with its stealth systems and what humans lack in numbers is more than made up for in technical innovation and strategy.

[Doug84]

Burdokva wrote...

I would imagine the remnants of humanity living in a hellhole that makes Tuchanka look comfortable to tell stories of the great war that we honorably (and pathetically quickly) lost. By the time of the original Mass Effect - 2183 - humanity had a dozen large colonies, 6 dreadnoughts and a respectable fleet. I can't say about ground forces, but it's obvious that the fewer and poorer equiped Batarian para-military units are a threat to the Alliance.
 

The Batarians who've already lost their war against us? Though in ME 2, humanity's loses mean they are somewhat overstretched. Add to that, humanity's strategy means that outer colonies are left pretty much undefended until attacked, then a fleet warp in. There's a codex about it. Whilst it means a smaller force can police a larger area, it means a quick surgerical strike (or a terrorist attack) can get in and out of a colony before military forces arrive.

That said, the Turians would have ground us into a fine paste after a few small victories for humanity.

[Burdokva]

Not to start a debate, as I'm a nerd on all things space-battle, but you're assuming carriers are a sort of an ultimate weapon based on our own experience. Yet in Mass Effect, they well may turn out to be a useful tool for precision strikes or a cheaper alternative to a frigate fleet for pirate hunting.

Dreadnought kinetic barriers and armor are designed to withstand an incredible amount of punishment (in the tens of kilo-tons every second) and a wave of fighters/bombers carrying miniature mass accelerator weapons can overwhelm them? Also, keep in mind that a large ship, like a dreadnought or a cruiser would absolutely devastate a wave of fighters/bombers if supported by a few frigates. The Codex clearly states that GARDIAN defences will destroy the first wave of attackers and will inflict heavy casualties until a prolonged bombardment overwhelms the cooling system of the point-defence guns. Only after that can fighters/bombers freely assault the ship and we're back to point one - we don't know if they can cripple and destroy anything bigger than a frigate.

EDIT: Doug84, I'm not sure there was an actual war between humanity and the batarians, more like a proxy-war between human colonies and batarian supported pirate groups. And yes, batarians are far weaker, but what I meant was that even in its current state the Alliance can't go on full scale war against them and achieve a military victory, let alone 20 years ago against the power-house of the entire Galaxy... 

Modifié par Burdokva, 14 février 2010 - 07:42 .

[Conway044]

Burdokva wrote...

I would imagine the remnants of humanity living in a hellhole that makes Tuchanka look comfortable to tell stories of the great war that we honorably (and pathetically quickly) lost. By the time of the original Mass Effect - 2183 - humanity had a dozen large colonies, 6 dreadnoughts and a respectable fleet. I can't say about ground forces, but it's obvious that the fewer and poorer equiped Batarian para-military units are a threat to the Alliance.

What options do we have twenty years earlier with just a few settled worlds, poultry fleet and probably a noticeable technological disadvantage to the Turian war machine, plus a horrible man-per-man ratio? They would have annihilated us, no matter how stubbornly we fought.

After all, the Turians did beat the Krogan. The genophage was a sort of "final solution", like the A-bombs over Japan, that sealed the victory. But it would have taken decades for it to have a noticabe effect, so it's obvious the Turians won a conventional war against a powerful species with a developed war ecenomy.

We're dead, plain and simple.

The Salarians beat the Krogan.  The Turians just dropped the WMD on them.  Without the Genophage the Krogan would have destroyed the Turians along with the rest of the coucil.  Krogan mature more rapidly than humans, the genophage had a more immediate impact than your projection allows.  Also, remember that the Krogan rebellion had been going on for 3 centuries or so before the Turian's showed up. 

I can't give the Turian's credit for the victory.  Though, you have a good arguement for a Turian win over humanity otherwise.

[Lmaoboat]

Yakko77 wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

Humans would have been roflstomped. Humans wouldn't have a large fleet, as they weren't aware there were even other aliens. Turians, on the other hand, make up the bulk of the council's military force, and have technological, numerical, and tactical advantages, not to mention way more experience with space warfare. Their military strategy is also sending in as much force as possibly and utterly decimating the enemy. You people are putting too much faith in humans. We're not space Mary-Sues.

It only has brief mention in the Codex but the humans are petty much the only space faring race to utilize aircraft carriers.  One look at the impact carriers had vs. battleships in WWII and the tactical edge humanity has is clear.  I hope this is somehow shown in some epic space battle in ME3.  Turian naval strategy is very Dec. 6, 1941 in human terms.  Taranto, Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, Midway, Guadalcanal, Philippine Sea all show the superiority of the carrier and most notably IMO the Battle off Samar where a small handful of frigates/destroyers and a few small escort carriers held off (at serious loss) a MUCH larger force of Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers.  Battleships/dreadnoughts and cruisers still ahve their place in ME naval tactics but being the only race with carriers and the Normandy which in theory could be dubbed the only submarine with its stealth systems and what humans lack in numbers is more than made up for in technical innovation and strategy.

You do recall that the Normandy was a joint project between the Turians and Alliance? We would have had nothing like the Normandy back then. If you want to walk WW2, the Humans would be Japan, and the Turians would be the US.

[Doug84]

Burdokva wrote...

Not to start a debate, as I'm a nerd on all things space-battle, but you're assuming carriers are a sort of an ultimate weapon based on our own experience. Yet in Mass Effect, they well may turn out to be a useful tool for precision strikes or a cheaper alternative to a frigate fleet for pirate hunting.

Dreadnought kinetic barriers and armor are designed to withstand an incredible amount of punishment (in the tens of kilo-tons every second) and a wave of fighters/bombers carrying miniature mass accelerator weapons can overwhelm them? Also, keep in mind that a large ship, like a dreadnought or a cruiser would absolutely devastate a wave of fighters/bombers if supported by a few frigates. The Codex clearly states that GARDIAN defences will destroy the first wave of attackers and will inflict heavy casualties until a prolonged bombardment overwhelms the cooling system of the point-defence guns. Only after that can fighters/bombers freely assault the ship and we're back to point one - we don't know if they can cripple and destroy anything bigger than a frigate.

I believe I remember (not certain) the codex spoke around anti-kinetic barrier torperdos the fighters could deploy to try and get the barriers down, then they could go for the barrier emitters before they reset.

If so, it'd be a useful tool against Dreadnoughts, though you'd have to swarm it to overwhelm the GARDIAN defences, like you say. After all, the Dreadnoughts without their barriers would have to somehow take kTon impacts repeatly.

But that's just guess work I suppose. Either way, I think the Turians numbers would have beaten us even if we where tactically better.

[Vaenier]

NOVA Bomb http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/NOVA_Bomb

It turns alien fleets into smoldering slag.

[Yakko77]

Vaenier wrote...

NOVA Bomb http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/NOVA_Bomb
It turns alien fleets into smoldering slag.

I'll take two please!

I'll be totally responsible with them... I swear!

[ItsFreakinJesus]

DarkNova50 wrote...

If you look at past Human wars, and that horrifying tendency we have to create nightmarishly destructive weapons when our ass is on the line, I think that the Humans would have eventually developed their space age version of a nuke, and made the Turian's lives so unpleasant they'd either have to call a truce or bring in their Council allies.

And hope to God that the Humans didn't find the Krogan homeworld. After all, they've got as much reason as anybody to kill the Turians...and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Humanity was preparing to nuke the hell out of the Turians at the time anyway, so there wouldn't be a need for some new superweapon. 

Humans were the only ones with nukes, as nuclear weapons were outlawed by the Council.

[Jonezyy]

Maybe humanity would get lucky. If the reapers need us so bad. They would save us....then resume processing us :/



All other species would soon be dead anyway. If a human didn't turn a ventilation system on lol.

[Lmaoboat]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

DarkNova50 wrote...

If you look at past Human wars, and that horrifying tendency we have to create nightmarishly destructive weapons when our ass is on the line, I think that the Humans would have eventually developed their space age version of a nuke, and made the Turian's lives so unpleasant they'd either have to call a truce or bring in their Council allies.

And hope to God that the Humans didn't find the Krogan homeworld. After all, they've got as much reason as anybody to kill the Turians...and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Humanity was preparing to nuke the hell out of the Turians at the time anyway, so there wouldn't be a need for some new superweapon. 

Humans were the only ones with nukes, as nuclear weapons were outlawed by the Council.

Actually, it was just illegal to use nukes on Garden Planets.

[Katarian]

Doug84 wrote...

I believe I remember (not certain) the codex spoke around anti-kinetic barrier torperdos the fighters could deploy to try and get the barriers down, then they could go for the barrier emitters before they reset.

If so, it'd be a useful tool against Dreadnoughts, though you'd have to swarm it to overwhelm the GARDIAN defences, like you say. After all, the Dreadnoughts without their barriers would have to somehow take kTon impacts repeatly.

Assuming that Humans had those torpedos in that war. I don't think it is stated anywhere who invented those, but I'm going to assume it wasn't Humans. Not aimed specifically at you but saying carriers/fighters would swing the war based on how they changed WWII is a bit strange. We don't how space battles work and so how you can compare them to WWII I don't know.

[Katarian]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Humans were the only ones with nukes, as nuclear weapons were outlawed by the Council.

You don't need nukes when you steer asteroids onto collison courses with planets, or you can fire a 20kg bullet at 1.3% of light speed that hits as hard as a conventional nuke.

[Doug84]

Katarian wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

I believe I remember (not certain) the codex spoke around anti-kinetic barrier torperdos the fighters could deploy to try and get the barriers down, then they could go for the barrier emitters before they reset.

If so, it'd be a useful tool against Dreadnoughts, though you'd have to swarm it to overwhelm the GARDIAN defences, like you say. After all, the Dreadnoughts without their barriers would have to somehow take kTon impacts repeatly.

Assuming that Humans had those torpedos in that war. I don't think it is stated anywhere who invented those, but I'm going to assume it wasn't Humans. Not aimed specifically at you but saying carriers/fighters would swing the war based on how they changed WWII is a bit strange. We don't how space battles work and so how you can compare them to WWII I don't know.

True. If we didn't have them, then yeah, the fighters/bombers would probably only be so much flying wreckage in the making vs a Dreadnought

[lltoon]

The council would deny the existence of humans.



"Ah yes, the humans" *finger quote*



That's how the humans win.

[Doug84]

Double post error - see next page.

Modifié par Doug84, 14 février 2010 - 09:03 .