96 réponses à ce sujet

[NatOreN]

tmp7704 wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

To be fair, the Turians where being jerks "Look, their trying to activate a relay... OPEN FIRE!" "Erm, sir, do you want to try and talk to this new and unknown species first?" "No, obey my order!"

Considering the last time someone activated unknown relay the rachni poured out through it the "shoot first, ask questions later" approach could be rather justified.

I'll have to disagree with you on that. That'd be like justifying a shotgun round to a baby's head for not knowing that fire could destroy a house.

[tmp7704]

Saivar wrote...

I'll have to disagree with you on that. That'd be like justifying a shotgun round to a baby's head for not knowing that fire could destroy a house.

Well, if you want to use this analogy, let's put it in context -- it's not shotgun round to baby's head because it doesn't know it's dangerous to press the red "may blow up whole neighbourhood" button, but because it's about the only way to stop it from pressing that button before it actually gets pressed. Not punishment of individual but prevention of potential wide scale disaster.

Note this analogy is skewed because we generally have way less harmful ways of stopping the babies from doing stupid things. And babies genuinely don't know any better. While adults of reasonably smart species should be able to work out on their own there's risk in activating relays to who knows where. If they're still willing to risk it then well, it's a risk not every other species have to agree with considering the results can affect them as well.

[NatOreN]

tmp7704 wrote...

Saivar wrote...

I'll have to disagree with you on that. That'd be like justifying a shotgun round to a baby's head for not knowing that fire could destroy a house.

Well, if you want to use this analogy, let's put it in context -- it's not shotgun round to baby's head because it doesn't know it's dangerous to press the red "may blow up whole neighbourhood" button, but because it's about the only way to stop it from pressing that button before it actually gets pressed. Not punishment of individual but prevention of potential wide scale disaster.

Note this analogy is skewed because we generally have way less harmful ways of stopping the babies from doing stupid things. And babies genuinely don't know any better. While adults of reasonably smart species should be able to work out on their own there's risk in activating relays to who knows where. If they're still willing to risk it then well, it's a risk not every other species have to agree with considering the results can affect them as well.

Ok, maybe my analogy wasn't the most thought out, but ruthlessly attacking a species for not following rules they most likely did not know about is hardly justifiable. Intelligent or not, anyone can fail to consider possible risks from performing certain activities. Then there's the search for knowledge, I suppose. I think it's quite clear that we humans know that in order to gain something, sometimes you have to take risks.
Obviously it was impossible for humans to know about the incident with the rachni, so activating mass relays was a risk they were willing to take as they did not know about any dangers that might lie beyond. Very similar to what happened when the salarians opened the mass relay to the rachni, I'm sure.

I hope that explained my views clearly enough. I tend to lose track when debating, usually ending up going in circles or forgetting important points and such. :/

[DDM1355]

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Systems_Alliance

The Alliance military is respected by the Citadel races for its novel tactics and technology (and not least for the fact the First Contact War had more turian than human casualties). Their strength lies in fire support, flexibility, and speed. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant" as only 3% of humans volunteer for military service. They make up for low numbers with sophisticated technical support (VIs, drones, artillery, electronic warfare) and emphasis on mobility and individual initiative. Their military doctrine is not based on absorbing and dishing out heavy shocks like the turians and krogan. Rather, they bypass enemy strong points and launch deep into their rear, cutting supply lines and logistics, destroying headquarters and support units, leaving enemies to 'wither on the vine'.

Humanity is considered a sleeping giant by the rest of the galaxy, if the council hadn't stepped in and prevented an all out war then I'm sure that the individual nations on earth would've introduced conscription and started building warships as fast as they could. Humanity would probably lose in the end, but the turians would suffer huge losses to their fleets and ground forces in the process, the systems alliance would probably always be on the defensive as they had no idea where the turian colonies were or where the turian homeworld was. The turians would reach earth eventually and shatter the human fleets and troops but the turian and human economies would probably collapse after the war since they would have spent billions creating an industry that wouldn't be needed after the war was over.

Modifié par DDM1355, 15 février 2010 - 12:32 .

[Draconis6666]

MrVincent wrote...

"You Humans are all racist!"

*Turian Thanix Cannon to the Alliances face*

without humans the Turians wouldnt even have the Thanix cannon since no one would have killed sovereign

[The Capital Gaultier]

This is like historical what ifs (which I really dislike) except in a situation where we have even fewer details. No point in asking, "What if...?"

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 15 février 2010 - 12:41 .

[Remaix]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

This is like historical what ifs (which I really dislike) except in a situation where we have even fewer details. No point in asking, "What if...?"

There doesn't have to be a point. Speculation is fun

[luk3us]

Space is a big place, assuming humanity could maintain suitable information security it could take the Turians decades to find Earth. These are the same people who refuse to open relays remember.



That could buy humanity time to advance and crush the filthy Turians.

[aaniadyen]

luk3us wrote...

Space is a big place, assuming humanity could maintain suitable information security it could take the Turians decades to find Earth. These are the same people who refuse to open relays remember.

That could buy humanity time to advance and crush the filthy Turians.

I always did wonder how they managed to clean the areas between their metal plates and scales.

[Spell Singer]

The turians thought the rapid response force was the main human fleet. When the main human fleet showed up to kick them out, they started to get serious and mobilized thus triggering council interest. If the council had not stepped in humanity would be a turian client race. They had a much larger fleet, and at the end of the day that is what counts. Not to mention it was probably slightly more advanced. We didn't know where any of their planets were, we didn't have any defensive depth and there was no unified leadership in the Sol system. The Turian's were perfectly happy to use orbital saturation bombardment to kill small units of soldiers, they would have only not bombarded the earth because of citadel conventions.



Fighters in ME are death traps. They only work because eventually (one hopes) the enemies Guardian systems degrade to the point where someone can launch a strike. This requires the use of a large number of fighters who will suffer heavy casualties in a real fleet engagement. I suspect the fighters in ME are just a sop to the fact you have to have them even if they make no sense. Thank George Lucas for them basically. They are illogical when one considers that they are nothing more than expensive and slow missiles.



But the summary of the First Contact War if it had not been stopped would have been: We lost the first battle, we won the second battle and kicked their butts good, then their real fleet showed up and we were SOL. At this time humanity was only one world and few colonies (with negligible economic value) while the Turians had dozens of well developed colonies and allies, and had fought battles against the Krogan and the Rachni.



It is worth pointing out that Humanity calls it a "war", the Turian's call it an "incident." That says worlds right there.

[NatOreN]

Spell Singer wrote...
They had a much larger fleet, and at the end of the day that is what counts. Not to mention it was probably slightly more advanced.

A large fleet does not always equal strength. Neither does advanced technology always ensure victory. It has been pointed out that the turians are, or at least were, not big on strategies unlike humans, whose main strength lies in speed and well thought-out strikes.

We didn't know where any of their planets were, we didn't have any defensive depth and there was no unified leadership in the Sol system.

I recall no indication that the turians had any more information regarding our own colonies, let alone the location of Sol. And who's to say that a turian threat wouldn't unify the human race?

It is worth pointing out that Humanity calls it a "war", the Turian's call it an "incident." That says worlds right there.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything. It could just as well mark the turians as pompous jacka***s who just received a violent kick to their fragile pride.

Modifié par Saivar, 15 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[Ehlisuun]

To all those saying the Turians are the strongest military force please recall that this is only because of their role as galactic peacekeepers. Think back to the old British Empire. They had a massive massive navy and enough power projection capability that if they had been able to focus it all on the thirteen colonies there would have been no war. The problem is that while the Turians have a powerful fleet, it has responsibilities all over the galaxy and they would only be able to use a slice of it against humanity. Honestly, the impression I get is that we handled them rather easily. They captured Shanxi because of surprise, and lost it because we had a local superiority of force.

[Ehlisuun]

To the war vs incident issue, the British still call the American Revolutionary War a rebellion. I think it was a little more than that. The British were utterly defeated in North America and were in danger in Europe thanks to the French. There are no such things as two continent rebellions. The point here is that nations love to downplay their defeats and exaggerate their victories. 50,000 men died in Vietnam, yet it is a police action. A small number by comparison (5,000) have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, yet those are wars.

[Hailcloud]

Hey folks, I just want to say that I know that this is a serious discussion, and this scenario really isn't in the cards for this specific situation BUT...



if the Humans had Shephard, we would totally win =)



Galactic Dominance.

[Katarian]

Ehlisuun wrote...

To all those saying the Turians are the strongest military force please recall that this is only because of their role as galactic peacekeepers. Think back to the old British Empire. They had a massive massive navy and enough power projection capability that if they had been able to focus it all on the thirteen colonies there would have been no war.

That isn't quite the same. The British could keep control of coastal areas due their navy, but they lacked power projection over inland areas. The Turians wouldn't have that problem, they could bombard any where they like, and they haven't got a French problem going on at the same time the rest of the Galaxy seems to have been fairly peaceful during the war. The American Revolution war would of probably gone much differently if the British fleets could of just move up and bombed the crap out of any resistance anywhere in the Thirteen Colonies.

The biggest advantage the Alliance had was the Turian were bound by Council laws and they weren't. Of course IMO that isn't a massive advantage as if you start using nukes or other means to devastate Garden planets then the Council is going to want to stop you. Now that might mean an enforced peace, or it could mean crushing you like a bug using the most efficient means a la the Rachni/Krogans.

Modifié par Katarian, 15 février 2010 - 04:32 .

[Lmaoboat]

No amount of "human ingenuity" or 'unusual tactics" is going to stop a larger, more advanced, and more experienced army from wiping the floor with you and planting Turian flags all over your home planet. The Humans are Japan, and the Turians are the US. We may get a few surprise victories, but we sure as hell aren't going to win against such an industrial and military behemoth.

[Chris2112534566]

Aisynia wrote...

Humanity would have done what it always does: pulled something out of its ass and won, or at least.. make sure the turians lost too.

Exactly. the thing about Humanity is, we never stop. when we set our minds on a goal ,we go for it full force. if we discover we connot obtain said goal we make sure noone else can.
as far as military might goes, the Turians have us. we would more then likely lose most Space battles due to numbers not strategy. on the ground our forces would decimate, i mean its what we do. we have nearly perfected the art of ground warfare as it is today. though i would think that after several losses planet side the Turians would just stop landing troops and start Orbital Bombbardment until we either gave up (which lets face it probably wouldn't happen) or were destroyed.

[Lmaoboat]

The only thing Humanity would have pulled out of their ass is whatever the Turians rammed up it while they were picking out paint colors to redecorate our former seats of world power.

[tmp7704]

Chris2112534566 wrote...

Exactly. the thing about Humanity is, we never stop. when we set our minds on a goal ,we go for it full force.

Except this is obviously romantic exaggeration otherwise no war on Earth would ever end with one side eventually admitting defeat

It should be also kept in mind the Turians are also widely recognized for their persistence and determination, to the point of that saying how the only way you're going to see Turian soldier's back is when they're dead. They're roughly modeled after the Roman Empire which should give vague idea what to expect in terms of discipline.

[Invalidcode]

Human might win a few battles but no chance at the war during first contact. Once Turians call forth the dreadnoughts it should force the Alliance to forfeit. At that time Alliance don't really have a answer for dreadnoughts yet.



Dreadnought fire it's main gun once every few seconds, each one have the power of 3 A. bombs.



BTW Turian will wipe out another race's military power but they don't genocide afaik.