94 réponses à ce sujet

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Fuhjem24 wrote...

scrappydoo555 wrote...

ok I know I'm probably going to sound stupid but I didn't get the "Why's the ship turning around? We're only halfway there!" reference.

could someone explain it please,

In space travel, moving in a zero-gravity vacuum, you can only stop moving until acted upon by a force. Getting halfway to a destination in space would require a foreward force. Being able to stop, however, would require backwards thrust. So, when the ship reaches the halfway-point, they turn the ship around 180 degrees and give a gentle thrust in order to slow it down to an eventual stop upon arrival.

This too, though I think this mainly applies to short distance travel like a shuttle to the main ship.

[Doug84]

Krid wrote...

Most of the time you don't have to bother, since mass effect fields and other magic wand tech isn't meant to be based on science anyway.

However, when you start making claims that apply in real life it's time to call in somebody for verification.

Good example: "Why's the ship turning around? We're only halfway there!"
I was happy to hear this line, since it's an oft-overlooked detail in SciFi.

Bad example: "Humans most genetically diverse."
I facepalmed at this line because it's horribly unlikely.
Why? Because humans are one of the least genetically diverse creatures on our own planet, trailing behind species which are now or have recently been near-extinct or severly endangered.
The reasons for this are pretty simple.
First, the lineage of every human alive goes back to a common ancestor (See: "Y-chromosomal Adam" and "Mitochondrial Eve") no more than 90,000 years ago.
Second, our ancestors have suffered some near-extinction events which drastically reduced variation.

Thic can be confirmed by looking at the full range of genetic variation in humans and comparing it to that of other species.
The chances that such a species would be the most diverse intelligent lifeform out the of several dozen we've seen in Mass Effect so far is unlikely to the point of absurdity.

Oh, and on a related note, genetic diversity is a very undesirable trait for either a test group or a control group to have, as it increases the margin of error significantly. That's why white lab mice were bred to be homogenous.

I had to groan alittle at the genetics thing too. Unless all the other species have interbreed with themselves enough via global and interstellar mass transit to render genetic diversity extremely low. But that seems unlikely.

I didn't get the "Ship turning around" think though... decceleration? Though that doesn't work for FTL as they just switch off the Element Zero core when they wanna deccelerate.

Kerberus88 wrote...

When did it say that humans were the
most genetically diverse species? I remember hear most diverse, we
couldn't even figure out our religion, but not genetically
diverse.

Mordin said it at least twice, I think.

[Fuhjem24]

newcomplex wrote...

Colonization of worlds would lead to increased genetic diversity, considering most nebulas are still several days cruise away from the nearest relays, and most colonists tend to live on the colony their entire life.    

Where does it say that colonists live on their colony their entire life? Children would never want to stay planted on their homeworld forever. When they came of age, being rebellious as we humans get, most would leave and explore the stars.

[Abirn]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

scrappydoo555 wrote...

ok I know I'm probably going to sound stupid but I didn't get the "Why's the ship turning around? We're only halfway there!" reference.

could someone explain it please,

I'm assuming it's something to do with the fact that in order to slow down in space you need to turn your ship around so your thrusters can counteract your ship's momentum. Seems a bit arcane, though.

In other words.  "Sir Issac Newton is the deadlies son of a **** in space"

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Fuhjem24 wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Colonization of worlds would lead to increased genetic diversity, considering most nebulas are still several days cruise away from the nearest relays, and most colonists tend to live on the colony their entire life.    

Where does it say that colonists live on their colony their entire life? Children would never want to stay planted on their homeworld forever. When they came of age, being rebellious as we humans get, most would leave and explore the stars.

Even so, when it comes to isolated places (even now here on Earth) the genetic diversity is much lower than compared to high volume areas like major cities.

[Krid]

cronshaw8 wrote...

The likeliness of it is irrelevant. This is fiction. In the Mass Effect universe humans are more genetically diverse than other sapient species. This is like arguing that a character in a book getting struck by lightening is "highly unlikely." It is unlikely but in the book it happens.

Salarians have less than a third the lifespan of humans, and have been a spacefaring species for far longer. All other things being equal they would have had a much greater likelyhood of increased genetic diversity. That's assuming that they had the same kind of knock-back as humans, which isn't very likely.

Asari have direct randomization of their genome, which would result in wide variations in few generations when coupled with their inability to mix genes. While that's not evolution, it IS significant genetic variation.

Um, are you a scientist? Where are you bringing up this Y-chromosome meets Mitochondria BS from?

It's pretty obvious they never met, since they lived tens of thousands of years apart.

If
you're talking about Eukaryotas in general, that would make sense but
Y-chromosomes have nothing to do with that.

The term is
Most Recent Common Ancestor. Every human on earth is descended from
both of those people, which makes it a useful point of refference. Most
importantly, it means that there have been between 3000 and 4500
generations since our common ancestor, providing an upper boundary for
mutations and dispersal.

[Fuhjem24]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Even so, when it comes to isolated places (even now here on Earth) the genetic diversity is much lower than compared to high volume areas like major cities.

When you include the removal of racism...
(As a side note: I know people will bring up "Just because they aren't racist, doesn't mean they will all start falling in love with other ethnicities!". I realize this. But most people won't pursue their interests because of racist peer pressure. Without racism, people would be 100% more willing to date other ethnicities, because they are simply human.)
... over time the people in a large city would eventually begin to blend more genetically.

[Hathur]

Mordin repeatedly refers to humans being the most genetically diverse species in known space... he later qualifies this (during his loyalty mission) as SAPIEN life... intelligent life.



Since Mass Effect is fiction, we can simply assume that all the other aliens are less genetically diverse than humans.... Humans are among the least genetically diverse organisms on our own planet in reality, but who's to say that if there were other intelligent life out there, that we wouldn't be more genetically diverse than all of them?



It's fiction, the writers are allowed to say humans are more diverse than other intelligent aliens (though they'd be incorrect to state more diverse than ALL life... as this is not true on our own planet).

[Paradox 01]

Krid wrote...

Otherwise, they'd evolve within their own lifespans, or at least noticeably within a generation or two.

Evolution doesn't work that way...

Okay, granted.  Humans might evolve faster (or slower) than other species (be they asari or dolphin).  Still, my point was that humans evolve faster than other species (objectively, that is).

Now look at humans. We've evolved drastically within the last two thousand years, and that's discounting the whole creationist/evolutionist debate. We've evolved in order to adapt to the various regions of earth we live on.

Yes, there's been a lot of evolution, but the changes have generally been minor or superficial. There hasn't really been much selective pressure outside of diseases, sun exposure, and an iceage or two.

You don't think that's been quite a lot?  All evolution takes place slowly, so for even a few changes to have occured over the course of a thousand years is significant.  Who knows how much evolution humankind has gone through compared to other sentient species in the ME universe?

Also, I disagree the usage of the word "debate". "Debate" requires logical arguments backed by evidence, and one side seems incapable of using reason.

Hmm, not sure which side you're taking on this, and I don't want to start a religious debate here anyway.  Not gonna touch this one.

How many colors do we have on Earth?

Different shades of coffee, ranging from black to pure milk. Believe it or not the pink is actually constant between groups, as it's the result of near-surface blood.

Exactly (though I'm not sure what your point was with the pink reference).  We've evolved in order to adapt to the various climates on our planet.  Other species (krogan, asari, turian, etc.) haven't been able to do that to the extent that we have, at least as far as the given evidence leads us to believe.

[scrappydoo555]

Fuhjem24 wrote...

scrappydoo555 wrote...

ok I know I'm probably going to sound stupid but I didn't get the "Why's the ship turning around? We're only halfway there!" reference.

could someone explain it please,

In space travel, moving in a zero-gravity vacuum, you can only stop moving until acted upon by a force. Getting halfway to a destination in space would require a foreward force. Being able to stop, however, would require backwards thrust. So, when the ship reaches the halfway-point, they turn the ship around 180 degrees and give a gentle thrust in order to slow it down to an eventual stop upon arrival.

Thankyou that does make sense now.

[Doug84]

Hathur wrote...

Mordin repeatedly refers to humans being the most genetically diverse species in known space... he later qualifies this (during his loyalty mission) as SAPIEN life... intelligent life.

Since Mass Effect is fiction, we can simply assume that all the other aliens are less genetically diverse than humans.... Humans are among the least genetically diverse organisms on our own planet in reality, but who's to say that if there were other intelligent life out there, that we wouldn't be more genetically diverse than all of them?

It's fiction, the writers are allowed to say humans are more diverse than other intelligent aliens (though they'd be incorrect to state more diverse than ALL life... as this is not true on our own planet).

True. And ultimately, the thing about sci-fi is no-one knows for certain what the rest of the galaxy/universe is like. Even NASA's work is currently "Best guessing" based on what we know about Earth life. Don't get me wrong, NASA is probably right on 95% of their guesses, but ultimately, its hypothesis', not theories with a body of proof.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Krid wrote...
Most Recent Common Ancestor. Every human on earth is descended from
both of those people

Both of what people?

This is sounding less and less like science, which is ironic given your title. Humans did not descend from some "common ancestor" in which one donated Y-chromosomes and the other provided mitochondria.. 

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 15 février 2010 - 12:35 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Krid wrote...
Most Recent Common Ancestor. Every human on earth is descended from
both of those people

Both of what people?

This is sounding less and less like science, which is ironic given your title. Humans did not descend from some "common ancestor" in which one donated Y-chromosomes and the other provided mitochondria.. 

Y-chromosomal Adam, and Mitochondrial Eve. They are the ancestors from which every currently living human descends. Before you ask, they didn't live at the same time; I think that Eve lived over 50,000 years earlier than Adam.

EDIT: Think about it. It's obvious that if you go far enough back there will be a common ancestor for every extant human. There were other genetic lineages but they died off, and only one remains. At the time of the woman who is the current Mitochondrial Eve, a different woman would have been Mitochondrial Eve.

Modifié par Gill Kaiser, 15 février 2010 - 12:39 .

[Doug84]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Krid wrote...
Most Recent Common Ancestor. Every human on earth is descended from
both of those people

Both of what people?

This is sounding less and less like science, which is ironic given your title. Humans did not descend from some "common ancestor" in which one donated Y-chromosomes and the other provided mitochondria.. 

http://en.wikipedia....tochondrial_Eve

http://en.wikipedia....hromosomal_Adam

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Krid wrote...
Most Recent Common Ancestor. Every human on earth is descended from
both of those people

Both of what people?

This is sounding less and less like science, which is ironic given your title. Humans did not descend from some "common ancestor" in which one donated Y-chromosomes and the other provided mitochondria.. 

Y-chromosomal Adam, and Mitochondrial Eve. They are the ancestors from which every currently living human descends. Before you ask, they didn't live at the same time; I think that Eve lived over 50,000 years earlier than Adam.

...

As I said before, this would make some sense if we were talking about the appearance of eukaryotes, when at some point a microrganism absorbed another and that other microorganism survived and co-developed within its host to provide ATP.

This would apply to a lot of species, not humans alone. I have no idea where you guys have come up with this "Y-chromosome adam met Mitochondrial Eve". 

Edit; Okay did a wikipedia search on both subjects, now I understand what you guys are talking about a bit more. I thought you two were speaking about some new creationist theory.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 15 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[Doug84]

Edit: Nevermind, he saw the links - scroll up to my previous post if you wanna know what I mean.

Modifié par Doug84, 15 février 2010 - 12:45 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Krid wrote...
Most Recent Common Ancestor. Every human on earth is descended from
both of those people

Both of what people?

This is sounding less and less like science, which is ironic given your title. Humans did not descend from some "common ancestor" in which one donated Y-chromosomes and the other provided mitochondria.. 

Y-chromosomal Adam, and Mitochondrial Eve. They are the ancestors from which every currently living human descends. Before you ask, they didn't live at the same time; I think that Eve lived over 50,000 years earlier than Adam.

...

As I said before, this would make some sense if we were talking about the appearance of eukaryotes, when at some point a microrganism absorbed another and that other microorganism survived and co-developed within its host to provide ATP.

This would apply to a lot of species, not humans alone. I have no idea where you guys have come up with this "Y-chromosome adam met Mitochondrial Eve". 

The only reason she's called Mitochondrial Eve is because mitochondrial DNA is inhereted only from the mother, so it can be used to track back to the earliest ancestor everyone shares. The same for Y-chromosomes - obviously, it's only passed down from the father. This is harder to check because you can only test males for it, so the sample size is half as large.

It's not like we're saying that Mitochondrial Eve was the first woman who had mitochondria or some nonsense. Please, do some research.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Doug84 wrote...

Edit: Nevermind, he saw the links - scroll up to my previous post if you wanna know what I mean.

I never saw your posts... when I thought it was some creationists BS I decided to Google Search the terms and see whatever article originated the term.

[Doug84]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Edit; Okay did a wikipedia search on both subjects, now I understand what you guys are talking about a bit more. I thought you two were speaking about some new creationist theory.

No worries.  It was only discovered a few years ago. Apparently the human population dipped below 10,000 people at one point and we were nearly made extinct as a species, hence how 'Eve' came about. Something similar probably happened for 'Adam'.

That said, genetics are abit beyond my field of study

[Paradox 01]

Computron2000 wrote...

Paradox 01 wrote...Now look at humans. We've evolved drastically within the last two thousand years, and that's discounting the whole creationist/evolutionist debate. We've evolved in order to adapt to the various regions of earth we live on.

What evolution occured in the last 2000 years. I have heard nothing referencing this. We are basically the same as we were the last 1.8 million years ago (which were our last known ancestors the ****** erectus). We do have better nuitrition which allows us to fufill our actual height and mass potential. We also live longer because of better medicine but none of these are due to evolution

Are you kidding me?  Evolution is taking place all the time, in every generation. 

Adaptation is an accepted aspect of evolution.  What will make me sick in a foreign country will have absolutely no effect on the indigineous population.  They have adapted to the bacteria (for example) in the local wildlife.  So they can eat their pigs all they want, but if I decide to have a pork BBQ in Bosnia, I'll be puking for a month.

Also, look at how we're able to adapt to disease.  There are diseases that were rampant centuries ago that just don't exist today.  And yes, much of that is due to medicine, but our bodies are able to adapt to the medicine and take over from there.

Or, just the opposite.  Look at antibiotics.  There's a reason why your doctor doesn't prescribe broad-spectrum antibiotics for every little sniffle.  People on long-term ABX quit producing their own antibodies, because their bodies get used to recieving them from external sources.

Besides all this, of course, is the fact that no one really knows how quickly or slowly other species in the ME universe evolve.  So we might very well be the most genetically diverse of all the sentient species.


Oh, and compare how many species humans can mate with versus how many other species can mate with others in the ME universe.  Kinda sick, I know, and it's most likely a result of some fanboy's wildest fantasies, but it bears keeping in mind.

[Doug84]

Paradox 01 wrote...

Are you kidding me?  Evolution is taking place all the time, in every generation. 

Adaptation is an accepted aspect of evolution.  What will make me sick in a foreign country will have absolutely no effect on the indigineous population.  They have adapted to the bacteria (for example) in the local wildlife.  So they can eat their pigs all they want, but if I decide to have a pork BBQ in Bosnia, I'll be puking for a month.

And apparently our fingers are shinking in length over the generations. No clue why, not wholy certain if its true.

[ohenn]

The flipping around halfway there is in the ME1 codex. I thought it was a good point and showed some thought.



The genetic variation thing has to be taken with a grain of salt since the writers can make up whatever details they want. Basically, it gets them out of having to design different "races" of aliens. Humans are white, black, asian, etc but we only see blue asari, and the turians, krogan, salarians etc all look the same. Its almost like they used Mordin's lines to retcon in that fact

[Knoll Argonar]

I think it's just about how much species let nature be selective and then spread diversity over the galaxy.



Remember that is probably that in more than 2000 years genetical illness and issues are just eradicated with biotech. That HAS to affect diversity in some way. It just kills natural selection, and allows medical procedures to act against any genetical problem someone may have. Humans didn't had that much time to do so, and a lot of Earth countries still live like we do in XXI century, so it makes sense they say so.



Anyway, what the hell is that Adam and Eve thing anyway?

[Paradox 01]

Doug84 wrote...

Paradox 01 wrote...

Are you kidding me?  Evolution is taking place all the time, in every generation. 

Adaptation is an accepted aspect of evolution.  What will make me sick in a foreign country will have absolutely no effect on the indigineous population.  They have adapted to the bacteria (for example) in the local wildlife.  So they can eat their pigs all they want, but if I decide to have a pork BBQ in Bosnia, I'll be puking for a month.

And apparently our fingers are shinking in length over the generations. No clue why, not wholy certain if its true.

I blame Guitar Hero. 

[Anacronian Stryx]

Doug84 wrote...

Paradox 01 wrote...

Are you kidding me?  Evolution is taking place all the time, in every generation. 

Adaptation is an accepted aspect of evolution.  What will make me sick in a foreign country will have absolutely no effect on the indigineous population.  They have adapted to the bacteria (for example) in the local wildlife.  So they can eat their pigs all they want, but if I decide to have a pork BBQ in Bosnia, I'll be puking for a month.

And apparently our fingers are shinking in length over the generations. No clue why, not wholy certain if its true.

And the world population is rapidly getting taller a half centimeter the last 200 years alone, which is remarkable.