34 réponses à ce sujet

[thisisme8]

I decided to make this thread because it seems like the Cryo is the "useless" topic of the week.

The first one is my Vanguard running through the first part of the last mission using Squad Cryo Ammo in conjunction with Incendiary Ammo.  The combination works great, and I count about 7 or 8 enemies frozen without any effort from me.

ME2 - Collectors vs. Cryo vs. Vanguard

The second is from one of my forum heroes, Average Gatsby, using Cryo Blast on his low level engineer during Mordin's Recruitment mission.  Works very well at controlling enemies that regen quickly, but have too much health to kill with just Incinerate.  Also great at controlling multiple grouped enemies.  About a minute in is where Cryo action starts.

Mass Effect 2 - Engineer Insanity Montage 1

Note that on both Characters there are no bonus powers or specialy weapons being used.

[Pooh-bah]

Mm makes me want to play a Vanguard.

[Wintermaulz]

cool , btw, where do u get that visor, all iv found is the death mask, and the +10% head shot dmg.

[bbslayer_07]

I do agree cryo can be useful under the right circumstances, but cryo ammo by itself isn't that useful as it does no bonus damage to armor, shields, barriers, or health. It is however good at taking enemies out of the fight momentarily, but by the time their defenses are down and the cryo can freeze them it'd be better to just kill them instead of freezing them.



And in your video your squadmates are using warp on the collectors and then freezing them, as I've said I still think that the other ammo types are better due to the fact they do bonus damage against defenses. While cryo requires you to take down your enemy defenses before it can be useful.

[Dopetastic2727]

This is making me want to listen to Coheed and play at the same time =P

[thisisme8]

Wintermaulz wrote...

cool , btw, where do u get that visor, all iv found is the death mask, and the +10% head shot dmg.

Dr. Pepper promo DLC.  +5%Shields

[thisisme8]

bbslayer_07 wrote...

I do agree cryo can be useful under the right circumstances, but cryo ammo by itself isn't that useful as it does no bonus damage to armor, shields, barriers, or health. It is however good at taking enemies out of the fight momentarily, but by the time their defenses are down and the cryo can freeze them it'd be better to just kill them instead of freezing them.

And in your video your squadmates are using warp on the collectors and then freezing them, as I've said I still think that the other ammo types are better due to the fact they do bonus damage against defenses. While cryo requires you to take down your enemy defenses before it can be useful.

First, yes, they use Warp/Reave to remove barrier.  But, and let's be honest, even on insanity it isn't hard to strip any regular enemy's defenses.

Plus, 1 second is a long time on that difficulty level.  Notice on both vids that had those enemies not been frozen, they would have been shooting at Shepard.

In the Vanguard vid, the frozen enemies were either right next to Shepard and could have been lethal, or far away and used well as a Charge target.  In the Engineer vid, notice where the Krogan is flanking and had it not been frozen would have been right on top of poor Shepard with a shotgun and regenerating health.  Incinerate might have stopped the health regen, but not the Krogan.  Again, 1 second could have made the difference.

Edit:  Oh, and as the loading screen tip says:  Frozen enemies take more damage.

Modifié par thisisme8, 15 février 2010 - 01:52 .

[Atmosfear3]

The only enemies worth using Cryo anything on are husks. Do you really want to spec cryo ammo/blast just for them? Theres what, like 5 encounters where you fight husks and only 3 of those could be considered major?

[bbslayer_07]

thisisme8 wrote...

bbslayer_07 wrote...

I do agree cryo can be useful under the right circumstances, but cryo ammo by itself isn't that useful as it does no bonus damage to armor, shields, barriers, or health. It is however good at taking enemies out of the fight momentarily, but by the time their defenses are down and the cryo can freeze them it'd be better to just kill them instead of freezing them.

And in your video your squadmates are using warp on the collectors and then freezing them, as I've said I still think that the other ammo types are better due to the fact they do bonus damage against defenses. While cryo requires you to take down your enemy defenses before it can be useful.

First, yes, they use Warp/Reave to remove barrier.  But, and let's be honest, even on insanity it isn't hard to strip any regular enemy's defenses.

Plus, 1 second is a long time on that difficulty level.  Notice on both vids that had those enemies not been frozen, they would have been shooting at Shepard.

In the Vanguard vid, the frozen enemies were either right next to Shepard and could have been lethal, or far away and used well as a Charge target.  In the Engineer vid, notice where the Krogan is flanking and had it not been frozen would have been right on top of poor Shepard with a shotgun and regenerating health.  Incinerate might have stopped the health regen, but not the Krogan.  Again, 1 second could have made the difference.

Edit:  Oh, and as the loading screen tip says:  Frozen enemies take more damage.

Everything you said is true, it just depends on your class, a vangaurd typically needs to get up close, so cryo would be useful in stopping enemies like krogan, but for soldiers or infiltrators who kill at a distance other ammo types would be a better choice. But the main reason I'm saying this is because I typically snipe my opponents in 1-4 shots (I use the viper), so by the time they become frozen they'd be dead already.

[Average Gatsby]

Consider this with Cryo Blast/Ammo: Its kind of like what Disruptor ammo is to synthetics, except on organics. Even though it doesn't provide a damage bonus itself, as soon as the enemy starts to be frozen, each successive shot adds additional damage. We don't know how much this damage is, but it could be 50% or greater (I personally believe it is 100%). So you are creating an opportunity, with Cryo, to get a damage bonus while also doing a crowd control.

[Mr.Skar]

I think I'll experiment with a Cryo build for my next Vanguard run. Good job guys, ya got me to rethink my position. Doesn't always happen on the Internet.

Modifié par Mr.Skar, 15 février 2010 - 02:27 .

[Paeyvn]

Not going to lie, the engineer video was quite interesting. Decent use of cryo. Almost makes me want to try an engi out, it's like the only class I haven't played.

[mundus66]

I find it good vs barrier enemies if you don't have warp ammo as extra power. Vs synthetics and armored enemies disruptor and incendiary are better. Cryo ammo has saved my lives a couple of times though and i usually use it when i go up against collectors. But everything else i don't bother and imo there are some extra talents you can get instead like reave, double warp + reave is nasty.

[tangofish]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Consider this with Cryo Blast/Ammo: Its kind of like what Disruptor ammo is to synthetics, except on organics. Even though it doesn't provide a damage bonus itself, as soon as the enemy starts to be frozen, each successive shot adds additional damage. We don't know how much this damage is, but it could be 50% or greater (I personally believe it is 100%). So you are creating an opportunity, with Cryo, to get a damage bonus while also doing a crowd control.

I've been trying without much success to figure out how much of a damage bonus cryo imparts. I'm not one who can rummage through data files and understand half of what I'm seeing, so I've been attempting to test it in the game with my insanegineer. Obviously solid data is hard to give, but from the feel of it so far I'd say that the health of frozen targets drops at a little less than twice the speed it would normally.

Also, judging by the far more dramatic increase that some biotics and concussive shot have I think there may be a much greater bonus to force impact than just direct damage. All this is purely supposition on my part though.

[thisisme8]

bbslayer_07 wrote...

Everything you said is true, it just depends on your class, a vangaurd typically needs to get up close, so cryo would be useful in stopping enemies like krogan, but for soldiers or infiltrators who kill at a distance other ammo types would be a better choice. But the main reason I'm saying this is because I typically snipe my opponents in 1-4 shots (I use the viper), so by the time they become frozen they'd be dead already.

I understand your position, but think about this:  the Devs put Cryo Ammo on the Infiltrator for a reason.  I don't know how it can be used best since I don't really play one, but I'm inclined to find out.

mundus66 wrote...

I find it good vs barrier enemies if
you don't have warp ammo as extra power. Vs synthetics and armored
enemies disruptor and incendiary are better. Cryo ammo has saved my
lives a couple of times though and i usually use it when i go up
against collectors. But everything else i don't bother and imo there
are some extra talents you can get instead like reave, double warp +
reave is nasty.

That's true, Reave is a beast.
The thing of note in both of those vids was the lack of bonus powers used.  As I've beat the game already and played through as both Male and Female, Renegade and Paragon, I'm more into discovering multiple, yet equally effective ways to play the classes without the use of bonus powers.  My next Vanguard will try to focus more on Pull and Shockwave than the last time, useless as people may think it is...  and not only Charging and shotgunning, as fun and awesome as that is...  I'm also going try a CQC Infiltrator and a Sniping/Debuff Sentinel.

[tangofish]

thisisme8 wrote...

bbslayer_07 wrote...

Everything you said is true, it just depends on your class, a vangaurd typically needs to get up close, so cryo would be useful in stopping enemies like krogan, but for soldiers or infiltrators who kill at a distance other ammo types would be a better choice. But the main reason I'm saying this is because I typically snipe my opponents in 1-4 shots (I use the viper), so by the time they become frozen they'd be dead already.

I understand your position, but think about this:  the Devs put Cryo Ammo on the Infiltrator for a reason.  I don't know how it can be used best since I don't really play one, but I'm inclined to find out.

Infiltrator was my first playthrough (on harcore for the record) and I went sans bonus powers even after unlocking them. I found that squad cryo did a very good job at halting the advance of enemies. I played the infiltrator in a rather static sniping style (probably way too static to be honest), where I got to the best perch and used my squad to hold the position while I picked off priority targets. I mostly had characters like Samara, Thane or Miranda with me to quickly deal with defenses and I found that if I placed them with overlapping fields of fire and turned on cryo ammo they held the position superbly with minimal input on my part. Not only did it create a rather effective dead zone in front of me but the freeze tended to last long enough for me to finish them off with some quick pistol head shots, making those precious sniper rounds stretch much further.

In a sense it works in an inverse fashion when compared with vanguard style. Squad cryo ammo keeps things off your back as a vanguard, I found it kept me from being rushed and flanked as an infiltrator.

[baller7345]

I can vouch for cryo blast on an engineer. Even if the enemy has to be brought down to health it is still one of my most used powers. It pretty much lets me go on berserk runs because I have 2-3 frozen enemies (full cryo blast) and then the cooldown is quick so anything not frozen gets a neural shock while I charge. I kill most things with melee attacks and I'm an engineer.

[lessthanjake9]

bbslayer_07 wrote...

I do agree cryo can be useful under the right circumstances, but cryo ammo by itself isn't that useful as it does no bonus damage to armor, shields, barriers, or health. It is however good at taking enemies out of the fight momentarily, but by the time their defenses are down and the cryo can freeze them it'd be better to just kill them instead of freezing them.

And in your video your squadmates are using warp on the collectors and then freezing them, as I've said I still think that the other ammo types are better due to the fact they do bonus damage against defenses. While cryo requires you to take down your enemy defenses before it can be useful.

Cryo DOES essentially have a bonus to health damage. Because when you get an enemy down to health, they end up frozen, and when frozen you deal more damage to them. We don't know what the damage bonus is, but it seems substantial, and probably around 75-100% extra damage.

And if you think about it, that's a lot. Let's say it was 100%. For most enemies, they have one defense bar and one health bar. I might be wrong, but I think it is generally about 50/50 on how much shielding they have compared to health. If that's the case, then someone with a 100% bonus to health damage would kill as quickly as someone with 50% bonus to all damage (ie. Warp Ammo). And of course on top of that, you get a lot of crowd control.

Now granted, Cryo might not freeze something RIGHT away, so you might not always get the damage bonus throughout all of the health (though that is why you spend points in it, because it doesnt really have this problem when upgraded). And I might be wrong about enemies being 50/50 between health and defenses. And some mini-boss/boss enemies don't have a health bar at all. Lastly, certain builds require you to strip defenses off quickly in order to be most effective (ie. an adept who wants to use powers that aren't effective without defenses off). But the point is that in general, the overall damage bonus from cryo ammo is actually probably pretty substantial, which is amazing considering it has a huge use as crowd control as well. 

Modifié par lessthanjake9, 15 février 2010 - 04:58 .

[Darthnemesis2]

My first playthrough as an infiltrator I used cryo ammo for some encounters, but didn't see it being effective enough to keep for my second (insanity) run, due to it not taking down any defenses (and my Widow could one shot almost any enemy that didn't have defenses anyway). I can say that putting Cryo rounds on the SMG is fun though, I did do that for a bit before I retrained, and weaker enemies get demolished.

[Sfox1989]

thisisme8 wrote...

bbslayer_07 wrote...

Everything you said is true, it just depends on your class, a vangaurd typically needs to get up close, so cryo would be useful in stopping enemies like krogan, but for soldiers or infiltrators who kill at a distance other ammo types would be a better choice. But the main reason I'm saying this is because I typically snipe my opponents in 1-4 shots (I use the viper), so by the time they become frozen they'd be dead already.

I understand your position, but think about this:  the Devs put Cryo Ammo on the Infiltrator for a reason.  I don't know how it can be used best since I don't really play one, but I'm inclined to find out.

mundus66 wrote...

I find it good vs barrier enemies if
you don't have warp ammo as extra power. Vs synthetics and armored
enemies disruptor and incendiary are better. Cryo ammo has saved my
lives a couple of times though and i usually use it when i go up
against collectors. But everything else i don't bother and imo there
are some extra talents you can get instead like reave, double warp +
reave is nasty.

That's true, Reave is a beast.
The thing of note in both of those vids was the lack of bonus powers used.  As I've beat the game already and played through as both Male and Female, Renegade and Paragon, I'm more into discovering multiple, yet equally effective ways to play the classes without the use of bonus powers.  My next Vanguard will try to focus more on Pull and Shockwave than the last time, useless as people may think it is...  and not only Charging and shotgunning, as fun and awesome as that is...  I'm also going try a CQC Infiltrator and a Sniping/Debuff Sentinel.

I am personally playing an Infiltrator now and I am loving it. Once I get to a higher level I will be trying Cryo ammo out. I do know that Sniper Rifles cause an auto freeze when using Cryo Ammo.

[Paeyvn]

thisisme8 wrote...

I understand your position, but think about this:  the Devs put Cryo Ammo on the Infiltrator for a reason.  I don't know how it can be used best since I don't really play one, but I'm inclined to find out.

As I've heavily played Infiltrator I can tell you Cryo Ammo is really useful on SMG to freeze stuff if it gets close. Only need 1 point for that though...it's largely my "Ohgodkroganchargingmyface" ammo. Stuff freezing at distance when sniping is annoying cause they tend to fall over behind cover so I'd probably avoid squad cryo for that reason. Would be useful if you tried a CQC infiltrator though.

[Coughee Brotha]

thanks for showing how charge isnt useless on insanity

[Darnalak]

heh, if you wanna see all the charging goodness, find the 18 page vanguard thread... there's videos galore using every shotgun available (well, cept the katana)

[themaxzero]

I'm currently experimenting with a Reave Vanguard who does not use charge. Just Reave spam and Squad Cryo Ammo.



Extremely effective.

[JaegerBane]

I think there is an issue here that mot of the pro-cryo ammo positions depend on your character having squad cryo ammo. I should hope that a skill is actually useful after pumping 10 points into it. The point is that if you take it Improved, or don't evolve it, it's an order of magnitude less useful than any other ammo (barring perhaps Shredder) on the rank 1-3 scale.

Fire, AP and Warp do their upgraded damage as the skill is ranked up. Disruptor still cuts through shields on the way up. Cryo simply freezes for a bit longer, presuming that the shields and armour have gone down. Which the Vanguard is the least capable of the combat classes at doing (essentially depending on being right near an opponent and hammering them with an SMG or shotty, while Soldiers and Infils can simply switch on Disruptor ammo). Hell, even Sentinels and Engineers are better in such circumstances.