34 réponses à ce sujet

[themaxzero]

It is annoying that Cryo Ammo only really becomes powerful once in the squad version.

[thisisme8]

JaegerBane wrote...

Fire, AP and Warp do their upgraded damage as the skill is ranked up. Disruptor still cuts through shields on the way up. Cryo simply freezes for a bit longer, presuming that the shields and armour have gone down. Which the Vanguard is the least capable of the combat classes at doing (essentially depending on being right near an opponent and hammering them with an SMG or shotty, while Soldiers and Infils can simply switch on Disruptor ammo). Hell, even Sentinels and Engineers are better in such circumstances.

This is a little off topic, but shields, armor, barrier, whatever are not a concern for anyone.  You'll have to re-explain your paragraph up there because it looks like you are saying that Vanguards are also not effective at removing shields because they have to be right next to them.

[Divine Flame]

thisisme8 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Fire, AP and Warp do their upgraded damage as the skill is ranked up. Disruptor still cuts through shields on the way up. Cryo simply freezes for a bit longer, presuming that the shields and armour have gone down. Which the Vanguard is the least capable of the combat classes at doing (essentially depending on being right near an opponent and hammering them with an SMG or shotty, while Soldiers and Infils can simply switch on Disruptor ammo). Hell, even Sentinels and Engineers are better in such circumstances.

This is a little off topic, but shields, armor, barrier, whatever are not a concern for anyone.  You'll have to re-explain your paragraph up there because it looks like you are saying that Vanguards are also not effective at removing shields because they have to be right next to them.

I think they are saying that because cryo won't freeze until after defenses are removed then using it is pointless because if you're using an ammo power in order to do damage you're better off using Warp, AP, Inferno ammo. They all do damage up front and work against defenses. That's kinda how I read it. I could be wrong. I understand the use of Cryo on your squad to be CC like and to freeze ppl that  you aren't attacking while charging around the map as a vanguard.

[JaegerBane]

thisisme8 wrote...
This is a little off topic, but shields, armor, barrier, whatever are not a concern for anyone.  You'll have to re-explain your paragraph up there because it looks like you are saying that Vanguards are also not effective at removing shields because they have to be right next to them.

Divine Flame pretty much got it up front.

And yes, Vanguards aren't that effective at removing shields unless near their opponents. Simply deciding that shields are 'not a concern for anyone' is the kind of thing that needs a little re-explanation, as it sounds like you're saying that I should simply will them out of existence.

I suppose if I picked Shield Drain then I'd have an option to take shields down at range, but while they're an annoyance they aren't worth giving up Reave.

Understand that I'm not saying shields are impossible to deal with. Merely that the pretty graphics of Cryo ammo were less needed on a Vanguard than something that actually specialises in handling shields, like every other combat class and every other tech class has. The Adept's pretty much the only class in the same boat, and unlike the Vanguard, has a much more flexible set of bonus options.

And regarding off-topic... I was actually responding to the point that Cryo ammo is somehow a-okay so long as you take it as a squad option. My point is that *any* skill at rank 4 evolved is pretty good. It doesn't actually absolve the skill of being a bit pointless at lower levels.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 15 février 2010 - 04:32 .

[thisisme8]

JaegerBane wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...
This is a little off topic, but shields, armor, barrier, whatever are not a concern for anyone.  You'll have to re-explain your paragraph up there because it looks like you are saying that Vanguards are also not effective at removing shields because they have to be right next to them.

Divine Flame pretty much got it up front.

And yes, Vanguards aren't that effective at removing shields unless near their opponents. Simply deciding that shields are 'not a concern for anyone' is the kind of thing that needs a little re-explanation, as it sounds like you're saying that I should simply will them out of existence.

I suppose if I picked Shield Drain then I'd have an option to take shields down at range, but while they're an annoyance they aren't worth giving up Reave.

Understand that I'm not saying shields are impossible to deal with. Merely that the pretty graphics of Cryo ammo were less needed on a Vanguard than something that actually specialises in handling shields, like every other combat class and every other tech class has. The Adept's pretty much the only class in the same boat, and unlike the Vanguard, has a much more flexible set of bonus options.

And regarding off-topic... I was actually responding to the point that Cryo ammo is somehow a-okay so long as you take it as a squad option. My point is that *any* skill at rank 4 evolved is pretty good. It doesn't actually absolve the skill of being a bit pointless at lower levels.

Ok, I got you now and have had my coffee so I'm a little more open to discussion.

So, in my opinion shields work for the Vanguard more than against.  Shotguns inherently do extra damage vs. shields (x1.5 aside from the Calymore which does x1.25, but with so much power you don't notice), and prevent enemies from flying off with Heavy Charge (as does all defense).  This next part is just my opinion, but using Charge to close the gap and any shotgun to completely remove the shields of any standard foe (YMIR Mechs and certain bosses aside) completely trivializes them, and actually helps you since they are still close (didn't go flying off) for your 1-2 shots to kill (this includes shields and begs the question, what other class can take down multiple shielded enemies as fast as a Vanguard?).

In theory and based on skill set, Vanguards aren't effective vs. shields.  In practice, shielded enemies are the easiest to kill (now with the inclusion of the Evi, so are armored enemies).

Where does Cryo fit in to this?  It just makes your job that much easier.  Vs. Geth, I don't turn Incendiary Ammo on since it's useless, but Cryo isn't.  Shields go down rapidly, but Geth fights usually include 1-2 Hunters with them who have a lot more health than regular Troopers, plus do a lot more damage.  A couple shots won't necessarily take one down, but will freeze it giving you a couple seconds to finish it off, and on Insanity level, a couple of seconds is life or death.

Barrier also comes to mind.  Only Adepts have an inherent ability vs. this particular defense.  So the only effective choices are Warp or Shredder (since AP won't affect barrier and only does 70% vs. health while Shredder does 80%), both which are Bonus Powers.  Cryo, is the only inherent power for the Soldier to take a barriered enemy out of the fight faster than his/her other abilities.  Infiltrators can use Incinerate, but at it's highest level it still doesn't always kill an enemy at 100% health in the late-game.  Cryo will actually decomission the enemy faster than Shredder/AP/Warp/Incendiary can kill it.  Not an expert, but Engineers and Cryo Blast is the same concept.
Throwing Bonus powers into the mix changes things, but that's just what they are...  bonus.

Edited to make less "wall of textish"

Modifié par thisisme8, 15 février 2010 - 05:24 .

[Mars Nova]

Your vanguard puts mine to shame.  I had my doubts about the Vanguard after my first playthrough but now I realize I simply wasn't utilizing it correctly. 

[JaegerBane]

thisisme8 wrote...

Ok, I got you now and have had my coffee so I'm a little more open to discussion.

So, in my opinion shields work for the Vanguard more than against.  Shotguns inherently do extra damage vs. shields (x1.5 aside from the Calymore which does x1.25, but with so much power you don't notice), and prevent enemies from flying off with Heavy Charge (as does all defense).  This next part is just my opinion, but using Charge to close the gap and any shotgun to completely remove the shields of any standard foe (YMIR Mechs and certain bosses aside) completely trivializes them, and actually helps you since they are still close (didn't go flying off) for your 1-2 shots to kill (this includes shields and begs the question, what other class can take down multiple shielded enemies as fast as a Vanguard?).
In theory and based on skill set, Vanguards aren't effective vs. shields.  In practice, shielded enemies are the easiest to kill (now with the inclusion of the Evi, so are armored enemies).

While I can see what you're getting at, I would point out that its a very tenous point to claim that shields actually work for your because they prevent your opponent from flying off. Armour does the same. Mass does the same. In the end, they still protect your opponent.

Secondly, every class in the game has access to a particularly effective anti-shield weapon. Soldiers have shotguns too, and everyone else has SMGs. It's not like Vanguards have some sort of unique advantage here.

Where does Cryo fit in to this?  It just makes your job that much easier.  Vs. Geth, I don't turn Incendiary Ammo on since it's useless, but Cryo isn't.  Shields go down rapidly, but Geth fights usually include 1-2 Hunters with them who have a lot more health than regular Troopers, plus do a lot more damage.  A couple shots won't necessarily take one down, but will freeze it giving you a couple seconds to finish it off, and on Insanity level, a couple of seconds is life or death.
Barrier also comes to mind.  Only Adepts have an inherent ability vs. this particular defense.  So the only effective choices are Warp or Shredder (since AP won't affect barrier and only does 70% vs. health while Shredder does 80%), both which are Bonus Powers.  Cryo, is the only inherent power for the Soldier to take a barriered enemy out of the fight faster than his/her other abilities.  Infiltrators can use Incinerate, but at it's highest level it still doesn't always kill an enemy at 100% health in the late-game.  Cryo will actually decomission the enemy faster than Shredder/AP/Warp/Incendiary can kill it. 

There's a number of problems here.

First of all, I think you've misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not claiming Cryo is impossible to use. My own Vanguard has a single point in it for the very reason you've pointed out. The difference is that it only has any of it's neutralisation effects on an opponent who is not defended. I'm sure Cryo can decomission an enemy faster. But Pull and Shockwave do it far faster than Cryo, and don't require me to forfeit the fire bonuses from fire ammo which, thanks to the classes' dependance on SMGs and Shotguns, means I desperately need it to handle armour.

That's the crux of my whole argument. Cryo ammo effectively does the same job as biotics, only in an inferior fashion, and cuts down my damage potential and inflicts a weakness against armour to boot (since I can't have two ammos active at once). Meanwhile, the class is stuck having to do full on charges just to handle shields, while *every other class* has no need to.

Not an expert, but Engineers and Cryo Blast is the same concept.
Throwing Bonus powers into the mix changes things, but that's just what they are...  bonus.

Admittedly, this is another area that I'm not a fan of regarding the Vanguard. The fact that you have to pick a bonus power just to make sure it has the same number of tools as other classes do at stock is not something that screams balanced gameplay, but that is a seperate issue.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 15 février 2010 - 05:36 .

[RighteousRage]

Why does this game always look 500 times more action packed when I see other people playing it? I'm a soldier on insanity and the game is about as stimulating as afternoon tea, haha.



*shoots enemy in head*



*shoots enemy in head*



*shoots enemy in head*



*jogs*

[thisisme8]

JaegerBane wrote...

That's the crux of my whole argument. Cryo ammo effectively does the same job as biotics, only in an inferior fashion, and cuts down my damage potential and inflicts a weakness against armour to boot (since I can't have two ammos active at once). Meanwhile, the class is stuck having to do full on charges just to handle shields, while *every other class* has no need to.

Not an expert, but Engineers and Cryo Blast is the same concept.
Throwing Bonus powers into the mix changes things, but that's just what they are...  bonus.

Admittedly, this is another area that I'm not a fan of regarding the Vanguard. The fact that you have to pick a bonus power just to make sure it has the same number of tools as other classes do at stock is not something that screams balanced gameplay, but that is a seperate issue.

To each his own, I suppose.  I like Cryo Ammo because it's passive.  If it's on, it's doing its job with no additional input from me.  Cryo Blast can be used at range, has a fast cooldown, freezes the enemy (potentially more than 1 enemy) and doubles (not sure the exact number, but it feels close to double) the damage of whatever else I'm about to do.  On a Krogan, you can Incinerate their shields, freeze them with Cryo and dinish them off, where a second Incinerate wouldn't kill them and they'd continue to advance while spewing things like, "Use a man's gun!"

Re: your Vanguard argument:  Used to be that armor was their only weakness, but with the inclusion of Evi, that's not true anymore.  You're forgetting the Vanguards most effective tool vs. any defense - The Shotgun (in caps for effect).  90% of all shielded, barriered, armored enemies in game are effectively defenseless with one shot from any shotgun.  Taking down defenses at range can be done with your SMG or Heavy Pistol, but why?  Enemies at range are only as annoying to a Vanguard as enemies in close quarters are to every other class with the exception of the Soldier.  Anyway, this paragraph should really be in a Vanguard thread and not here.

[thisisme8]

RighteousRage wrote...

Why does this game always look 500 times more action packed when I see other people playing it? I'm a soldier on insanity and the game is about as stimulating as afternoon tea, haha.

*shoots enemy in head*

*shoots enemy in head*

*shoots enemy in head*

*jogs*

We add cool rock 'n' roll or techno soundtracks to make it seem more exciting.