154 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyinElk212]

smudboy wrote...

Shepard is a flat character and has 0 development. 

I'm sorry, but this is definitely high up on the list of stupidest comments I've seen made on these forums.

[AtreiyaN7]

I agree with you, OP. Nice to see something positive once in a while. ME2 isn't perfect, but it's an excellent game.

[Frotality]

praise as blind as some of the rage.

the golden age of artistic priority in games has long been gone. bioware kept it up for a good while longer than most, but the decline is clearly starting to show.

so good job making great games as long as you did...shame the corporate masters got to you, but what can you do, go bankrupt?

[TerribleTruth]

Frotality wrote...

praise as blind as some of the rage.

the golden age of artistic priority in games has long been gone. bioware kept it up for a good while longer than most, but the decline is clearly starting to show.

so good job making great games as long as you did...shame the corporate masters got to you, but what can you do, go bankrupt?

How are those nostalgia goggles treating you?

Modifié par TerribleTruth, 15 février 2010 - 06:58 .

[Sharn01]

About as good as your knee pads I would imagine.

[HeavyTankZA]

Mass Effect 1 was good in it's own way, ME 2 took that and improved upon it in many ways. Damn good job Bioware, keep up the good work folks

[TerribleTruth]

Sharn01 wrote...

About as good as your knee pads I would imagine.

Ok, I tried, but I can't glean any meaning from this post. Why am I wearing knee pads?

[Ghostano]

ehh as far as moveing the story forward until ME3 comes out I could skip ME2 all togther and still not miss a thing in the over all story. I can sum up ME2... collecters are prothens and they made a human shaped ripper and you have a ship of horny teamates. There saved everyone 60 buck . I guess everyone that ****ed out the combat system of ME1 should have shut up and thanked bioware blindy then. I love these fourms now you do not think ME2 is the greatest thing every you are a troll and brian dead idiot.



ME2 was ok but seems like they spent to much time changeing combat they ran out of time for anything else. I am happy to see the target audience loves it so it is a success.

[Ghostano]

TerribleTruth wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

About as good as your knee pads I would imagine.

Ok, I tried, but I can't glean any meaning from this post. Why am I wearing knee pads?

I would asume it refers to the act of kissing something

[Frotality]

TerribleTruth wrote...

Frotality wrote...

praise as blind as some of the rage.

the golden age of artistic priority in games has long been gone. bioware kept it up for a good while longer than most, but the decline is clearly starting to show.

so good job making great games as long as you did...shame the corporate masters got to you, but what can you do, go bankrupt?

How are those nostalgia goggles treating you?

they were awesome....but i only got the 30 second free trial...

[MarginalBeast]

As much as I love ME2, I'm not going to pretend that its flaws don't exist.



A game company should ALWAYS strive to do better regardless of limitations. If every game developer said "Well, what we have is really awesome so there isn't much need to make it more awesome" then there would be a problem.

[OfTheFaintSmile]

Bioware has changed the world. RPG's will NEVER be the same. Just going back to a Final Fantasy game it seems...lacking

Bioware, us fans just want to let you know that though we love to criticize you we are also huge fans of your art and our criticism is intended to help improve your games and make you the best damn game developer this planet has ever seen

Modifié par OfTheFaintSmile, 15 février 2010 - 07:56 .

[namesdontwork]

what alot of people forget is that what bioware tried to do with ME2, carrying over decisions from a previous game rather than just making canon, most companies would consider insane. while it wasnt perfectly executed it was pretty well done considering how experimental it probably was. im glad they had the balls to try something like it and i hope they keep doing it.

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

smudboy wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I, of course, disagree with OP.

The point of any meaningful media is story.  ME2's story?  Not so great.  For a game that's a sequel, one expects a certain level of quality, continuity, and especially logic.  ME2 didn't have to try that hard in the writing department to get it right.  I just wish it tried.

There is nothing wrong with the ME2 story and it delivers on all 8 factors a story should deliver. Besides, I haven't been so thrilled with the conclusion of a game as I was with ME2.
From the start of the game you know you're going to do something crazy no sane person would do, or could do, a suicide mission, hitting the Omega-4 relay.
During the entire game you build a team and prepare for this, knowning that you might not survive. After spending hours of preparing and finding out who the collectors are and what they're up to, you finally start that imfamous suicide mission. I really thought by myself: "Man, we're finally gonna do it!" With the 'suidice mission' OST playing in the background I really was thrilled and excited. "This is what we've lived up to during the entire game, yeah!" is what I thought my myself.

Nothing wrong?

What are these 8 factors that a story should deliver?  I'm quite sure two of them aren't a resurrection and fighting a disembodied Terminator embryo being fed gray human paste.

Shepard is a flat character and has 0 development.  There is no rising action, no tension, no immediacy.  The motives of the antagonist are unknown, as are their methods and intentions.  Side characters have more character than the protagonist.

Two blaring plot holes off the top of my head: unfrozen Kaidan/Ashley, and the whole IFF/shuttle extravaganza.

shepard is you, you dont need to develop a character that is supposed to be you, because its you. the motives of the antagonist will most likely be known in the 3rd game.

[Doug84]

Nice OP - agreed.

TerribleTruth wrote...

Frotality wrote...

praise as blind as some of the rage.

the golden age of artistic priority in games has long been gone. bioware kept it up for a good while longer than most, but the decline is clearly starting to show.

so good job making great games as long as you did...shame the corporate masters got to you, but what can you do, go bankrupt?

How are those nostalgia goggles treating you?

Very, very, VERY true!

[smudboy]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Shepard is a flat character and has 0 development. 

I'm sorry, but this is definitely high up on the list of stupidest comments I've seen made on these forums.

Explain.

[MaaZeus]

smudboy wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Shepard is a flat character and has 0 development. 

I'm sorry, but this is definitely high up on the list of stupidest comments I've seen made on these forums.

Explain.

It has been explained above. Shepard is YOU. YOU shape him the way you want him to be and whatever motivations drive you, and in my eyes Mass Effect does this illusion brilliantly.

Termireaper was bad. Death & Resurrection smells like a hack job. Yes, ME2 isnt perfect. But its story is still good. The "big picture" story is small. Hell, it wasnt big in ME1 either. But gathering characters and getting familiar with them is big part of the story. Mass Effect works like a Scifi TV serie. It probaply doesnt have that big of a overarching story, but what happens inside that small story is what makes it great. Its a matter of POV I guess.

This is just me though.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 15 février 2010 - 02:03 .

[EDarkness]

You're right. They are a business and as a result, we can vote with our dollars/yen/won/etc. If they don't make it better next time, they simply won't get people money. If they can't make money, then they go out of business, and what good would that do them?

[wollert]

Well said OP, however critique is needed to evolve and progress and you summarized pretty clearly just what role striving for better has had in our evolution.



I just cant believe some grown people cant tell the difference between critique and ****ing. And the devs have made it clear that they do listen to critique but not ****ing.

[smudboy]

Luc0s wrote...

The 8 key factors every good story, and ME2 shines in almost every one of them:

1) "You": A good introduction to the protagonist (Shepard). Who he/she is (first human spectre, human icon) and what his/her problems are (died 2 years ago, lost everything, nobody trusts/believes him).

2) "Need": There is a problem (human colonies get abducted), someone is in need (humanity). The protagonist has become part of this problem (through Cerberus) and has to find a way to fix it.

3) "Go": Start of the protagonist's journey and first plotpoint (the Collectors are behind the vanished human colonies, they work for the Reapers).

4) "Search": Now the protagonist has to find new power and forces to solve the problem (Shepard has to create a strong team to hit the Omega-4 relay to stop the Collectors).

5) "Find": Second plotpoint. The protagonist discovers something new regarding the problem (The Collectors are in fact Protheans that got re-purposed by the Reapers).

6) "Take": The "goodguys" lose, the protagonist will be hit on a personal level, but the loss will give the protagonist more strength to continue his/her journey (crew on the Normandy get abducted by the Collectors).

7) "Return": The protagonist strikes back. He/she will finally be ready to face the problem. His/her gained knowledge regarding the problem, his/her newfound powers (allies) will aid him/her and the loss from point 6 will strengthen him/her (Shepard finally sets course to the Omega-4 relay to take out the Collectors).

8) "Change": The problem got solved, but the situation has changed, the protagonist can rest (but for how long?) (Collectors get whiped out, but the human Reaper is concerning. The Reapers are approaching, but for now Shepard has done his job).


Trust me. EVERY major story follows these 8 points, so does every Mass Effect game. I think BioWare did a good job on the Mass Effect story, my only concern is point 6, "Take". I think that's the only weak part of the ME2 story.

Where did you get this list?

These "key factors" do not a good story make.  Just because they could be present, doesn't make it a "good story."  I'm quite sure you know why.  What's the diff between "Go" and "Search"?  I'm guessing "Find" is the answer to "Search"?  You can fill those entries with any nouns/verbs, and I'm sure there are more basic patterns, but I don't think it'll make a line of logic found in every story.  I'd rather argue the Hero's Journey as a more viable method, since the scope and setting of ME requires a basic method that anyone can identify with.  For that, it's good that Shepard is a everyday man/woman, amidst an alien universe.

Let me give you a run down of how "good" your list is:

1) Shepard = Jesus.  So?  He's an icon, resurrected, a hero, first human spectre, etc.  But anyone could do his/her job. (e.g. Miranda.)  No one trusts Miranda either.  She'd have pretty much the same odds, being Cerberus, since being resurrected and a Spectre (in ME2) means nothing.  We didn't need a deus ex machina device just to introduce a previous protagonist out of continuity, in the first 10 minutes.
2)-4) Are fine.  The problem is 4) is the game, which has nothing to do with the story.  And we don't know why (excluding Mordin): the characters we find are useless/replaceable.  TIM just says so, so we get them.  We can buy some of his choices, but they're all on face value.  Okeer comes only vaguely close, but he just dies.
5) Is completely useless.  Sure, now we know they're Protheans.  So?  That's the great revelation?  How does this help the goal/story?  The Collectors could've been any race for all it's worth, since this wasn't developed.
6) The biggest plot hole in the story.  Notice how this doesn't change or hinder the goal in any way.  We're still going to go on the suicide mission, and EDI just picks up the slack.  The player might be more motivated?  I don't know.  I guess I feel a bit sad for my NPC crew.  Shepard definitely doesn't seem too shook up.
7) The whole point of the story.  In your assessment, he's strengthed by 6, but I can't see it.  He's neither strengthened nor hindered.
8) Giant baby Arnold.

So, again, just because  there are elements present in your list, doesn't make those things a "good story."  And how ME2 shines at them, well...

How about if they used basic literary devices, like foreshadowing?  Or actually developed the opposing force/antagonist  (Do they want to kill or collect Shepard and his team?)  Or making us care about the protagonist, watching them develop through conflict?  6) could've been an amazing opportunity for this.  Actually, every main step could've been an amazing opportunity for Shepard to be his heroic/brutal self.

Here's a rough Dramatic Structure list in relation to yours:

1) Exposition: Shepard's brought back to life (!), colonies are disappearing.  So we, (for some reason are so important), need to go save these colonies.  Okay, plot device right off the bat, but I can buy that.  That's your 1-3.
2) Rising Action: Get Mordin to make a defense against the Collectors.  How Cerberus/Mordin gets the swarm to test on, we don't know.  Mordin making a countermeasure: yes.  Not very dramatic, but it's all we got.  I guess this could be your 4-5.  (I have no idea where 6 is done well in ME2.)  The reason why it's only Mordin, is, well, the rest of the team is useless/replaceable/optional.  We don't know why we need a strong team, aside from TIM saying so.  Each character is their own story outside the main story.  If they were integral, and important, they'd be necessary, intricate, intertwined with it.  Instead, they're just a shopping list along for the ride: cannonfodder, baggage, a dossier, etc.
3) Climax: The suicide mission. Which is the point.  We discover Shepard as a ship captain ("get in close to finish them off"), and that most of our team (who have no motivation/involvement/role to be there) are either completely useless and/or replaceable.  This only vaguely represents your 7, because this is the point of the story (though the point or goal of a story is not necessarily it's climax, or return, or is a development from your 6.)  If it doesn't deal with your 7 properly, how is it a shining example of a good story?
4) Falling Action: I guess it's after baby Arnold is defeated, or while Shepard is arguing with TIM to blow up the base.  This could be your 8.
5) Dénoument: The closing cinematic, and Shepard talking to TIM post-suicide mission, and we see the Reaper fleet.

Notice how the side-character recruitment and loyalty missions have nothing to do with anything.  Which is where any drama/character development was.  Drama makes me care about something.  It makes we identify with the pixels on the screen.  In ME2, Shepard doesn't have that.  He doesn't develop.

Why couldn't ME2 have both side-character development, and main character development?  Why sacrifice the main plot for side-characters?

I think if you don't do some Recruit/Loyalty missions, in the suicide mission, Shepard screams out to a side-character getting carried off by swarms, bows his head in losing someone who got hit by a rocket, tries picking up two characters who died fighting Baby Arnold, and if he himself dies, gives Joker a quick pep-talk about warning everyone.  This was good: in these simple actions, this makes me identify with him as a character based on his background (being a sole-survivor, how to deal with death, etc.)  It's a shame this only occurs if you don't play the rest of the game (which is the unnecessarily large Pokémon shopping list.)  I think the only time we see some humanity from the fellow on the main plot is when he's peeling people out of their pods.

I don't think ME2 is a bad story.  I just don't see it as a good story.  And it most definitely does not shine.

[smudboy]

MaaZeus wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Shepard is a flat character and has 0 development. 

I'm sorry, but this is definitely high up on the list of stupidest comments I've seen made on these forums.

Explain.

It has been explained above. Shepard is YOU. YOU shape him the way you want him to be and whatever motivations drive you, and in my eyes Mass Effect does this illusion brilliantly.

Termireaper was bad. Death & Resurrection smells like a hack job. Yes, ME2 isnt perfect. But its story is still good. The "big picture" story is small. Hell, it wasnt big in ME1 either. But gathering characters and getting familiar with them is big part of the story. Mass Effect works like a Scifi TV serie. It probaply doesnt have that big of a overarching story, but what happens inside that small story is what makes it great. Its a matter of POV I guess.

This is just me though.

Then Shepard is a robot.  And that makes him/her flat.

However, ME2 developers could've programmed this robot avatar of ours to respond and react to certain stimuli, sad, happy, etc.  Have dialog optinos that choose how we can react emotionally, but there isn't.  (Maybe when Kelly asks about our relationships with ME1 characters.)  Shepard can only be "nice" and "grr" in certain situations based on P/R scores.  Which unfortunately had nothing or no involvement with the main plot conflicts.  He doesn't develop as a character in either that or the side-missions, talking to random people, etc.  Just one walking plot device.  Compare the speech Shepard gives on the Normandy in ME1 (which isn't optional), where he/she's about to start theirjourney, to the speeches he gave in the Suicide Mission (which I think were optional.)  Which were more memorable?

ME1's story is fantastic.  ME2's story is mediocre at best.

ME1's characters are intricate to the story (and even optional!)  ME2's characters are optional, replaceable, and some are completely useless (save Mordin.)

ME1's Shepard is dramatic.  ME2's, pretty flat.

[TheShady]

Seriously, be careful not to praise too much. If you tell them that you'll buy whatever they make, you basically urge them to throw crap at you. It's just a dangerous road.
Companies need to be in constant competition and under pressure by their customers. The purchase of their products is praise and sign of support enough.

You can point out what you like and what you dislike about the products, to give feedback and to try to improve future products. But try not to shower them with positivity or else they grow too confident.



I expect good things from Bioware, I expect them to live up to their name, but I will always be suspicious of their development directions.
I dislike ME2 enough to not blindly buy ME3, like I did with ME2. I am also not ok with turning KoTOR into an MMORPG.

And before you're saying those idiotic "don't like it, don't buy it" or "it's up to them what they do with their IP" things: I participated in financing them. When you create a series, or when you create anything at all, you have a certain responsibility. If you have fans, that responsibility grows. Of a series you expect a continuity, that the newest installment is kinda similar and follows the same quality-standards as the previous installment. That continuity was very much broken in ME2 at least for me, so much that I will think twice before buying ME3.

[ODST 3]

Praise threads FTW!



Nothing meanspirited. Nothing's perfect, but Mass Effect 2 is the best experience I've ever had with a video game.

[ODST 3]

smudboy wrote...

I, of course, disagree with OP.

The point of any meaningful media is story.

Hm, I bought the game hoping to get hours of fun, drama, and intrigue out of it. That's what I got.