154 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I don't think Shepard is a flat character. He is as rich as BioWare could make him with their dinamic dialogue system. Shepard is as rich or flat as you play him. If you play him as renegade as you can, he'll be an ruthless **** who doesn't give a **** and basically gives is ruthless additude all the credit for the fact that he survived situations where other people would have failed.
If you play him paragon, he'll be a caring protagonist who cares about his crew and everyone else. He will be an honorable soldier who doesn't sacrifice other people's lifes easily, he'll do his best to save everyone.

Honestly, the only way for BioWare to give Shepard more depth is to strip the custom-character option and go with one single canon Shepard for everyone. With all the different options (different history options, paragon&renegade options, male/female option, etc) it's impossible to really give Shepard any more depth than he already has.

A flat character: "a character who reveals only one, maybe two, personality traits in a story or novel, and the trait(s) do not change."

Via character choice, he can be either P/R.  He's flat.

He can also be a static character: "a character that remains primarily the same throughout a story or novel. Events in the story do not alter a static character’s outlook, personality, motivation, perception, habits, etc."

The background of Shepard has nothing to do with, well, anything really.  Except maybe bonuses to P/R at start?

I think you nailed it: if BioWare went iconic Shepard, they'd have the opportunity for him to actually develop, or at least have more time to focus on that.  They can even still keep the P/R system, since it's just an attitude to react to situations.

Paragon/Renegade Shepard in relation to his crewmates?  Where does he care or not-care?  Are we referring to the Tali/Legion and Miranda/Jack scenes?  Because if you choose the P/R option, the outcome is the same.  The only real difference is if you don't use the P/R choice, and instead choose a side.  Now that's some good conflict.

Sorry, but I think that what you suggest is retarded.

YOU are Shepard, he's your avatar in Mass Effect. What you think, what you believe, what you choose is what Shepard will think, believe, choose. In other words, if you considered Shepard flat, then you are considering yourself as flat. I am not flat in Mass Effect.

I do changed my mind about Geth and quarian in ME2, and I also learn and cared a lot about the genophage problem, that though definitive and simple, and my opinion about Cerberus, the Citadel and the Alliance too. And I made decisions and took steps in a way or another. I have an opinion about those topics. And more importantly, Mass Effect lets you put that opinions in your avatar, Shepard, and that's what makes the game great.

You're flat? Okey, but don't say every Shepard is.

Please give examples where Shepard is not flat.

[Looy]

I'll drink to that!

smudboy wrote...
Please give examples where Shepard is not flat.

If you need someone to explain why that stament is retarded, you are retarded.

Modifié par Looy, 15 février 2010 - 06:51 .

[Knoll Argonar]

Shepard was a synthetic-hate-**** during ME1 and the beggining of ME2, but because He met EDI and Legion, the Geth problem, he changed his mind and begin to understand them and even be interested in them.



Same problem with Genophage: He destroyed the Virmire facility convinced that it was for the good of the galaxy. Now, because of Mordin and Wrex, He's not so sure about that anymore.



Oh well, I supose this won't work on you, but then let me ask you a question then: What would make your Shepard not-flat?

[cancausecancer]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Shepard was a synthetic-hate-**** during ME1 and the beggining of ME2, but because He met EDI and Legion, the Geth problem, he changed his mind and begin to understand them and even be interested in them.

Same problem with Genophage: He destroyed the Virmire facility convinced that it was for the good of the galaxy. Now, because of Mordin and Wrex, He's not so sure about that anymore.

Oh well, I supose this won't work on you, but then let me ask you a question then: What would make your Shepard not-flat?

That doesn't describe my Shepard. My Shepard would prefer EDI dummied down and would prefer the Geth being deactivated as a whole or reduced to non sensient machines.

He also supports the geophage because it keeps the uncivilized animals in check. The last thing we need is wild bears roaming near our pre-schools.

[tkaz85]

ME2 is definitely not perfect, and I hope Bioware listens to us again and makes ME3 the pinnacle of the series (which is would be someplace really really high).



That said, there are only two gaming companies whose games I will buy no matter what because I trust them to always produce quality products. Bioware is one of them (Blizzard is the other one).

[Knoll Argonar]

cancausecancer wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Shepard was a synthetic-hate-**** during ME1 and the beggining of ME2, but because He met EDI and Legion, the Geth problem, he changed his mind and begin to understand them and even be interested in them.

Same problem with Genophage: He destroyed the Virmire facility convinced that it was for the good of the galaxy. Now, because of Mordin and Wrex, He's not so sure about that anymore.

Oh well, I supose this won't work on you, but then let me ask you a question then: What would make your Shepard not-flat?

That doesn't describe my Shepard. My Shepard would prefer EDI dummied down and would prefer the Geth being deactivated as a whole or reduced to non sensient machines.

He also supports the geophage because it keeps the uncivilized animals in check. The last thing we need is wild bears roaming near our pre-schools.

That's the magic of Mass Effect, don't you think? The fact that the game lets us to have this different opinions is what makes the series great. It's not just about being good or bad. Here you have opinions, character's have opinions too, and you all act the way you think it's correc. You as Shepard believe something and evolve differently than I do.

That's why I think the suggestment I quoted was retarded.

I think you get my point =)

[smudboy]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Shepard was a synthetic-hate-**** during ME1 and the beggining of ME2, but because He met EDI and Legion, the Geth problem, he changed his mind and begin to understand them and even be interested in them.

Same problem with Genophage: He destroyed the Virmire facility convinced that it was for the good of the galaxy. Now, because of Mordin and Wrex, He's not so sure about that anymore.

Oh well, I supose this won't work on you, but then let me ask you a question then: What would make your Shepard not-flat?

So your idea of him being a non-flat (round, etc.) character is: he previously dislikes synthetics, and he destroyed Virmire?

I think I posted the definition before:
"a character who reveals only one, maybe two, personality traits in a story or novel, and the trait(s) do not change."

Here's another:
"A flat character is a minor character in a work of fiction who does not undergo substantial change or growth in the course of a story. Also referred to as "two-dimensional characters" or "static characters," flat characters play a supporting role to the main character, who as a rule should be round."

Anything that develops Shepard as a character.  For example, I could buy the whole P/R system, if it allowed you to be both P and R at times.  And in some situations at the start, you can be P, and later the R.  But the game isn't setup that way: you have to be pure P or R to get more advanced options.  It would also help if these situations were along the main plot.  (This worked well in KOTOR, where the system was a scale, not a simple "the more you do.") I can't think of any main plot situations where P/R is used in ME2.  And if it's not the main plot, then it doesn't involve Shepard.  Although I'd welcome any great changes to Shepard along side quests, too.  We never got that.

If the main plot allowed Shepard to change, to deal with conflict, forcing them to struggle to choose, and that choice had unchangeable consequences to Shepard as a person, then sure, that would be considered development.  If it was relateable to the main plot or used in continuity, even better: there'd be a reason why Shepard was resurrected, why we need the hero of the citadel, the only human with the Prothean cipher, the first human spectre, etc.  As it stands, the side-quests/recruitment/loyalty missions, are purely static, and have no bearing on Shepard as a character.  They are a means to an end for the side-character.  Even the romance options are static, being able to drop/add one as one plays.  The developers wanted to give the player all these options, yet, they were forced into a pure P/R role, but where everything else is static.

Imagine if Shepard, with all his/her cybernetic upgrdes, could somehow communicate to the antagnoist/opposing force.  Imagine if Shepard was part Reaper/Collector/Prothean, having visions, or dreams, or whatever, causing him/her to have insight into the enemy, somehow communicating with Harbinger, where we could learn about them more.  Imagine if he/she had some relationship with Baby Arnold, as we were slowly alluding to it throughout the course of the game.  Imagine all that money TIM put into Lazarus, in order for Shepard to defeat the enemy:  that they had to become the enemy.  Internal conflict.  Struggle.  Violent urges, etc.  Imagine the wonderful little asides and struggles they had to deal with, based on ones growth in P and R, and how you had to keep Shepard in control.  This is just off the top of my head here, but wouldn't that have been much more interesting, to see Shepard struggle against his/her artifical/Reaper/Collector self, then just giving Pokémon center stage?

Modifié par smudboy, 15 février 2010 - 07:38 .

[smudboy]

Looy wrote...

I'll drink to that!

smudboy wrote...
Please give examples where Shepard is not flat.

If you need someone to explain why that stament is retarded, you are retarded.

Hence why I'm asking.

[cedardryad]

I agree that they need their praise. I know a lot of people complained about the sex scenes in both DA:O and ME2, me included, but for different reasons. I just hated how the successfully pulled it off in ME1 and made it beautiful and tasteful and then it went to undie sex in DA:O and sudden fade outs in ME2. My disappointment stemmed from the fact that I think they lost some artistic freedom here, or in many cases there are a bit more important things to work on.(totally understandable).  Plus, I believe they might have been scared off because of the FOX news thing, even though that lady did issue an apology afterwards and admitted she was wrong saying the scenes were PG and tastefully done. Cleaner than what they show on t.v.

When it came to characters that some people were complaining about,(Kaidan, Ashley, Liara) I never cared about them in the first place, but I liked the change in their personalities. My faves only became more lovable to me and it made me happy. As long as Wrex was happy to see me I was thrilled.

Kudos to Bioware.

[Chained_Creator]

smudboy wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I don't think Shepard is a flat character. He is as rich as BioWare could make him with their dinamic dialogue system. Shepard is as rich or flat as you play him. If you play him as renegade as you can, he'll be an ruthless **** who doesn't give a **** and basically gives is ruthless additude all the credit for the fact that he survived situations where other people would have failed.
If you play him paragon, he'll be a caring protagonist who cares about his crew and everyone else. He will be an honorable soldier who doesn't sacrifice other people's lifes easily, he'll do his best to save everyone.

Honestly, the only way for BioWare to give Shepard more depth is to strip the custom-character option and go with one single canon Shepard for everyone. With all the different options (different history options, paragon&renegade options, male/female option, etc) it's impossible to really give Shepard any more depth than he already has.

A flat character: "a character who reveals only one, maybe two, personality traits in a story or novel, and the trait(s) do not change."

Via character choice, he can be either P/R.  He's flat.

He can also be a static character: "a character that remains primarily the same throughout a story or novel. Events in the story do not alter a static character’s outlook, personality, motivation, perception, habits, etc."

The background of Shepard has nothing to do with, well, anything really.  Except maybe bonuses to P/R at start?

I think you nailed it: if BioWare went iconic Shepard, they'd have the opportunity for him to actually develop, or at least have more time to focus on that.  They can even still keep the P/R system, since it's just an attitude to react to situations.

Paragon/Renegade Shepard in relation to his crewmates?  Where does he care or not-care?  Are we referring to the Tali/Legion and Miranda/Jack scenes?  Because if you choose the P/R option, the outcome is the same.  The only real difference is if you don't use the P/R choice, and instead choose a side.  Now that's some good conflict.

Sorry, but I think that what you suggest is retarded.

YOU are Shepard, he's your avatar in Mass Effect. What you think, what you believe, what you choose is what Shepard will think, believe, choose. In other words, if you considered Shepard flat, then you are considering yourself as flat. I am not flat in Mass Effect.

I do changed my mind about Geth and quarian in ME2, and I also learn and cared a lot about the genophage problem, that though definitive and simple, and my opinion about Cerberus, the Citadel and the Alliance too. And I made decisions and took steps in a way or another. I have an opinion about those topics. And more importantly, Mass Effect lets you put that opinions in your avatar, Shepard, and that's what makes the game great.

You're flat? Okey, but don't say every Shepard is.

Please give examples where Shepard is not flat.

Please give examples of where Shepard is not you.

A character that is you cannot change in the game because you are still yourself, unless you change by means of events in the game. Only by means of events in game, mind, otherwise it becomes events outside Shepard's reality [Deity figure] change, which is not character development.

Modifié par Chained_Creator, 15 février 2010 - 07:55 .

[Srslydude01]

Bioware deserves a lot of credit indeed. All I play now is pretty much exclusively Bioware games so they definitely have my support entirely. They definitely have their hands full with future DLC for ME2 and more so with ME 3. There is so much that could be in that game. I don't know how they are going to do it and am very interested how they are going to pull it off.

[Knoll Argonar]

So you think that if it doesn't appear in the main plot, it doesn't count.

Cool.

Quoting

So your idea of him being a non-flat (round, etc.) character is: he previously dislikes synthetics, and he destroyed Virmire?

No, I consider myself round because what happened during ME2 changed my point of view and, therefore, my choices compared to what I believed in ME1. That's character progresion, you know.

All your plot twist and fan fiction is great, but how do you really want the game to show that your Shepard (you) have changed?

True that maybe the fact that your level of Paragon or Renegade level lets you access some choices or not may be something to talk, but oh well.

PD: Sorry, i'm spanish, English vocabulary limitations everywhere xD

EDIT:

Agreed with Chained_Creator. Shepard is your Avatar in the game. Therefore, if you change, he changes to. If ME3 forced you to play as something that is not yourself, Mass Effect can go to Hell. I'm living the adventure, not watching someone living it.

Modifié par Knoll Argonar, 15 février 2010 - 08:07 .

[smudboy]

Chained_Creator wrote...

Please give examples of where Shepard is not you.

A character that is you cannot change in the game because you are still yourself, unless you change by means of events in the game. Only by means of events in game, mind, otherwise it becomes events outside Shepard's reality [Deity figure] change, which is not character development.

Shepard is not me.  I merely push Shepard along, have him choose what kind of choices to make.  The player is one giant plot device.  These choices are what the writer has given me.  Shepard's reactions do not completely behave as the way I would behave.  I am not a dialog wheel.  Video games are the equivalent of a remote-controlled car, with digital media.  Give the car a different paint job, different sounding horn, better tires, whatever, it's still a car.  In relation to Shepard as a character, there is no major conflict in ME2 that causes character development (that I can see) in Shepard.  He's on a mission.  He can react P or R.  That makes him flat.  Additionally, the developers made it so you'd have to play pure P or R, which decreases your options for that "dynamic" character you think you have.

Your argument is that because the player can choose whatever options they're given, that the Shepard character is as flat, round or dynamic as possible?  What?  How?  If Shepard does not change or grow from those choices, then he's just a static plot device, in every choice you make, because you have freedom to select whatever you want (aside from pure P/R selections, because that's a "if more in this column" issue.)  He's just a remote-controlled car.  There is no background, no exposition, no rhyme or reason.  It's just "Do what I choose" because you're in control.  These are just reactions, not actual developments: Shepard remains static no matter how many Ps, Rs or big things (save Rachni, save Council, kill Rex, etc.) you've chosen.  Now, that doesn't mean Shepard could've been written that way, that if you choose a certain option, he'll develop along those lines (but this is not a viable option, unless you argue the P/R system.)  When motivation of a character is taken out, or generalized, there's no purpose or meaning behind his actions.  That's just the nature of the medium.  There are more of these options in ME1 than ME2, that's for sure, (ME2 had the Collector base), which make ME2 Shepard completely replaceable.  And thus static.

The best one can do in these games is akin to a Choose your own Adventure story.  The player isn't Shepard, you're just selecting a different page to go to.  If we were to do a theatre production, and I'm acting the role of Shepard, that still wouldn't be me: that would be the role of Shepard I'm acting (even if it's complete improv, or off the cuff, I'm still acting the role of that character.)

There is no such thing as "me (player) changing" by "events in the game changing Shepard."  Sure, a story can teach me something, and I can experience catharsis by some dramatic scenes.  I might learn some philosophy.  But other than that, nope.  I'm still me, as are fictional characters.

I don't know what your Deity Figure means.

Modifié par smudboy, 15 février 2010 - 08:51 .

[Knoll Argonar]

Then you just missed the whole point of the game letting you BE Shepard.



Can't continue this. Differents points of view of a same concept.

[apk117]

Amen.

[smudboy]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

So you think that if it doesn't appear in the main plot, it doesn't count.

Cool.

Quoting

So your idea of him being a non-flat (round, etc.) character is: he previously dislikes synthetics, and he destroyed Virmire?

No, I consider myself round because what happened during ME2 changed my point of view and, therefore, my choices compared to what I believed in ME1. That's character progresion, you know.

All your plot twist and fan fiction is great, but how do you really want the game to show that your Shepard (you) have changed?

True that maybe the fact that your level of Paragon or Renegade level lets you access some choices or not may be something to talk, but oh well.

PD: Sorry, i'm spanish, English vocabulary limitations everywhere xD

EDIT:

Agreed with Chained_Creator. Shepard is your Avatar in the game. Therefore, if you change, he changes to. If ME3 forced you to play as something that is not yourself, Mass Effect can go to Hell. I'm living the adventure, not watching someone living it.

Your thoughts are not Shepard's thoughts.  Your point of view may change, but not Shepards.  Shepard could've saved the Rachni and Eden Prime, and he could still be a Renegade character, even though you wanted to kill the Rachni, everyone on Eden Prime, as a Paragon.  This is due to the nature of the game, and what you chose.  You can have varying opinions on how you played the game.  Players do this because they want to see all the options.

Where is this character progression (you really meant to say development)?  Character development occurs to a dynamic character, who changes on a number of levels.  This is usually in a psychological or philosophical way.  True, in ME, you can change from Renegade to Paragon, and vice versa, but not for long, as the game limits you to being pure (there is no "purple" or in between social path.)  A change in the character, called an arc, has to occur.  The character must be faced with a conflict, they must deal with that conflict in some way, and grow from it.  In ME2, this does not happen to the Shepard character.

(And no, being resurrected is not character development.)

Well obviously, I want Shepard to grow as a character!  Imagine if those side quests (recruitment/loyalty) actually changed Shepard for the better/worse, as well as the main plot.  For example, we could've made the Legion story a resolution to ME1: Legion is popular because he sheds light on the culture of the Geth, which was our main opposing force of ME1.  This could've cleaned up the continuity issues, his hatred of AI, and how he sees Legion as more than just a squad mate: but actually as a friend.  Make Shepard be faced with a life and death or moral/personal dilemma, like his past (based on what you selected), and whatever that happened changed him personally and permanently.  That that change, gave him more resolve, more motivation, more something, to get the job done.  ME2's goal just sounds like a shopping list: make it personal.  A better relationship with his crew (and not the whole loyalty system.  Hence, why Garrus and Tali is so popular, as their stories were the most personal). better understanding of the Protheans and Collectors, all neatly tied into the main plot.  Imagine if it made him grow as a person more, be more ruthless/nice, deal with his past, and not just via the P/R system.  Shepard has to be challenged more, more tough, more strong, more courageous, to deal with the impending doom of humanity.  Shepard has to be personally involved in his mission: he can't be static.  So put him on a mini-suicide missions (foreshadowing), that test his resolve, his ability to lead, his romances, his way to talk to others, his ability to protect or sacrifice others, etc...

One wonderful thing would've been redemption: if you played as a Renegade, to resolve those issues and seek the forgiveness of aliens, etc.

The whole recruitment/loyalty system simplifies all the beautiful conflicts that could've happened along this route.  Save Thane and Samara's loyalty mission, each recruitment and loyalty mission is cookie-cutter identical.  Unfortunately, none tie into the main plot.

Anyway, what I really want is character development for Shepard, and a main plot that gives us reason why Shepard is here.

[Sassymcgee]

I actually disagree. I'd go into why, but any amount of reason in a person will be able to fill in that. Reasonable also is your own post, but those who will parrot either side most likely will be of zero reason, so I don't mind leaving them without justification.

[Knoll Argonar]

Different points of view of the same concept.



Period.

[Chewbacca99]

smudboy wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

So you think that if it doesn't appear in the main plot, it doesn't count.

Cool.

Quoting

So your idea of him being a non-flat (round, etc.) character is: he previously dislikes synthetics, and he destroyed Virmire?

No, I consider myself round because what happened during ME2 changed my point of view and, therefore, my choices compared to what I believed in ME1. That's character progresion, you know.

All your plot twist and fan fiction is great, but how do you really want the game to show that your Shepard (you) have changed?

True that maybe the fact that your level of Paragon or Renegade level lets you access some choices or not may be something to talk, but oh well.

PD: Sorry, i'm spanish, English vocabulary limitations everywhere xD

EDIT:

Agreed with Chained_Creator. Shepard is your Avatar in the game. Therefore, if you change, he changes to. If ME3 forced you to play as something that is not yourself, Mass Effect can go to Hell. I'm living the adventure, not watching someone living it.

Your thoughts are not Shepard's thoughts.  Your point of view may change, but not Shepards.  Shepard could've saved the Rachni and Eden Prime, and he could still be a Renegade character, even though you wanted to kill the Rachni, everyone on Eden Prime, as a Paragon.  This is due to the nature of the game, and what you chose.  You can have varying opinions on how you played the game.  Players do this because they want to see all the options.

Where is this character progression (you really meant to say development)?  Character development occurs to a dynamic character, who changes on a number of levels.  This is usually in a psychological or philosophical way.  True, in ME, you can change from Renegade to Paragon, and vice versa, but not for long, as the game limits you to being pure (there is no "purple" or in between social path.)  A change in the character, called an arc, has to occur.  The character must be faced with a conflict, they must deal with that conflict in some way, and grow from it.  In ME2, this does not happen to the Shepard character.

(And no, being resurrected is not character development.)

Well obviously, I want Shepard to grow as a character!  Imagine if those side quests (recruitment/loyalty) actually changed Shepard for the better/worse, as well as the main plot.  For example, we could've made the Legion story a resolution to ME1: Legion is popular because he sheds light on the culture of the Geth, which was our main opposing force of ME1.  This could've cleaned up the continuity issues, his hatred of AI, and how he sees Legion as more than just a squad mate: but actually as a friend.  Make Shepard be faced with a life and death or moral/personal dilemma, like his past (based on what you selected), and whatever that happened changed him personally and permanently.  That that change, gave him more resolve, more motivation, more something, to get the job done.  ME2's goal just sounds like a shopping list: make it personal.  A better relationship with his crew (and not the whole loyalty system.  Hence, why Garrus and Tali is so popular, as their stories were the most personal). better understanding of the Protheans and Collectors, all neatly tied into the main plot.  Imagine if it made him grow as a person more, be more ruthless/nice, deal with his past, and not just via the P/R system.  Shepard has to be challenged more, more tough, more strong, more courageous, to deal with the impending doom of humanity.  Shepard has to be personally involved in his mission: he can't be static.  So put him on a mini-suicide missions (foreshadowing), that test his resolve, his ability to lead, his romances, his way to talk to others, his ability to protect or sacrifice others, etc...

One wonderful thing would've been redemption: if you played as a Renegade, to resolve those issues and seek the forgiveness of aliens, etc.

The whole recruitment/loyalty system simplifies all the beautiful conflicts that could've happened along this route.  Save Thane and Samara's loyalty mission, each recruitment and loyalty mission is cookie-cutter identical.  Unfortunately, none tie into the main plot.

Anyway, what I really want is character development for Shepard, and a main plot that gives us reason why Shepard is here.

URM.... had to jump in here.  WOW, you are spending a lot of time and thought on something that you didn't think was that great (I get it - you thought it could be better, did you read the nytimes review perchance?)  In any case please look up the definition of a ROLE playing game.  While Bioware chose to have a singular character - Shepard - be your avatar for ME, because it is a role playing game, the character reacts as you command him/her to do. Sure, the responses are imposed by the writers, but which role playing game is this not the case?  What do you think of the character arc of the protagonist in Dragon Age: Origins, or any of the FF games?  How would you propose the character arc differ between a purely paragon Shepard, or a renegade one?  Or somewhere inbetween.  If the creators were to impose a character arc on Shepard (like the redemption one you recommend above), you can be sure some people would be pissed - that's not how I envisioned my Shepard turning out, he's an unabashed alien hater!  That is the beauty of the role playing game construct - you impose your own vision of the protagonist on your avatar.  If you want character arc, then play something like Dreamfall or even Grand Theft Auto.

Anyway, I am not arguing the merits of whether ME2 is great or not (I personally really enjoyed it, which is the yardstick I use to judge games.  Could it have been better?  Sure).  I just take issue with your stance that Shepard does not have an arc.  In any case, from your responses above, I can see that you are holding fast to your point of view - all the more power to you.  Illustrates the futility of trying to convince anyone on a forum...

[Knoll Argonar]

agreed with yjchew.



I consider Shepard as my avatar, smudboy does not.



End of story.

[Joey813]

I can't find the right words to convey the message of how much I appreciate the material that Bioware develops. Also, I am impressed by the amount of attention Bioware developers give to their fan base. All I can say is bravo, Bioware. I'll continue my support of your company by purchasing your products and recommending them to my family,friends, and peers.

[yllubyzzarc]

ME2 was the best game I have played this year!!!!!!!!!!! and if the DLC is good ME2 will remain that way for the rest of this year and on.
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[smudboy]

yjchew wrote...

URM.... had to jump in here.  WOW, you are spending a lot of time and thought on something that you didn't think was that great (I get it - you thought it could be better, did you read the nytimes review perchance?)  In any case please look up the definition of a ROLE playing game.  While Bioware chose to have a singular character - Shepard - be your avatar for ME, because it is a role playing game, the character reacts as you command him/her to do. Sure, the responses are imposed by the writers, but which role playing game is this not the case?  What do you think of the character arc of the protagonist in Dragon Age: Origins, or any of the FF games?  How would you propose the character arc differ between a purely paragon Shepard, or a renegade one?  Or somewhere inbetween.  If the creators were to impose a character arc on Shepard (like the redemption one you recommend above), you can be sure some people would be pissed - that's not how I envisioned my Shepard turning out, he's an unabashed alien hater!  That is the beauty of the role playing game construct - you impose your own vision of the protagonist on your avatar.  If you want character arc, then play something like Dreamfall or even Grand Theft Auto.

Anyway, I am not arguing the merits of whether ME2 is great or not (I personally really enjoyed it, which is the yardstick I use to judge games.  Could it have been better?  Sure).  I just take issue with your stance that Shepard does not have an arc.  In any case, from your responses above, I can see that you are holding fast to your point of view - all the more power to you.  Illustrates the futility of trying to convince anyone on a forum...

I just read the nytimes review.  Thanks.

Let me re-iterate, that I was trying to explain that Shepard is a flat/static character, as most video game characters are, whereas others used the "Shepard-avatar" argument, that the player can make him as flat, round or dynamic as one wishes, because we are that character.  I would agree, if those choices that make him as such are part of one of the many stories in ME2, and develop Shepard as a character.  But they really don't.

Whether you call Shepard an avatar or character, he's still just a "remote control car."  We might be able to identity with him/her more based on his paint job (face, hair, gender, etc.), but we're still just pushing that car along.  (The same way we push anyone along in any game we're playing.)  Others also call it a "character driven plot", which is really the same argument, since we're the one advancing it.  In no way is it (traditionally) as such, since we don't have an inner-monologue of Shepard-thoughts and motivations to construct a plot from.  It would be a completely different story.

If Shepard did more than just react, than he'd have the opportunity to grow and change.  This is only shown by accumulating P/R points.  But P/R points do not a character development make.  It's just BioWare's system of scoring your choices and allowing for certain social options.  For example, if Shepard gets emotional, apologizes over something important, breaks down (flight or fight), loses it, over a choice you tell them to do, then he'd be a more involved, and fleshed out person.  Jennifer Hale/Mark Meer's performance would be more than just the "stoic straight-guy/gal who's either good/bad."  Shepard would have newfound motivations based on your choices, a few chips on their shoulder, and perhaps a new sense of perspective and courage that they didn't have before. (Again, the easy method is to have Shepard succumb to his Prothean visions, an element of Shepard that I thought was integral to Shepard as a character, which had 0 part of ME2.)

There is nothing wrong with character arcs. In fact, arcs are a good way of plotting character development.  For example, if Shepard wasn't resurrected, we could've had a grand tale of revenge from (dun dun dun), Liara, or whomever.  (Heck ,we could've had a grand tale of revenge from Shepard...) But he's given a second chance at life.  What does he/she do with it?  Aside from completling his/her mission, really nothing noteworthy that we can learn about him/her as a character.  I can only hope in ME3 that this is a viable option for Joker/other characters, since Shepard can die.

[TeaCokeProphet]

I agree. But Bioware NEEDS the criticism to push against the limits of our expectations for the next one. If these people weren't complaining, what would they know what to fix?

[yllubyzzarc]

yjchew wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

So you think that if it doesn't appear in the main plot, it doesn't count.

Cool.

Quoting

So your idea of him being a non-flat (round, etc.) character is: he previously dislikes synthetics, and he destroyed Virmire?

No, I consider myself round because what happened during ME2 changed my point of view and, therefore, my choices compared to what I believed in ME1. That's character progresion, you know.

All your plot twist and fan fiction is great, but how do you really want the game to show that your Shepard (you) have changed?

True that maybe the fact that your level of Paragon or Renegade level lets you access some choices or not may be something to talk, but oh well.

PD: Sorry, i'm spanish, English vocabulary limitations everywhere xD

EDIT:

Agreed with Chained_Creator. Shepard is your Avatar in the game. Therefore, if you change, he changes to. If ME3 forced you to play as something that is not yourself, Mass Effect can go to Hell. I'm living the adventure, not watching someone living it.

Your thoughts are not Shepard's thoughts.  Your point of view may change, but not Shepards.  Shepard could've saved the Rachni and Eden Prime, and he could still be a Renegade character, even though you wanted to kill the Rachni, everyone on Eden Prime, as a Paragon.  This is due to the nature of the game, and what you chose.  You can have varying opinions on how you played the game.  Players do this because they want to see all the options.

Where is this character progression (you really meant to say development)?  Character development occurs to a dynamic character, who changes on a number of levels.  This is usually in a psychological or philosophical way.  True, in ME, you can change from Renegade to Paragon, and vice versa, but not for long, as the game limits you to being pure (there is no "purple" or in between social path.)  A change in the character, called an arc, has to occur.  The character must be faced with a conflict, they must deal with that conflict in some way, and grow from it.  In ME2, this does not happen to the Shepard character.

(And no, being resurrected is not character development.)

Well obviously, I want Shepard to grow as a character!  Imagine if those side quests (recruitment/loyalty) actually changed Shepard for the better/worse, as well as the main plot.  For example, we could've made the Legion story a resolution to ME1: Legion is popular because he sheds light on the culture of the Geth, which was our main opposing force of ME1.  This could've cleaned up the continuity issues, his hatred of AI, and how he sees Legion as more than just a squad mate: but actually as a friend.  Make Shepard be faced with a life and death or moral/personal dilemma, like his past (based on what you selected), and whatever that happened changed him personally and permanently.  That that change, gave him more resolve, more motivation, more something, to get the job done.  ME2's goal just sounds like a shopping list: make it personal.  A better relationship with his crew (and not the whole loyalty system.  Hence, why Garrus and Tali is so popular, as their stories were the most personal). better understanding of the Protheans and Collectors, all neatly tied into the main plot.  Imagine if it made him grow as a person more, be more ruthless/nice, deal with his past, and not just via the P/R system.  Shepard has to be challenged more, more tough, more strong, more courageous, to deal with the impending doom of humanity.  Shepard has to be personally involved in his mission: he can't be static.  So put him on a mini-suicide missions (foreshadowing), that test his resolve, his ability to lead, his romances, his way to talk to others, his ability to protect or sacrifice others, etc...

One wonderful thing would've been redemption: if you played as a Renegade, to resolve those issues and seek the forgiveness of aliens, etc.

The whole recruitment/loyalty system simplifies all the beautiful conflicts that could've happened along this route.  Save Thane and Samara's loyalty mission, each recruitment and loyalty mission is cookie-cutter identical.  Unfortunately, none tie into the main plot.

Anyway, what I really want is character development for Shepard, and a main plot that gives us reason why Shepard is here.

URM.... had to jump in here.  WOW, you are spending a lot of time and thought on something that you didn't think was that great (I get it - you thought it could be better, did you read the nytimes review perchance?)  In any case please look up the definition of a ROLE playing game.  While Bioware chose to have a singular character - Shepard - be your avatar for ME, because it is a role playing game, the character reacts as you command him/her to do. Sure, the responses are imposed by the writers, but which role playing game is this not the case?  What do you think of the character arc of the protagonist in Dragon Age: Origins, or any of the FF games?  How would you propose the character arc differ between a purely paragon Shepard, or a renegade one?  Or somewhere inbetween.  If the creators were to impose a character arc on Shepard (like the redemption one you recommend above), you can be sure some people would be pissed - that's not how I envisioned my Shepard turning out, he's an unabashed alien hater!  That is the beauty of the role playing game construct - you impose your own vision of the protagonist on your avatar.  If you want character arc, then play something like Dreamfall or even Grand Theft Auto.

Anyway, I am not arguing the merits of whether ME2 is great or not (I personally really enjoyed it, which is the yardstick I use to judge games.  Could it have been better?  Sure).  I just take issue with your stance that Shepard does not have an arc.  In any case, from your responses above, I can see that you are holding fast to your point of view - all the more power to you.  Illustrates the futility of trying to convince anyone on a forum...

I agree with you. For someone  who is so moved in his love/hate for ME2 has gone the extra mile to try to foce his POV on everyone,that  disagees.   How many times has he played this game?