41 réponses à ce sujet

[Highdragonslayer]

Character who can open locks and disarm traps, but doesn't do **** all when it comes to combat, and has a terrible accent.

Character who doesn't have a bad accent, is pretty decent in a fight( amazing compared the previous mentioned character) but can't open locks, or traps the main reason to have a rogue in your group.

[Addai]

I will generally leave Leliana in camp if it's a place where I have access, and then run through the area with her again after I'm done with to open the locks. It's tedious but it has to be done.  Most traps don't have much impact.  The one exception- that room with all the archers in the Brecilian ruins.  A tricky one.

This, until Zevran is leveled up enough to open locks. But it's one more reason that cunning rogue is my favorite class and build. As Flemeth says, do it yourself or hear about it for a decade or two.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 février 2010 - 04:43 .

[CybAnt1]

Neither Zevran or Leliana are very good rogues (by that, I mean, good at picking locks, removing traps, opening chests, stealth, and stealing) until you improve them into one. I can't remember exactly, but I think both of them had 1 or no points in device mastery when I found them, and only 1 skill rank in trap mastery.



As far as their combat paths, Zevran doesn't start out as a very good assassin, but can be made into one over time. (Maybe that's why he wasn't very good at killing you.) Boost his poison skill, boost his assassin talents, give him dueling so he can fight back what he can't kill instantly.



Likewise, although I initially tried to get Leliana to be good at hand-to-hand fighting, she seems just better suited by initial spec & otherwise to go the archery route, and once again can eventually end up a pretty good archer.



As far as their accents, well, all I can tell is Orlesians are basically French, and Antivans are basically ... Flemish? That one was harder to place. They both sound .... European.

[dkjestrup]

I think Bioware just sucks at min-maxing for this game lmao. No wonder they say that Nightmare is for genius tacticians: with their builds, it probably is.

[soteria]

I like Leliana's accent.

[Addai]

CybAnt1 wrote...

As far as their combat paths, Zevran doesn't start out as a very good assassin, but can be made into one over time. (Maybe that's why he wasn't very good at killing you.) Boost his poison skill, boost his assassin talents, give him dueling so he can fight back what he can't kill instantly.

Just give him some paralyze runes and/or auto-set your mage to paralyze his target.  Paralysis + Coup de Grace and Momentum= say good night, you filthy darkspawn.

He really doesn't need duelist.  The defensive boosts are nice, but you can usually give him some equipment to improve defense, and his dexterity is pretty high anyway.  Use those talent slots for assassin, DW, stealth, and Deft Hands if you want him to act as cunning rogue.  Usually I don't even bother putting any points into his 2nd specialization.

Zevran is also the better archer.  Don't be fooled by his lack of starting talents.  Archery is driven by dexterity and strength, not cunning.  All he needs is a good bow (which he comes equipped with, to start out) and Melee Archer when you get a chance to give him that.  I think Leliana is given archery talents to balance out the fact that she's a cunning rogue vs. a dex rogue and thus at a disadvantage with archery.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 février 2010 - 05:06 .

[SirOccam]

I like both accents. Especially Leliana's though... *drools a little bit*

[Addai]

I thought I'd illustrate something.  You may not be able to tell from the shot, but that is a Revenant and the poor dear has been paralyzed by a well-placed dagger.  Zevran is just showing off at this point, he's not even getting backstabs, but  I don't know as the Revenant even got one swing in before his demise.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 février 2010 - 05:29 .

[errant_knight]

They're only weak if you don't improve them. The PC starts out weak, too. You don't just get a character that's ready to go, building them is part of the game. It's tactical in multiple ways, your character tactic, building tactics, and battle plan. Nothing is handed to you on a plate in this game. Personally, I like that. It's much more challenging.

[highcastle]

Leliana is a scout-type rogue and Zev is a DPS-rogue. But both can be improved with some work. On plays where I don't have a PC rogue, I usually give Zev the two tomes of Physical Technique to get his device mastery up quick, and the first two points he gets on leveling are those, too. It's not so bad.

[ejoslin]

If anyone thinks a rogue is BAD, they don't know how to build a rogue. Zevran and Leliana can both be built to be massive damage in different ways. Zevran as a melee rogue will be more damage, but Leliana as an archer is devastating as well.

The reason to have a rogue in your party, aside from the utility, is they are the best single target damage in the game, can disable a mage before a fight begins (stealth up and use dirty fighting and then mage death or use arrow of slaying), and because of both of those, can change a very difficult fight into a cake walk.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 février 2010 - 03:08 .

[Sabriana]

Zevran as a melee rogue is devastating. He deals high damage and he seldom goes down. Give him good swords/daggers, and/ some good rings/belt/amulet (whichever your PC can afford), and he's unbeatable. The guy cut down a huge beast while the rest of us were busy being unconscious.

Leliana I'm not sure about. She keeps the camp-fire going in my games.

[maxernst]

I think rogues are weaker than the other classes in the early game, but they are huge damage-dealers later on. The problem is that there are too many routes to go, so you have to specialize. If you try to have a rogue who's good at stealth and poison and thieving and locks and traps, you're going to wind up with a weak build. I think it is fair to say that a rogue that's focussed completely on rogue-related skills will not work well in a game as combat-intensive as this one. I wish there were more quests you could get through on guile than there are, but that's never really been Bioware's house style.

[Aynslie]

Sabriana wrote...

Leliana I'm not sure about. She keeps the camp-fire going in my games.

LOL!  Yea and she feeds the dog....

Anyway, I definitely found Zevran to be a bad ass once you knew how to level rogues.  I always stealth him before entering a room so his first hit is crazy.  Also I think people underestimate the "Rogue" talents such as feint death etc.  Those are absolutely necessary for a rogue, at least a DW rogue, less necessary for an archer.  And since I am usually a rogue I don't worry about giving Zev deft hands.  

[ejoslin]

maxernst wrote...

I think rogues are weaker than the other classes in the early game, but they are huge damage-dealers later on. The problem is that there are too many routes to go, so you have to specialize. If you try to have a rogue who's good at stealth and poison and thieving and locks and traps, you're going to wind up with a weak build. I think it is fair to say that a rogue that's focussed completely on rogue-related skills will not work well in a game as combat-intensive as this one. I wish there were more quests you could get through on guile than there are, but that's never really been Bioware's house style.

Funny, i never have that problem, especially if it's a cunning rogue.  What people don't realize is that you don't need four levels of deft hands.  You need cunning = 60 + the first level of deft hands.  Or cunning = 50 + 2 levels of deft hands.  Stealth is helpful at level 4, so I always go for that.  Traps and poison -- level 1 is enough to use them, and have nothing to do with lock picking and stealth.  And disarming traps is deft hands, not trap laying.

Feign death, never.  Pointless.  Stealth at level 4 means you can drop aggro just as easily (have a tactic that activates combat stealth if your rogue's health drops below 90%).

Edit: Evade is a bad idea as well.  If you have your dex at a reasonable level (34 is good) then you're being missed most of the time anyway.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 février 2010 - 04:20 .

[SuperMedbh]

I've got a DW rogue right now, and we make a killer all rogue party now that we all have stealth 4. Lili scattershots, we pop out and kill and few things, then it's back into the shadows where we're all "silent as a nug...who's asleep".

Modifié par SuperMedbh, 15 février 2010 - 04:23 .

[Herr Uhl]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

...and has a terrible accent.

At least it's a genuine accent.

[Allison W]

Hey, I think her accent is cute.

Though admittedly I grabbed the respec mod just to drag her into dual-wielding so she could be my bodyguard.

EDIT: Also, doesn't Lethality let you use Cunning instead of Strength for bow damage, not just melee damage? I know its ginormous crit boost is melee-only.

Modifié par Allison W, 15 février 2010 - 04:30 .

[mousestalker]

It's funny, but I like both Zevran and Lelianna. Zevran makes an excellent DEX/STR dual wielder and Lelianna can be made (without respecs) into an excellent archer. It's certainly easier to optimize them than Oghren or Sten.

One of the best party configurations I've ever had was Morrigan shapeshifted into a spider and the PC Warden (rogue, ranger/duelist), Lelianna (ranger/bard) and Zevran (ranger/assassin) all with their spider pets out. No tank, no warriors and an insane amount of crowd control and glee provoking slaughter.

Plus, going for a walk through the market district in Denerim made me giggle.

The real problem with rogues is the almost total lack of variety in armour designs. You can either be a bondage cheerleader or a bondage cheerleader in a halter top.

Modifié par mousestalker, 15 février 2010 - 04:30 .

[Addai]

I thought I'd illustrate the durability of the rogue.  This is in the battle where I let our party get its asses kicked by Cauthrien (just love being able to call Anora a double-crossing b****!).  This is Zevran, the last one standing.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 février 2010 - 06:24 .

[Rolenka]

Bioware sucks at building characters in every game. NWN2, Mass Effect , you name it. The autolevel button is suicide.

http://social.biowar...m/project/1741/

[sylvanaerie]

I like playing rogues and usually go with a PC rogue but have been trying other classes too. I start with Leliana (putting points in her deft hands to max it and getting her cunning to 22 so I can get it to 4 if she is with me that long). When I get Zevran I switch to doing all the little side quests I can without doing much lockpicking/trap finding so he has a chance to get at least a little upgrade in the skill. I find both are pretty equal for DPS, but for some reason Zevran gets this Leroy complex and wants to go off to find more mobs on me (and no hes not on aggressive, not sure whats screwy with his AI). Leliana on ranged doesn't really go looking for trouble like he does but if shes IN range of anything aggressive its getting shot at even if its passable. I really like them both if I don't have a rogue PC and picking between the two is hard for me.

[CybAnt1]

Leliana I'm not sure about. She keeps the camp-fire going in my games.

I wish the bard specialization was deeper. It like the other specializations has only 4 talents. I can think of a lot of cool things my bard used to do in Bard's Tale, she could have a lot more interesting bard songs. 

I also gave her ranger as her second specialization. 

Basically, she served four purposes:
1) rogue utility (i.e. remove traps from the battlefield)
2) bard support
3) summon beastie in tough fight
4) fire arrows if not doing 1-3

Have her tactics set to be using Arrow of Slaying and Scattershot at the right moments, load her up with the right magic arrows, give her the right bow, and yes she can be quite deadly from afar. 

[Tula Tsunami]

My PC is the lock picking Rogue, Leliana is the Archer (Bard, Assassin), and poor Zev...camp fire warmer.

[_- Songlian -]

I've lost count of how many times I saved the battle with a rogue, either myself or Zevran, both dual wielders, except that he is usually equipped with a longsword/dagger, while I prefer the dagger/dagger combination. It's all about the speed for me. I wouldn't trade that for a greatsword no matter the benefits. If it takes me 5 seconds to swing a weapon, something is bad.



As far as Zevran not having lock-picking skills from the start, yes, I can see how that can be a bummer. I suppose they wanted to make the characters equal as far as benefits go for having them in your party.