115 réponses à ce sujet

[scrappydoo555]

I think most of you are being a but hard on Morinth. Imagine reaching puberty only to be told you have a genetic abnomality that means you will kill anyone you have sex with, then given the choice of total isolation from any other beings or death. Of course your going to run away. To top it all I doubt she wasn't always a murderous sociopath. I can quite imagine that at some point in her travels she fell in love or at least cared for someone enough to want to have sex with them, hoping she would be strong enough to resist sucking them dry only to kill them. I think the guilt and the realisation that she can never have a proper relationship turned her into a sociopath and the power she felt taking the life became too strong resist so she had to do it again. Fast forward a few hundred years and she becomes the person we see today. I'm not saying I would take her as a squad mate over her mother (I've only done that once) but I still think there is room for a bit of compasion for her.



I just don't think she was always a cold hearted killer I think she probably struggled with her abnormality for quite sometime before finally acepting what she is and making the most of it, even learning to enjoy the chase before the kill.



I'm sure alot of you would think differently about her if she used her powers to kill bad guys instead of innocents, but because it's an addiction and addictions are ultimately selfish she just goes for what she want's.

[scrappydoo555]

oops double post

Modifié par scrappydoo555, 15 février 2010 - 10:54 .

[soupbucket]

I personally think that Morinth is a pretty interesting character, one that didn't really get enough attention from BioWare. Like scrappydoo said, it's pretty unlikely that she was always a sociopath. She is told (at a pretty fragile age) that her society doesn't want her. Look at the situation from her perspective: she can live a cloistered life, ALONE, or run, and do whatever she wants. Judging by her personality (thought it may have been warped by her experiences), the former really isn't an option. So she runs, knowing that she is regarded as a twisted monster by her people. This knowledge causes her to turn to self-destructive behavior: the drugs, living for nothing but temporary emotional stimulation, and incredibly dysfunctional relationships. I feel like she's similar to Jack, with her extremely vulnerable core hidden under the layers of a constructed persona. I hope she's got a bigger role in ME3, and isn't just relegated to being a footnote.

That's just, like, my opinion, man.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Brienna_ wrote...
but I wanted to give Morinth a chance. Maybe her "disease" is something you might cure? Hell, Cerberus woke Shep from death.

You wanted to give a multitime offender a "chance?

Also if the disease can be cured, why hasn't it? as Samara said.. it can't be cured and I doubt Cerberus would waste their money trying to cure an asari disease.

As of now, there is no cure and Ardat-Yashi can choose to live in isolation or they can be like Morinth and go around killing hundreds if not thousands.

Sparing Morinth isn't the sympathetic choice... it's the incredibly naive and ignorant choice.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 16 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[Pauravi]

scrappydoo555 wrote...

I think most of you are being a but hard on Morinth. Imagine reaching puberty only to be told you have a genetic abnomality that means you will kill anyone you have sex with, then given the choice of total isolation from any other beings or death. Of course your going to run away.

Nobody is saying that Morinth didn't get a raw deal.  As Samara says, though, "she is a tragic figure.. but not a sympathetic one."

To top it all I doubt she wasn't always a murderous sociopath. I can quite imagine that at some point in her travels she fell in love or at least cared for someone enough to want to have sex with them, hoping she would be strong enough to resist sucking them dry only to kill them. I think the guilt and the realisation that she can never have a proper relationship turned her into a sociopath and the power she felt taking the life became too strong resist so she had to do it again.

Highly possible.  But does the fact that she is not responsible for her condition mean that she shouldn't be stopped?  A great many serial killers are mentally ill and/or had been abused horribly as children, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be locked away forever.

t I still think there is room for a bit of compasion for her.

I just don't think she was always a cold hearted killer I think she probably struggled with her abnormality for quite sometime before finally acepting what she is and making the most of it, even learning to enjoy the chase before the kill.

But that is exactly what makes her dangerous... the fact that she "makes the most of" her condition.
Letting her roam free is simply too dangerous.  Not stopping her when you
have the opportunity means that the blood of everyone she
kills is on your hands.  At this point it is a guarantee that she will kill more people if you let her go.  The fact that she is not responsible for her condition is irrelevant at this point.  It changes the reason you need to do what you do, but not the fact that you should do it.

I understand that, at the start, she perhaps only wanted to be free like a normal person and that she may not have started out as a sociopathic killer.  The tragedy of it, though, is that she cannot, and never would have been capable of having a normal life.  Her condition guaranteed that, and she knew it.  Instead of understanding that and resigning herself to solitude, she chose to escape and chose to kill people.

So yes, her condition is sad and entirely not her fault, but this doesn't change the fact that it has turned her callous, selfish, and evil.

[Pauravi]

soupbucket wrote...

This knowledge causes her to turn to self-destructive behavior: the drugs, living for nothing but temporary emotional stimulation, and incredibly dysfunctional relationships.

The problem, though, is that her behavior isn't just self-destructive, and her relationships aren't just dysfunctional.
Her behavior is sociopathic  and her relationships are homicidal as a matter of course.

That's just, like, my opinion, man.

The dude abides

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Morinth is really just the asari equivalent to the vampire of human mythology, she was bringing up the controversy of "What if there was a sapient being that has to feed on other sapients for survival?".



Either way, I say destroy such a being. Even if it is not its choice for being what it is, there is a limit to tolerance and that limit is survival.

[Fishy]

Ramikadyc wrote...

Morinth tries to kill you. Twice. To me, taking someone who actively tries to kill you is not in agreement with even a Reneshep, who though wants to get the job done, still wants to live

How does she try to kill you twice? Once maybe on the loyalty mission, but when else? Just because she WANTS to kill me doesn't mean she CAN kill me, and it seemed like she knew that after recruiting her, which is where her loyalty to you comes in. Some might disagree, but after some conversations with Morinth, she does have some "humanity," she's just a person who became what her curse made her--she didn't ask to be a Ardat-Yakshi, and the choice between joining the asari equivalent to a nunery or accepting death isn't a fair choice at all. Yes, she's got evil urges and has performed evil deeds, yes she has an insatiable addiction to the narcotic effect of melding and the power that comes with it, but that's who she is.

Now if you don't agree with that, good luck finding something about what I'm about to say to agree with. I find Samara to be totally and utterly irresponsible. She had THREE children who were Ardat-Yakshi. THREE. Maybe one was a mistake, and its worth trying for a second. But then the second had the same curse. Still, she went for a THIRD, and she even admits that it might stem from them being purebloods, yet she continued to meld with another asari, so you can't justify it as her maternal choice to have more children, because she had the option to meld with another species to try to prevent it.

That's just my opinion, though. And that's the opinion I take with me on some playthroughs.

So you're willing to recruit a cold-blooded murderer?She just killed a n innocent young woman .. She's a monster.

Modifié par Suprez30, 16 février 2010 - 12:30 .

[GothamLord]

Its interesting how people complain that Morinth is a murderer and doesnt deserve a chance for redemption yet somehow the fact that Thane who is a known assassin doesn't seem to be a problem. I guess if Morinth was dying from her condition and wanted to atone it'd be okay then.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Suprez30 wrote...

Ramikadyc wrote...

Morinth tries to kill you. Twice. To me, taking someone who actively tries to kill you is not in agreement with even a Reneshep, who though wants to get the job done, still wants to live

How does she try to kill you twice? Once maybe on the loyalty mission, but when else? Just because she WANTS to kill me doesn't mean she CAN kill me, and it seemed like she knew that after recruiting her, which is where her loyalty to you comes in. Some might disagree, but after some conversations with Morinth, she does have some "humanity," she's just a person who became what her curse made her--she didn't ask to be a Ardat-Yakshi, and the choice between joining the asari equivalent to a nunery or accepting death isn't a fair choice at all. Yes, she's got evil urges and has performed evil deeds, yes she has an insatiable addiction to the narcotic effect of melding and the power that comes with it, but that's who she is.

Now if you don't agree with that, good luck finding something about what I'm about to say to agree with. I find Samara to be totally and utterly irresponsible. She had THREE children who were Ardat-Yakshi. THREE. Maybe one was a mistake, and its worth trying for a second. But then the second had the same curse. Still, she went for a THIRD, and she even admits that it might stem from them being purebloods, yet she continued to meld with another asari, so you can't justify it as her maternal choice to have more children, because she had the option to meld with another species to try to prevent it.

That's just my opinion, though. And that's the opinion I take with me on some playthroughs.

So you're willing to recruit a cold-blooded murderer?She just killed a n innocent young woman .. She's a monster.

The Morinth fanatics usually dismiss this w/ "So was Zaaed and Samara!".

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

GothamLord wrote...
Its interesting how people complain that Morinth is a murderer and doesnt deserve a chance for redemption yet somehow the fact that Thane who is a known assassin doesn't seem to be a problem. I guess if Morinth was dying from her condition and wanted to atone it'd be okay then.

Its unknown who Thane has killed and why, the people we do know he has killed were criminals and slavers. 

So all we know, he killed legitimately "bad" people, even so at least he was doing so out of a profession and not out of pleasure. 

You can't compare a contract killer with a serial killer/sexual predator.

[SteelEagleShane]

scrappydoo555 wrote...

I think most of you are being a but hard on Morinth. Imagine reaching puberty only to be told you have a genetic abnomality that means you will kill anyone you have sex with, then given the choice of total isolation from any other beings or death. Of course your going to run away. To top it all I doubt she wasn't always a murderous sociopath. I can quite imagine that at some point in her travels she fell in love or at least cared for someone enough to want to have sex with them, hoping she would be strong enough to resist sucking them dry only to kill them. I think the guilt and the realisation that she can never have a proper relationship turned her into a sociopath and the power she felt taking the life became too strong resist so she had to do it again. Fast forward a few hundred years and she becomes the person we see today. I'm not saying I would take her as a squad mate over her mother (I've only done that once) but I still think there is room for a bit of compasion for her.

I just don't think she was always a cold hearted killer I think she probably struggled with her abnormality for quite sometime before finally acepting what she is and making the most of it, even learning to enjoy the chase before the kill.

I'm sure alot of you would think differently about her if she used her powers to kill bad guys instead of innocents, but because it's an addiction and addictions are ultimately selfish she just goes for what she want's.

You can have compassion and still want to see that person killed hardcore. I can agree with everything you've said and still not even question taking Samara over her. It isn't about compassion; it is about protection. As long as she lives, people will die due to her choices. And now that it is between her and Samara, it makes the choice even easier.

I also think some people see a Renegade Shepard as an evil sociopath. No, he just does anything to get the job done. Taking Morinth over Samara, thereby killing Samara, is for a selfish/evil Shepard. Feel fine to play that way, but in all the times I've played as a Renegade Shepard, I've never even had to rethink this decision.

[GothamLord]

Murder is murder. Doesn't matter on if it was for payment or pleasure. If Morinth was more like Dexter from the TV/Books and chose to use her addiction to kill bad people it would be okay?

[Lmaoboat]

GothamLord wrote...

Its interesting how people complain that Morinth is a murderer and doesnt deserve a chance for redemption yet somehow the fact that Thane who is a known assassin doesn't seem to be a problem. I guess if Morinth was dying from her condition and wanted to atone it'd be okay then.

Thane kills the same types of people you do because they're bad guys, not random civillians for the ****s and giggles.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

GothamLord wrote...

Murder is murder. Doesn't matter on if it was for payment or pleasure.

So what about when government agents are assigned to kill political targets? You're going to have to define what is murder first and even then explain why certain deaths made by what you recognize as authority are "righteous". I have no problem with who Samara kills, I have no problem with who I killed, I have no problem with who most of my crew has probably killed save Zaaed. Thane however, as far as I know has been hired to kill bad people that the galaxy is definitely a better place without.  

If Morinth was more like Dexter from the TV/Books and chose to use her addiction to kill bad people it would be okay?

Yes it would.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 16 février 2010 - 12:48 .

[Sainthood82]

Ramikadyc wrote...

It makes sense depending on what role you're playing. I like to take Morinth because of her Dominate. Story-wise, I take her because, depending on what kind of path I'm roleplaying, I find Samara pretentious--hell, if anyone is a Renegade, she flat-out tells you she'll kill you if she sees you after the mission. Why WOULDN'T you take Morinth after that?

2 Years after Mission

Shepard: Hi Samara, it's been awhile!

Samara: My code dictates Shepard that you mus die.

Shepard: Oh, ok then.

*Shepard Stealth Sniper Shot crit Samara for 100% the lifebar*
*Samara dies*

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

SteelEagleShane wrote...
I also think some people see a Renegade Shepard as an evil sociopath. No, he just does anything to get the job done.

Not true, some of the renegade options don't even really accomplish anything except for some personal taste for violence, like encouraging Jack to kill after her Loyalty mission and to continue to kill whomever she dislikes. In ME1 the Renegade was pragmatic but in ME2 going straight Renegade has made him do some entirely ruthless and sociopathic things.

Taking Morinth over Samara, thereby killing Samara, is for a selfish/evil Shepard. Feel fine to play that way, but in all the times I've played as a Renegade Shepard, I've never even had to rethink this decision.

I agree with you on this however, choosing Morinth is just being chaotic stupid.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Sainthood82 wrote...

Ramikadyc wrote...

It makes sense depending on what role you're playing. I like to take Morinth because of her Dominate. Story-wise, I take her because, depending on what kind of path I'm roleplaying, I find Samara pretentious--hell, if anyone is a Renegade, she flat-out tells you she'll kill you if she sees you after the mission. Why WOULDN'T you take Morinth after that?

2 Years after Mission

Shepard: Hi Samara, it's been awhile!

Samara: My code dictates Shepard that you mus die.

Shepard: Oh, ok then.

*Shepard Stealth Sniper Shot crit Samara for 100% the lifebar*
*Samara dies*

Exactly, even if you're a renegade you're not a coward. If Samara says she must kill you then simply defend yourself, besides Samara doesn't even seem the type that would want to do it silently or when you're unaware. She seems like she would go right up to your face and say "Prepare yourself".

[SteelEagleShane]

GothamLord wrote...

Murder is murder. Doesn't matter on if it was for payment or pleasure. If Morinth was more like Dexter from the TV/Books and chose to use her addiction to kill bad people it would be okay?

Yes.
This isn't a saturday morning cartoon and you can't shy away from useful tool if the tool has been swimming in bad blood. Unless you are saying there is absolutely no difference between killing a mercenary/gang member/other assorted villain and an innocent, I don't see your point. That is like saying that Shepard and the Green River Killer are the same.

[GothamLord]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Murder is murder. Doesn't matter on if it was for payment or pleasure.

So what about when government agents are assigned to kill political targets? You're going to have to define what is murder first and even then explain why certain deaths made by what you recognize as authority are "righteous". I have no problem with who Samara kills, I have no problem with who I killed, I have no problem with who most of my crew has probably killed save Zaaed. Thane however, as far as I know has been hired to kill bad people that the galaxy is definitely a better place without.   If Morinth was more like Dexter from the TV/Books and chose to use her addiction to kill bad people it would be okay?

Morinth didnt have a "Harry" figure to channel her murderous addiction.  We can argue then that her condition is not entirely her own fault. Giving her a "code" to live by could help her refocus her need to kill. Shepard is powerful enough to resist her advances. Its certaily possible for her to see him as a figure to follow if he proposed a code for her. I also highly doubt Thane only killed bad people.  Good people dont normally hire assassins. Bad people hire assassins to kill either other bad people or good people that get in their way.   

Modifié par GothamLord, 16 février 2010 - 12:49 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

I also highly doubt Thane only killed bad people. Good people dont normally hire assassins.

Maybe so, we don't know enough about the Hanar though. From the little I do know, the Hanar problem use the assassins in the same way the Salarians use their STG and the Council their Spectres, to handle the tasks the Hanar can't physically handle offworld. Drell assassins may be used to kill political enemies or criminal organization leaders.

Who is to say? I'm leaning on the "Thane kills bad people" side, but w/e. Still not the same as Morinth, who kills whoever she is attracted to or hungers for.

Given Morinth's obvious hate for "authority" and "rules" it is unlikely she'll live by any code and if so, for long. Morinth is the perfect example of a satanist.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 16 février 2010 - 12:52 .

[Conway044]

Ramikadyc wrote...

It makes sense depending on what role you're playing. I like to take Morinth because of her Dominate. Story-wise, I take her because, depending on what kind of path I'm roleplaying, I find Samara pretentious--hell, if anyone is a Renegade, she flat-out tells you she'll kill you if she sees you after the mission. Why WOULDN'T you take Morinth after that?

Because Morinth really WANTS to kill you and Samara tells you that if she runs into you again after her oath is lifted she would probably be FORCED to kill you.  Samara can't betray you during the mission as she is bound by her oath of fealty sworn on the Justicar Code.  Why would you not keep one of the most loyal squad members?  Especially when the replacement is a serial killer who is addicted to burning out people's minds.

I also vote Chaotic-Stupid.

[Conway044]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I also highly doubt Thane only killed bad people. Good people dont normally hire assassins.

Maybe so, we don't know enough about the Hanar though. From the little I do know, the Hanar problem use the assassins in the same way the Salarians use their STG and the Council their Spectres, to handle the tasks the Hanar can't physically handle offworld. Drell assassins may be used to kill political enemies or criminal organization leaders.

Who is to say? I'm leaning on the "Thane kills bad people" side, but w/e. Still not the same as Morinth, who kills whoever she is attracted to or hungers for.

Given Morinth's obvious hate for "authority" and "rules" it is unlikely she'll live by any code and if so, for long. Morinth is the perfect example of a satanist.

Maybe Anarchist or Sociopath, I don't see Satanist. 

[GothamLord]

I wouldnt have used that word either but it techanically can work

sa·tan·ic  (s-tnk, s-) or sa·tan·i·cal (--kl)
adj.
1. Relating to or suggestive of Satan or evil.
2. Profoundly cruel or evil; fiendish

Modifié par GothamLord, 16 février 2010 - 01:08 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Conway044 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I also highly doubt Thane only killed bad people. Good people dont normally hire assassins.

Maybe so, we don't know enough about the Hanar though. From the little I do know, the Hanar problem use the assassins in the same way the Salarians use their STG and the Council their Spectres, to handle the tasks the Hanar can't physically handle offworld. Drell assassins may be used to kill political enemies or criminal organization leaders.

Who is to say? I'm leaning on the "Thane kills bad people" side, but w/e. Still not the same as Morinth, who kills whoever she is attracted to or hungers for.

Given Morinth's obvious hate for "authority" and "rules" it is unlikely she'll live by any code and if so, for long. Morinth is the perfect example of a satanist.

Maybe Anarchist or Sociopath, I don't see Satanist. 

Nah, out of all of the philosophies satanist fits her perfectly, it is the ultimate form of egoism and given she believes "It is my opinion, I don't care what anyone else has to say" it fits her like a glove.

Edit: Searching on wikipedia only gives me the religious form of satanism, I suppose the name of the philosophy has been changed among philosophers to avoid the negative connotation. 

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 16 février 2010 - 01:14 .