230 réponses à ce sujet

[Trauma3x]

1. Lando Calrissian debuted in 1980...just stating the facts "man" and I'm not the only kid growing up that felt that way about him. Sure there was ROJ were they sorta redeemed his character but by then most saw him as a traitor. I'm not hatin just stating fact.....but I see your point aswell......we can agree that Boomer from the original BSG was a good role model



I can't believe I've wasted time on this thread.....I have a better chance of BW changing their stance on the helmet toggle issue than changing some1 short sided views.

[Trauma3x]

1. Lando Calrissian debuted in 1980...just stating the facts "man" and I'm not the only kid growing up that felt that way about him. Sure there was ROJ were they sorta redeemed his character but by then most saw him as a traitor. I'm not hatin just stating fact.....but I see your point aswell......we can agree that Boomer from the original BSG was a good role model



I can't believe I've wasted time on this thread.....I have a better chance of BW changing their stance on the helmet toggle issue than changing some1 short sided views.

[Dethateer]

beserker7 wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Anderson is black, and he's one of the most badass characters in the game. What more could you possibly want?

This. Anderson should have been a squad mate in ME2. I was ticked he didn't have a bigger role in the game. The actor that plays him is great and was good in every movie he's been in. Sorry, I'm drawing a blank on his name at the moment.

Nah, if Anderson were a squaddie, he would have ripped the Collectors apart with his bare hands, leaving Shep to kill any traumatized survivors.

[vhatever]

Trauma3x wrote...

1. Lando Calrissian debuted in 1980...just stating the facts "man" and I'm not the only kid growing up that felt that way about him. Sure there was ROJ were they sorta redeemed his character but by then most saw him as a traitor. I'm not hatin just stating fact.....but I see your point aswell......we can agree that Boomer from the original BSG was a good role model

I can't believe I've wasted time on this thread.....I have a better chance of BW changing their stance on the helmet toggle issue than changing some1 short sided views.

all the characters in star wars have personality faults. Lando had to choose between his city and his friend. The choice was to betray many people or just one. And, let's face it, Han was sort of a scumbag that if he had to would have done the same. Lando also helped save all the main characters in cloud city, so they could save the universe. You didn't have to wait for ROJ for him to redeem hismelf.

[vhatever]

laggy forum.

Modifié par vhatever, 15 février 2010 - 07:49 .

[Tyfreaky]

MerinTB wrote...
[*]
Ok, first off  let's go through that list:
[*]Wonder Woman: Greek.  Amazon.  Actually made from clay.  Her skin tone may be white in most depictions, but she is more or less a golem made in the Greek god's image
[*]Supergirl, Superman: Aliens.  Kryptonians.  You can complain about Kryptonians having "caucasian" skin tones, but they are not human.  And you've OBVIOUSLY not paid any attention to any incarnations of Supergirl, or even Kara, since she died in 1985.  The current Kara, not so perfect at all.
[*]Superwoman: Who?  There have been "Superwoman"'s, but the most prevalent one is a super-villain (member of the CSA) so I don't get referencing such an obscure character (other than "Super") being in the name.
[*]Miss Marvel: You mean Ms. Marvel, Carol Danvers?  Uhm, she's not any "perfect" person.  She's an alcoholic, a militaristic person, and also part-Kree.  If you mean Mary Marvel, uhm, she's a kid.  Not perfect by far.  She even went really bad recently.
[*]Captain Marvel:  You say Marvel Universe but also first one.  First Captain Marvel was Billy Batson who said Shazam! - another kid, far from perfect.   The Marvel one, Mar-Vell, was a Kree soldier.  Yes, another alien, and he would be called a "pink" - a second class off-shoot of the race where the dominant Kree (the aristocrats, if you will) are blue skinned.  So the Marvel one was a minority from an alien race.
[*]Captain America:  Steve Rogers is meant to be the perfect American, sure.  Even a scrawny washout can be a patriot and serve his country (due to ethically questionable medical experiements, sure), but he's perfect physically (and, arguably, morally) but not mentally, he's not a super-genius.  He's probably your best example, though.  Actual human, actually blonde-haired and blue-eyed American, actually caucasian.  You struck one out of six so far - unless you take into account he was arrested for treason.
[*]Doc Savage: Know next to nothing about him, so I can't comment.

Most of your examples are OLD.  And fuzzy scary, as in you show what appears to be remarkably little knowledge of the subject matter you quote.  And from (and I'm saying this as a comic book geek) comic books.

Let me just toss a few non-white "perfect" people at you from comics since the 70's.

[*]Mr. Terrific: Michael Holt. By definition, a perfect man. Physically, mentally, emotionally.
[*]Triathlon: Delroy Garret.  Physcially "perfect" by having three-times the abilities of a normal man.  African American.
[*]Icon: while an alien, he takes on the form of an African American
[*]Batgirl: Cassandra Cain.  While not a perfect person, she was the DCU's "best" martial artist (arguably.)  And she was Asian American.
[*]Bronze Tiger: Another of the top martial-artists in the DCU.  Arguably can't be beaten in a fight (even by Batman when Batman prepared and cheated.)  African American.
[*]Steel: John Henry Irons.  African American. Genius.  And a very good person, too.
[*]Spawn: African American.  While a CIA agent, he's arguably a very good person trying to get out of a very bad situation.  And possibly the most (financially) successful independent  super-hero.
[*]Atom: Ryan Choi.  Chinese by birth.  Very smart, successful and young science professor.  And a good guy.
[*]Green Arrow: Conner Hawke.  A mix of Asian, African and European.  He was raised basically in a monastery, and was an expert shot with a bow as well as top tier martial artist.  In the philosopher's sense, he's very close to a "perfect" being.
[*]Jolt: Hallie Takahama.  One of the most heroic, honest, and earnest super-heroes to come out of Marvel.  Asian American.

Suprisingly you actually proved my point on almost every single one of those depictions without knowing it.
When I stated 'superment I ment genetically phsically and mentally superior and created to be that way. Not talking about HERIOC, or EVIL I'm saying the concept of the genetically created or engineered super person be it human or alien or magic.
Lets look at my original list shall we?:

• All the Kryptonian types: A bunch of superior aliens (especially clark) sent to earth. Now they have a red sun but these superior aliens somehow all are Caucasian looking?
• Wonder Women, created to be the perfect daughter and women: Caucasian. looking
• The (DC) Marvels: A magic word makes them into super men and women capable of feats generally only Kryptonians can do, and every single one of the Marvels chosen was white. But your do get one point there BLACK ADAM has the same powers and abilites and was Arab not caucasin.
• The Marvel Captain Marvel (Miss Marvel AKA Captain morvel): Was kree and genetically bred to be awesome.
• You already conceded Captain America

Now lets look at the ones taht I would count under your examples Icon, Mr. Terrific, Triathalon
Icon: Was specifically created by a black person under the label 'black' comic label MILESTONE, and almost all the herios in that universe were non caucasion So he's so so, now if a white writer had made him and he was under a 'regular' Label I would have given you him.
Mr. Terrific: You got me there. He's farcking awesome. But he was not 'made' to be perfect (though he is) he just happened to come out that way. He was not the product of 'eugenics' either magical or science related. But I will give you him.
Triathalon: Same thing. Never heard of him though he sounds cool. Wont give you him.

So in your examples YOU HAVE one example of the 'perfect black and he was not specifically made or altered to be that way. And one example of the a perfect Arab made that way by magic. I'm not counting Icon for a variety of reasons since he was made specifically to counter the exact phenomina Im talkinga about.

My whole point is, IN gneral, when people try to create the 'perfect' person that person even if not human or magically created somehow almost invariably ends up white.

[Dethateer]

So... you're basically saying black people are being discriminated against because the creators of those characters wanted to make them not black?

[Noktarn]

Why didn't they model Denzel or Will Smith?



The doods got cheek acne or something that's my only quibble with him.



Where's Mac from Predator? He totally shoulda been the "Zhaeed" character.



"They'll come back again. And when he does I'm gonna cut your name right into him... "

[Tyfreaky]

Oh by the way:

There use to be a Superwomen, and a super horse and a super cat, and a super dog. They all use to help Superman and Super Boy out from time to time.

This was way back in the 60s, look em up in a wiki sometimes... it gets really weird. Why do you think they retcon the DC universe every other year?
Superwomen
Comet the Super horse
Beepo the Super Monekey
Streaky the Super Cat
Krypto

Modifié par Tyfreaky, 15 février 2010 - 08:19 .

[newcomplex]

Personally, I think the fact that Jacob was black completely ruined his character, and made him the worst companion in the game.

Now before you guys hang me for being a Nazi, let me explain.   

No, I don't hate him simply for being black, but the fact that he was black caused irreparable damage to his character design.    It seems Bioware was so bent on trying to not offend anyone, or draw any rascist archetypes, while at the same time, keeping him charactersistically black, that they failed to develop him as a character, only as a "perfect black sidekick".     Which is kind of racist in its own right, but its not overtly racist, and I doubt it was intentional.     And I don't fault them for having subliminal biases.    

If he was white, Bioware would probably just ignore race and make him into a random, likeable character.    Hell, Zaeed is middle eastern, but because he is still white, Bioware felt free to make him into his own character rather then the "perfect middle eastern".     Each alien in the game is done entirely to portray a unique character.    Apparently, we can't do that with black people.

Jacob is.

Loyal, but independent.
Passionate, but not a womanizer
Heroic, but not irrational
Intelligent, but not too much.
Drinks, but not an alcoholic.
Eloquent, but still an everyman.
Determined, but not obssessed.
Self Conscious, but not Self Centered.

Yet despite all these exceptional qualities, he remains your sidekick throughout the entire game.    Even in the final mission, he has no role where he doesn't die, but can fill every single ****ing role.

You couldn't possible create a more boring character then that.     

Modifié par newcomplex, 15 février 2010 - 08:03 .

[phimseto]

Noktarn wrote...

Why didn't they model Denzel or Will Smith?

The doods got cheek acne or something that's my only quibble with him.

Where's Mac from Predator? He totally shoulda been the "Zhaeed" character.

"They'll come back again. And when he does I'm gonna cut your name right into him... "

That's the great Bill Duke.  That guy should definitely do some voice work.  Much as Halo ODST went all-Firefly, Bioware needs to make a game that has the crew from Predator. 

"Hey Billy, so I say to my girlfriend..."

[jacksmedula1]

newcomplex wrote...

Personally, I think the fact that Jacob was black completely ruined his character, and made him the worst companion in the game.

Now before you guys hang me for being a Nazi, let me explain.   

No, I don't hate him simply for being black, but the fact that he was black caused irreparable damage to his character design.    It seems Bioware was so bent on trying to not offend anyone, or draw any rascist archetypes, while at the same time, keeping him charactersistically black, that they failed to develop him as a character, only as a "perfect black sidekick".     Which is kind of racist in its own right, but its not overtly racist, and I doubt it was intentional.     And I don't fault them for having subliminal biases.    

If he was white, Bioware would probably just ignore race and make him into a random, likeable character.    Hell, Zaeed is middle eastern, but because he is still white, Bioware felt free to make him into his own character rather then the "perfect middle eastern".     Each alien in the game is done entirely to portray a unique character.    Apparently, we can't do that with black people.

Jacob is.

Loyal, but independent.
Passionate, but not a womanizer
Heroic, but not irrational
Intelligent, but not too much.
Drinks, but not an alcoholic.
Eloquent, but still an everyman.
Determined, but not obssessed.
Self Conscious, but not Self Centered.

Yet despite all these exceptional qualities, he remains your sidekick throughout the entire game.    Even in the final mission, he has no role where he doesn't die, but can fill every single ****ing role.

You couldn't possible create a more boring character then that.     

Well said... This is the best description of Jacob I've seen yet... and exactly why he is completely forgettable.  

[Arctic303]

T1l wrote...

"SHEPARD WE BE CLINKIN THA CRYSTAAAAL IN THA SYTADEL WEN DIS IS OVA"

Yeaaahhh... it was an awkward stereotype moment.

Hahah, they might as well use Jacob from GTA IV

[GenkiZer0]

@ New complex I won't say racist, I think they are too Politically correct. b/c any thing you make him would be seen by someone as offensive. They should concentrate on developing characters not plaing to insecure ppl out there.



No matter where you go on earth the sky is always blue, fire is always hot as ice is always cold and people will be people.



Everything good is in all cultures and everything bad is in all cultures.

[JamesDBacon]

I like Jacob, a lot. He's honorable, well spoken, dutiful, likable, and still exemplifies behaviors indicative of his culture. He is a black man, and NOT the black everyman. Like him for who he is, don't hate him for what he isn't. He isn't a scientist, no, but he is extremely intelligent. He's empathetic, he's observant, and he's compassionate. Black, white, or blue, that makes for an extremely respectable personage.



Also, he has a very strong face. He has large nostrils because, hey, sometimes black people have nostrils that are larger. So do white people, and so do Asian people. Honestly, I find the fact that you have boiled his character down to facial composition to be quite ridiculous. Also, I don't know who you're talking about when you say "loudmouthed," as Jacob seems a lot more reserved than you'd have us believe. Opinionated? Certainly! But never disrespectful in the expression of that opinion.



Also, I found his abilities to be quite good. Barrier is just like Fortification, except it is affected more/less by different attacks/ammo. The cool-down allows it to be up 100% of the time (unless under unusually heavy fire), and so when I bring him along, I know he's going to stay up during an entire fight. Also, squad-wide incendiary ammo is incredibly helpful. My Shepard is a Vanguard, but I didn't invest a single point into either ammo option, because it isn't necessary with Jacob on the team.



He was a main-stay in my party, along with Miranda. Go Team Cerberus!

[MerinTB]

Tyfreaky wrote...

Oh by the way:

There use to be a Superwomen, and a super horse and a super cat, and a super dog. They all use to help Superman and Super Boy out from time to time.

This was way back in the 60s, look em up in a wiki sometimes... it gets really weird. Why do you think they retcon the DC universe every other year?
Superwomen
Comet the Super horse
Beepo the Super Monekey
Streaky the Super Cat
Krypto

I know of the superpets.  And that there was a Superwoman and a Batwoman (before the current Batwoman.)

Again, stuck 40+ years ago, you might as well still be complaining about people having to sit at the back of the bus. Things have changed since Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen was a viable comic book title.

[GenkiZer0]

Anyway the only person I was disappointed in was was Dr. Chakwas I thought she would play a bigger role in ME2 since she joined Cerberus.

[ManBearPig91]

Steve Urkel

[Lao Dan]

jacksmedula1 wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Personally, I think the fact that Jacob was black completely ruined his character, and made him the worst companion in the game.

Now before you guys hang me for being a Nazi, let me explain.   

No, I don't hate him simply for being black, but the fact that he was black caused irreparable damage to his character design.    It seems Bioware was so bent on trying to not offend anyone, or draw any rascist archetypes, while at the same time, keeping him charactersistically black, that they failed to develop him as a character, only as a "perfect black sidekick".     Which is kind of racist in its own right, but its not overtly racist, and I doubt it was intentional.     And I don't fault them for having subliminal biases.    

If he was white, Bioware would probably just ignore race and make him into a random, likeable character.    Hell, Zaeed is middle eastern, but because he is still white, Bioware felt free to make him into his own character rather then the "perfect middle eastern".     Each alien in the game is done entirely to portray a unique character.    Apparently, we can't do that with black people.

Jacob is.

Loyal, but independent.
Passionate, but not a womanizer
Heroic, but not irrational
Intelligent, but not too much.
Drinks, but not an alcoholic.
Eloquent, but still an everyman.
Determined, but not obssessed.
Self Conscious, but not Self Centered.

Yet despite all these exceptional qualities, he remains your sidekick throughout the entire game.    Even in the final mission, he has no role where he doesn't die, but can fill every single ****ing role.

You couldn't possible create a more boring character then that.     

Well said... This is the best description of Jacob I've seen yet... and exactly why he is completely forgettable.  

Let's not forget he's a vanguard, pretty much universally recognized as the worst class. 

[PuakaFace]

JamesDBacon wrote...

I like Jacob, a lot. He's honorable, well spoken, dutiful, likable, and still exemplifies behaviors indicative of his culture. He is a black man, and NOT the black everyman. Like him for who he is, don't hate him for what he isn't. He isn't a scientist, no, but he is extremely intelligent. He's empathetic, he's observant, and he's compassionate. Black, white, or blue, that makes for an extremely respectable personage.

Also, he has a very strong face. He has large nostrils because, hey, sometimes black people have nostrils that are larger. So do white people, and so do Asian people. Honestly, I find the fact that you have boiled his character down to facial composition to be quite ridiculous. Also, I don't know who you're talking about when you say "loudmouthed," as Jacob seems a lot more reserved than you'd have us believe. Opinionated? Certainly! But never disrespectful in the expression of that opinion.

Also, I found his abilities to be quite good. Barrier is just like Fortification, except it is affected more/less by different attacks/ammo. The cool-down allows it to be up 100% of the time (unless under unusually heavy fire), and so when I bring him along, I know he's going to stay up during an entire fight. Also, squad-wide incendiary ammo is incredibly helpful. My Shepard is a Vanguard, but I didn't invest a single point into either ammo option, because it isn't necessary with Jacob on the team.

He was a main-stay in my party, along with Miranda. Go Team Cerberus!

Now this is the kind of defense I was waiting for. Much better than I could have said it.

Noktarn wrote...

The doods got cheek acne or something that's my only quibble with him.  "

I liked this part. Made him look like one of the most realistic characters in the game. My uncle who is black has the exact same marks where he shaves. This little detail was brilliant!

[Permutation]

This thread is hilarious. OP wants a black character that doesn't look black. I'm not even black, and I find that an insult.

Modifié par Permutation, 15 février 2010 - 08:37 .

[Nemesis7884]

so true, damn it bioware, next time make black characters as they really are!

[PuakaFace]

Lao Dan wrote...



Let's not forget he's a vanguard, pretty much universally recognized as the worst class.

This statement makes me cry... Because it was not always this way... And i'm still a Vanguard loyalist/patriot/zealot... Why BioWare? Why?... Sorry to go off topic but I just had to.