230 réponses à ce sujet

[SkullandBonesmember]

kelsjet wrote...

I thought Jacob was great in ME2!

Though I was a bit disappointed that I didn't have the option of having him do a full freestyle gangstar rap as one of his dialog options under "Investigate".

I was also a little disappointed when I found out I couldn't get any 'recreational narcotics' from him at any point in the game, especially since the first thing he says to the player when we meet him after waking up is "Let me know when you want some of the 'good stuff'".

Oh well.
/rollseyes.

Hahaha, that's true. I was wondering the same thing.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Double post. Sorry.

Modifié par SkullandBonesmember, 15 février 2010 - 08:46 .

[jacksmedula1]

Tyfreaky wrote...

I am black and this thread is just..... wow.
Except for one or two stereo type moments, I thought Jacob was a great depiction of an African American male.

The only moment I even had a slight problem with was the "spill some wine on the citadel" . That was about it.

And its not like Jacob was the only one to be stereo typed:
Miranda anyone?

Genetically modified/bred uber Caucasian who works for a supremacist group and can't see why this MIGHT be a bad thing?

And I will never, EVER, ever, be able to figure out why all the 'perfect' people in every game or TV show has to Caucasian. So you can't make a perfect African, Hispanic, Asian, or Arab? Only white people can be bred to be perfect...sheesh.

The ONLY good part of the show Andromeda was the fact that there were Black. Asian, and Hispanic Nietzscheans. Yes Tyr was a bad ass.

So... you're saying that you cannot enjoy a game, movie, show or whatever unless the hero is black?  Don't you think that in itself is a problem?

Should I be offended that the perfect Krogan, genetically superior woman, queen of Omega, super warrior that defends the weak, and last but not least, canon saviour of the galaxy, all have ice blue eyes?  Why cant they have brown eyes like me?  Are they saying people with blue eyes are superior?

I feel sorry for you bro if you need a video game or tv show to give you validation.  

[newcomplex]

GenkiZer0 wrote...

@ New complex I won't say racist, I think they are too Politically correct. b/c any thing you make him would be seen by someone as offensive. They should concentrate on developing characters not plaing to insecure ppl out there.

No matter where you go on earth the sky is always blue, fire is always hot as ice is always cold and people will be people.

Everything good is in all cultures and everything bad is in all cultures.

Political Correctness is just a new way of being racist.

[Lao Dan]

newcomplex wrote...

GenkiZer0 wrote...

@ New complex I won't say racist, I think they are too Politically correct. b/c any thing you make him would be seen by someone as offensive. They should concentrate on developing characters not plaing to insecure ppl out there.

No matter where you go on earth the sky is always blue, fire is always hot as ice is always cold and people will be people.

Everything good is in all cultures and everything bad is in all cultures.

Political Correctness is just a new way of being racist.

?
I'm no fan of politcal correctness, but this is a ridiculous statement. 

[Hulluliini]

It bothers me that for the female Shepard, Jacob is basically a means to good sex. Gorgeous body and nothing else. And femshep can't talk to him about anything personal without flirting, in a MUCH more upfront way than with any other male LI!

[newcomplex]

Lao Dan wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

GenkiZer0 wrote...

@ New complex I won't say racist, I think they are too Politically correct. b/c any thing you make him would be seen by someone as offensive. They should concentrate on developing characters not plaing to insecure ppl out there.

No matter where you go on earth the sky is always blue, fire is always hot as ice is always cold and people will be people.

Everything good is in all cultures and everything bad is in all cultures.

Political Correctness is just a new way of being racist.

?
I'm no fan of politcal correctness, but this is a ridiculous statement. 

Political correctness implies that you need to word your opinions to avoid offence, rather then just not espouse offensive opinions.    

People shouldn't need to say things like "to be politically correct".    If you need that preposition, you should just shut the **** up.

Modifié par newcomplex, 15 février 2010 - 09:04 .

[MerinTB]

Tyfreaky wrote...
Suprisingly you actually proved my point on almost every single one of those depictions without knowing it.
When I stated 'superment I ment genetically phsically and mentally superior and created to be that way. Not talking about HERIOC, or EVIL I'm saying the concept of the genetically created or engineered super person be it human or alien or magic.

Putting aside the bolded and underlined parts I'll get to in a moment,  you are saying that regardless of being good or bad you have a problem with the "ultimate" people, with my use of ultimate to mean superior physically and mentally, being mostly white skinned.  Even if villains.  You are complaining that there weren't enough minorities demonized?  Or to put it another way you are complaining there weren't enough people writing stories in which the super-strong, super-smart monster that everyone had to beat was non-white?

Because when you just limit it being superior in strength and intelligence with no actions or moral compass, you are limiting it beyond what anyone who'd worry about equality really would.  Superman was originally written as a non-alien bad guy who had to be stopped by normal humans.  Usually in fantasy literature it was normal folk with swords and bows having to stop the uber-powerful wizards and demons.  Even in classic mythology it was a often human or a demi-god who faced monsters and gods. 

I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.  I think Londo being a traitor (and the only prominent non-white human Star Wars character to that point) is far more important a point to discuss about depictions of race in literature than, say, the fact that Hector Hammond was a white guy who was super-evolved to have superior intellect and psionic abilities and is an example of a "superman" who's caucasian looking.

Lets look at my original list shall we?:
[list][*]All the Kryptonian types: A bunch of superior aliens (especially clark) sent to earth. Now they have a red sun but these superior aliens somehow all are Caucasian looking?

Kryptonians, on their home world, are no smarter or stronger than humans. All of them.
They were all of the same skin tone because of the writers and audience at the time, but also because when alien races are made they tend to be treated like the most easy real world reference - different ethnicities and cultures on Earth. So all people of one planet are "alike" in many ways, and this could lead to a major digression about how the lazy way out for writers here is to use the sci-fi and fantasy trope of "humans are more diverse than other races."
Kryptonians and Daxamites happen to be light skinned.
The Martians (a la J'onn J'onzz) are green skinned and barely humanoid who are FAR MORE POWERFUL (in number of powers if not actual strength, those this latter part is debatable) than Kryptonians: on top of the invulnerability, healing, flight, speed, super-strength, super-breath, heat vision and x-ray vision, Martian Manhunter has shape shifting, intangibility, invisibility, and also powerful telepathy.
The Strontians in Marvel are like Kryptonians and Daxamites in abilities, and are all purple skinned with pointed ears.
So what?
To point, though, Kryptonians (and Daxamites) were not genetically nor magically engineered. Their entire race, from birth, via evolution, are like that. So your definition about being created fails. Unless you are going to move the goal posts to mean "created as in made-up by writers."

[*]Wonder Women, created to be the perfect daughter and women: Caucasian. looking

uhm, no
initially Wonder Woman's powers were because the God had granted ALL Amazons (and, sorry to your sensibilities, but making characters based on Greek myth kind of means they need to look Greek and not Chinese or Mexican) abilities greater to those of men
and then it was that anyone (read: ANYONE) who trained with the Amazons could become as powerful as they were
and THEN, in various ways, she was formed from clay and created to be a champion for the Amazons or to be the Queen's perfect daughter, but never both in the same origin...
Regardless, she was granted powers by the gods, so she technically fits your "engineered" criteria. Still, she's a character based on Greek myth - your implied meaning (as I see it) is that only white-skinned people are chosen to be engineered perfect, or perfect engineering choses white skin. But Diana was formed to look like the rest of the Amazons, and the writers of Wonder Woman chose Greek myth (I suppose you could claim bias and ask why not Sumerian or African myths and therefore a Middle Eastern or African looking "clay daughter" or whatever.)

The rest in a second post.

Modifié par MerinTB, 15 février 2010 - 09:56 .

[piemanz]

Totaly agree with the OP on this one.



Also,whats with all the stereotypical females with their "breasts" and "hips".And would it kill you to have some asari that look like krogan!?

[The Demonologist]

OP is a mixture of regular and positive racism.



Lando was ****in awesome. When I was a kid he was just awesome. How could you hate Lando?

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

piemanz wrote...

Totaly agree with the OP on this one.

Also,whats with all the stereotypical females with their "breasts" and "hips".And would it kill you to have some asari that look like krogan!?

There was one woh was bartender on Ilium and she has scales.

Anywho, Jacob started of as a decent enough companion but when it got to that bit with the hand embracing I just sook my head ind disappointment. There's no way my Shepard would do that I say.

Modifié par Andarthiel_Demigod, 15 février 2010 - 09:12 .

[peterflam]

one thing i find interesting is that asians never complain about stuff like this even though they are almost never represented, and when they are, they are represented as basically white people with asian faces.



is there a sociological reason for this? are blacks enculturated to have an inflated sense of entitlement? it certainly seems this way to me.

[Tyfreaky]

jacksmedula1 wrote...

Tyfreaky wrote...

I am black and this thread is just..... wow.
Except for one or two stereo type moments, I thought Jacob was a great depiction of an African American male.

The only moment I even had a slight problem with was the "spill some wine on the citadel" . That was about it.

And its not like Jacob was the only one to be stereo typed:
Miranda anyone?

Genetically modified/bred uber Caucasian who works for a supremacist group and can't see why this MIGHT be a bad thing?

And I will never, EVER, ever, be able to figure out why all the 'perfect' people in every game or TV show has to Caucasian. So you can't make a perfect African, Hispanic, Asian, or Arab? Only white people can be bred to be perfect...sheesh.

The ONLY good part of the show Andromeda was the fact that there were Black. Asian, and Hispanic Nietzscheans. Yes Tyr was a bad ass.

So... you're saying that you cannot enjoy a game, movie, show or whatever unless the hero is black?  Don't you think that in itself is a problem?

Should I be offended that the perfect Krogan, genetically superior woman, queen of Omega, super warrior that defends the weak, and last but not least, canon saviour of the galaxy, all have ice blue eyes?  Why cant they have brown eyes like me?  Are they saying people with blue eyes are superior?

I feel sorry for you bro if you need a video game or tv show to give you validation.  

Uhmm no I was not saying that and I don't know where in my post you got that particular idea.

I meant that Miranda being the 'genetically perfect caucasion' was as much or more of a steroe type than anything Jacob said.

I gave multiple examles of this in literature, TV and comics. Its an old school stereo type. The only two break out versions of this were Tyr Anazazi from Andromada and Khan from Star Trek.

My point, which several people are missing, is that while Jacob may have one ore two stereo typical features/lines , everyone seemed to miss how much another character was as much a stereo type or moreso than Jacob.

And the only way Miranda could have been more of one was if she was Blond haired blue eyed and had a European or american accent.


I do want to know where the HELL DID I SAY THE ONLY WAY I COULD ENJOY A SHOW WAS WITH BLACK HEROE?
I said nothing of the sort... and I am really not going to make anymore coments after this one, how that post can somehow be taken for me saying only black heroes are ok is beyond me.

So if you want to somehow twist what I say go ahead. I wont be a party to it.

[Lao Dan]

newcomplex wrote...

Lao Dan wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

GenkiZer0 wrote...

@ New complex I won't say racist, I think they are too Politically correct. b/c any thing you make him would be seen by someone as offensive. They should concentrate on developing characters not plaing to insecure ppl out there.

No matter where you go on earth the sky is always blue, fire is always hot as ice is always cold and people will be people.

Everything good is in all cultures and everything bad is in all cultures.

Political Correctness is just a new way of being racist.

?
I'm no fan of politcal correctness, but this is a ridiculous statement. 

Political correctness implies that you need to word your opinions to avoid offence, rather then just not espouse offensive opinions.    

People shouldn't need to say things like "to be politically correct".    If you need that preposition, you should just shut the **** up.

If you're saying many people use political correctness to mask their racism, I'm with you.  I don't think I'd go any further than that.

Modifié par Lao Dan, 15 février 2010 - 09:18 .

[thompsonaf]

Has ANYONE noticed that the thread OP has not reposted once? OP just trolled the **** out of all of you.



Successful troll is successful.

[MerinTB]

Continuing the conversation about superman super-heroes...

[*]The (DC) Marvels: A magic word makes them into super men and women capable of feats generally only Kryptonians can do, and every single one of the Marvels chosen was white. But your do get one point there BLACK ADAM has the same powers and abilites and was Arab not caucasin.

Seriously, magical powers granted with by saying a word equals engineering to you?  Really?

And the Marvels were created for Fawcett Comics in the 40's.  This is 70 years ago.  We hadn't been to the moon yet or dropped the a-bomb.  There wasn't even a United Nations yet!

[*]The Marvel Captain Marvel (Miss Marvel AKA Captain morvel): Was kree and genetically bred to be awesome.

Uh, no.
Mar-Vell was more James Bond than anything.  He was a Kree spy on Earth.  He was a NORMAL PINK-SKINNED KREE.  And the "pinks" were the minority, subjugated, second class off-shoot of the Kree who were initially all blue skinned.  Pink Kree were NOT created as super-kree.  Mar-Vell was just a Kree military officer, not a super-soldier of any sort.

And Carol Danvers was NOT engineered either.  She became half-kree due to an accident.  A Kree device exploded and changed her.  And she is far from perfect, even physically.

[*]You already conceded Captain America

Captain America is, again, the ONLY one who fits your criteria.  So I freely concede him.

[quote}Tyfreaky wrote...
Now lets look at the ones taht I would count under your examples Icon, Mr. Terrific, Triathalon
[/quote]

Really, by your now given definition of
[quote]When I stated 'superment I ment genetically phsically and mentally superior and created to be that way. Not talking about HERIOC, or EVIL I'm saying the concept of the genetically created or engineered super person be it human or alien or magic.[/quote]
none of my examples fit. None of them were genetically or magically engineered, none of them were "created" to be what they were, none were part of any super-soldier program. The only ones EVEN CLOSE (ignoring the "created" part) would be Conner Hawk, John Henry Irons and Michael Holt - if you allow for that they "created themselves" to be perfect.

[quote]
Icon: Was specifically created by a black person under the label 'black' comic label MILESTONE, and almost all the herios in that universe were non caucasion So he's so so, now if a white writer had made him and he was under a 'regular' Label I would have given you him. [/quote]

Wait, so now to your definition we need to add that it must come from a caucasian author and be created for only the two big comic book labels?
Seriously?
Your problem is with caucasian writers writing about characters they could identify with? Your beef is with white writers not giving black characters their due, isn't it?
If that's it, this is my last post responding to you because you have your own issues you need to deal with.

[quote]
Mr. Terrific: You got me there. He's farcking awesome. But he was not 'made' to be perfect (though he is) he just happened to come out that way. He was not the product of 'eugenics' either magical or science related. But I will give you him.[/quote]

I barely accept him using you criteria now, but you need to include Green Arrow and Steel if you include Mr. Terrific.

[quote]Triathalon: Same thing. Never heard of him though he sounds cool. Wont give you him.[/quote]

Fair enough. I know of Doc Savage but didn't touch him, either.

--

Now I have three problems here:

1 - and this is big - your issue seems, after several posts, to be revealed to be white writers for major companies not writing black characters. Of my list you only picked the African American examples, and you specifically dismissed Icon (even though Icon is in DC now, like Shazam! Captain Marvel is in DC now, and Dwayne McDuffie is big time writer in comics and super-heroes (JLU, people!!!)) If so, I'm not touching this with a ten foot pole.
2 - Engineered / Created: Almost everyone you list (short of Captain America) were not actually "given" abilities in an attempt to create the perfect ANYTHING.
3 - You list "physically and mentally superior" but, even granting old 60's comics where Superman has super-mental capabilities (which, btb, haven't been part of Kryptonian abilities for almost half a century at this point) -
Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, and Captain America do not have superior intellect. Not even close.
Mr. Terrific, Steel and Green Arrow do, though.

---

BTB, Captain America was created to be a "super-soldier" not a perfect man.
In Marvel, to find the scientific project to create the perfect man you'd have to look to Him, aka Adam Warlock.
He of the GOLD skin.  And usually Asian facial features.
:innocent:

Modifié par MerinTB, 15 février 2010 - 09:42 .

[jacksmedula1]

I'm offended that Shepard's dancing is a white man stereotype.

[SamN7]

I was a bit disappointed with him but come on, you can't possibly think he's as bad as Cole Train, he's almost the definition of that cliche.

[JamesDBacon]

PuakaFace wrote...

JamesDBacon wrote...

I like Jacob, a lot. He's honorable, well spoken, dutiful, likable, and still exemplifies behaviors indicative of his culture. He is a black man, and NOT the black everyman. Like him for who he is, don't hate him for what he isn't. He isn't a scientist, no, but he is extremely intelligent. He's empathetic, he's observant, and he's compassionate. Black, white, or blue, that makes for an extremely respectable personage.

Also, he has a very strong face. He has large nostrils because, hey, sometimes black people have nostrils that are larger. So do white people, and so do Asian people. Honestly, I find the fact that you have boiled his character down to facial composition to be quite ridiculous. Also, I don't know who you're talking about when you say "loudmouthed," as Jacob seems a lot more reserved than you'd have us believe. Opinionated? Certainly! But never disrespectful in the expression of that opinion.

Also, I found his abilities to be quite good. Barrier is just like Fortification, except it is affected more/less by different attacks/ammo. The cool-down allows it to be up 100% of the time (unless under unusually heavy fire), and so when I bring him along, I know he's going to stay up during an entire fight. Also, squad-wide incendiary ammo is incredibly helpful. My Shepard is a Vanguard, but I didn't invest a single point into either ammo option, because it isn't necessary with Jacob on the team.

He was a main-stay in my party, along with Miranda. Go Team Cerberus!

Now this is the kind of defense I was waiting for. Much better than I could have said it.

Noktarn wrote...

The doods got cheek acne or something that's my only quibble with him.  "

I liked this part. Made him look like one of the most realistic characters in the game. My uncle who is black has the exact same marks where he shaves. This little detail was brilliant!

Thanks for the kind words!  I also agree with you that Jacob is one of the more real looking characters, and his skin irritation is a nice detail.  Of all the humans in the game, I think Jack and Jacob look the most realistic.

Miranda is  real, so I don't count her. 

Modifié par JamesDBacon, 15 février 2010 - 09:37 .

[smecky-kitteh]

Lmao at the title. Use trollin