17 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr0TYuH]

This isn't a thread for bashing the game.  I just want to judge others' reactions to the big twist in the game--the Collectors are Protheans.

When that revelation came up in the game, I didn't gasp, and I wasn't surprise.  My reaction was more along the lines of, "Oh, really...."

We know, from the example of the keepers, that the Reapers have repurposed species in the past to suit their needs.  But the keepers were one of the first, if not the first, species to be harvested by the Reapers, if Vigil's supposition is correct.  I find it quite plausible that the Reapers have repurposed other species, and we may yet meet them in future.  I fully expected the Collectors to be one of these species.

The Reapers have been around at least 37,000,000 years.  They harvest the advanced organic species around every 50,000 years.  So they've that gives us 740 harvests, possibly many, many more.  The Reapers have this well-oiled harvesting operation that has been going on without a hitch for a very long time.  Why did they feel the need to make the Collectors now?  Any niche needed for their operations should have been filled a long time ago.  The Reapers did not know about the Conduit.  They didn't know anyone had thrown a monkeywrench in their plans until Nazara sent its signal and nothing happened.

I actually came up with, in my opinion, a decent fanwank to explain this.  The Protheans were studying the developing species.  They had an outpost on Mars observing humans.  They had cities on Kahje and studied the hanar.  There seem to be Prothean ruins in the home systems of many of the current spacefaring civilizations.  When the Reapers attacked and gained the knowledge of the Protheans, they probably realized that the next cycle would contain copious species.  Since the Protheans were inclined to study them, they were repurposed to do so for the Reapers' benefit, becoming the Collectors.

Still, it just seems forced.  It feels like someone at BioWare said, "Everyone loves and respects the Protheans, wouldn't it be a great twist if they were the enemy."  It could also be a response to those on the old boards who kept hoping that some Protheans survived, like someone said, "You want Protheans, we'll give you Protheans in the worst way possible."  Anyway, it just felt hollow and forced to me.  I would have enjoyed it more if the Collectors had just been another in a long line of forgotten species twisted to suit the Reapers needs in the far distant past.  That, in my view, would have reinforced the scope and timelessness of this horrible cycle. 

Of course, this is only my opinion.  How does everyone else feel about this?  Any devs willing to share any insight into the decision?

[Aradace]

It wasnt there to make you "gasp"....Honestly, I had suspicions that the Collectors and Protheans were "connected" in some way due to little nuances from ME1 and the modified prothean vision in ME2 Confirmed it for me even before I got to that mission so really, when you factor that in, it really wasnt intended to "suprise" you...Just confirm your suspicions anyway of the fact.

[kaotician]

Don't we also glean from the game that the Protheans' have degenerated to the point of non-sentience now? I'm guessing that in the past other species were 'used up' in this way, until they were entirely defunct, meaning a 'new machine' had to be purposed, in this case, the Protheans in their turn.

Modifié par kaotician, 15 février 2010 - 10:11 .

[Aisynia]

I did this

[Netzach]

Well, the protheans-collectors wasn't a big revelation at all, but i'm sure that there were Collectors before protheans ever existed. I'm sure Collectors are a mixed "collection" of species, although EDI says they are protheans but she/it/whatever could be wrong because there are no data about other species dna.

I don't see it forced, in fact i like the twist because in my personal concept of Reapers it fits very well. The protheans give their lifes to give us a chance to fight and stop the cicle and as far as i know they were the first screwing the reapers plans (but not fighting against the inevitable)

By the way, my "oh my god" moment was at the end when the prothean general is at the computer and harbinger says his speech ending with "releasing control".

Modifié par kanuvis, 15 février 2010 - 10:17 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

I had no idea that M. Night Shamamalyaya... whatever was a head writer for Bioware.



Why does the game need a "twist" again?

[madisk]

I agree with your overall point - the whole Collector-Prothean thing seems kind of half-arsed at first.

I actually came up with, in my opinion, a decent fanwank to explain
this.  The Protheans were studying the developing species.  They had an
outpost on Mars observing humans.  They had cities on Kahje and studied
the hanar.  There seem to be Prothean ruins in the home systems of many
of the current spacefaring civilizations.  When the Reapers attacked
and gained the knowledge of the Protheans, they probably realized that
the next cycle would contain copious species.  Since the Protheans were
inclined to study them, they were repurposed to do so for the Reapers'
benefit, becoming the Collectors.

I still have faith in Bioware's writers and I'm relatively sure they'll patch up all these questionable 'plot holes' in the series. I always imagined the Protheans somewhat more advanced (and biologically superior, perhaps) than their predecessors - they were the only intelligent spacefaring race in the galaxy and their empire basically spanned the entire known galaxy. Like you mentioned, they had observation posts to monitor the many different developing species in the universe, and their own technological achievements were still likely light years ahead (the beacons being the few surviving examples of superior technology) of what the current species of the galaxy have.

I'm thinking the Protheans have a lot more backstory we still don't know - about how they evolved, colonized the entire galaxy and what influence they had on the next generation of intelligent life in the galaxy. Eventually I'm sure Bioware will reveal why the Reapers chose to repurpose the Protheans as their agents in the Milky Way above all other species that came before them.

Modifié par madisk, 15 février 2010 - 10:23 .

[DuffyMJ]

i agree that the prothean thing was kinda "ehh...." especially since EDI immediately says "no, they're not protheans" pretty much right afterwards, lol.



I agree that making them a timeless critter would have been much better.

[kaotician]

Oh, I have to disagree with you a little here SurfaceBeneath, remember KOTOR's twist? Breathtaking!!!Done well, a good plot twist takes its' material and transcends your understanding of what has been - done right, they feel just great.

[SurfaceBeneath]

kaotician wrote...

Oh, I have to disagree with you a little here SurfaceBeneath, remember KOTOR's twist? Breathtaking!!!Done well, a good plot twist takes its' material and transcends your understanding of what has been - done right, they feel just great.

Yes, but why does a story have to have a huge dramatic twist?

I didn't see the Prothean = Collectors reveal as an attempt at a twist at all. More just trying to explain the Reaper's relationship with the Collectors.

[kaotician]

I agree that it's more a revelation than a twist, but it certainly adds new understanding to the events, which is something that a good plot twist also accomplishes. It's also true to say that ME2 does not suffer for there being no 'twist' to the tale - in fact, 'twists' always run the risk of appearing gimmicky if mishandled.

Modifié par kaotician, 15 février 2010 - 10:40 .

[Giantevilhead]

The Prothean Collectors probably weren't the first ones. The Omega 4 relay predates the Protheans. The Reapers have been using it for a long time as evident by the fact that the IFF from the 37 million year old Reaper worked on the relay. There's also Joker's line about how the wreckage surrounding the Collector base looked ancient.



It's likely that the Reapers have always used Collectors and that the Protheans are simply the newest generation.

[Sharn01]

This was actually one of the things in the story that I did find plausible. My take on it was that with each reaping, they try to make a new Reaper, if the race is unusable for some reason they repurpose them for cannon fodder later on.



Perhaps they replace the role the Collector's/Prothean's fill every few Reaping's, they did not seem like a race that was living lives and reproducing, even with the tech to keep them alive indefinately, I imagine they lose the population over time from accidents and other event's, particuarly if they use them as ground troop's when reaping the galaxy.

[Mr0TYuH]

kaotician wrote...

Don't we also glean from the game that the Protheans' have degenerated to the point of non-sentience now? I'm guessing that in the past other species were 'used up' in this way, until they were entirely defunct, meaning a 'new machine' had to be purposed, in this case, the Protheans in their turn.

kanuvis wrote...

Well, the protheans-collectors wasn't a big revelation at all, but i'm sure that there were Collectors before protheans ever existed. I'm sure Collectors are a mixed "collection" of species, although EDI says they are protheans but she/it/whatever could be wrong because there are no data about other species dna.

I don't see it forced, in fact i like the twist because in my personal concept of Reapers it fits very well. The protheans give their lifes to give us a chance to fight and stop the cicle and as far as i know they were the first screwing the reapers plans (but not fighting against the inevitable)

By the way, my "oh my god" moment was at the end when the prothean general is at the computer and harbinger says his speech ending with "releasing control".

Actually, this is an interesting idea.  There are always Collectors, but, due to the degeneration caused by indoctrination, they are always a species from the last cycle.  In his musing, Vigil made mention of keepers reacting well to indoctrination.  It could be the keepers are a fluke, in this regard.

Edit: ...and a couple of people said exactly this as I was writing.

Maviarab wrote...

Seemed fine to me, and whilst I maybe didnt get it it wasnt a huge suprise either, but then I dont play games and likewise watch films to 'suss it out earlier'...whats the point over analysing something...may as well not play/watch, I prefer to let the media take me on its journey.

I prefer things that make me think.  I like obsessing over details in my entertainment.  For me, that's the most entertaining part.  If it turns off my brain or has so many holes it can't stand up to examination, I lose interest.  Still, to each their own

Modifié par Mr0TYuH, 15 février 2010 - 10:49 .

[kaotician]

Back on the subject of the Prothean failure in the Reapers eyes, and their subsequent sequestration and repurposing, from other elements of the story we learn that humans are of interest to the Reapers because of our genetic variety, and perhaps this is something that the Protheans lacked. I'm just supposing here, but what if the Protheans were too genetically self-similar? We know that ant colonies are genetically identical to each other, and carry the queens DNA (which itself can vary queen-to-queen). What if this was the Prothean problem? Thus, 50,000 years of what would effectively have been genetic in-breeding by the Reapers of the Protheans reduced them in the way that they are, such that they are/were in the end incapable even of basic thought processes? I think that the Reaper experiment with human DNA is exactly the same sort of 'test' that the Protheans were put through.....but only time will tell if we're good enough for them, or are to be the Prothean replacement..........

[Vamp44]

Aisynia wrote...

I did this

Oh? 

Mine was :|. lol

[armass]

They tought of it before ME1. If you remember the vision the original game had, it had some bizarre and disturbing imagery of flesh melding with tech, of course we didn't know what it really meant until me2. They repurposed protheans to be collectors.

Me3 twists have already been worked out too, this wasnt just a "spur of the moment add" on the writers part. And it was pretty distrubing reveal when you connect it to the visions.

Modifié par armass, 15 février 2010 - 04:11 .