176 réponses à ce sujet

[Whailor]

Shepard wasn't anywhere near there so his talk was not aimed at him. Heck, he said that a moment before the bug got torched, Shepard was already long gone. Harbringer said it pretty clearly to the Collector General, blaming yet another minions for failing at their job (despite the fact that he controlled them most of the time). As for Collectors, they weren't completely mindless like husks, they had most of their organs replaced by cybernetics but they still knew what they need to do, where and how they need to do it.

[Esker02]

I thought it was pretty clear Harbinger was talking to the General. If I remember right, the General stops his frantic attempts to save the base and looks at the hologram of Harbinger as he starts talking, which I took as indicative of the fact he was speaking to him. Seemed obvious enough...

[Whailor]

Shepard wasn't anywhere near there so his talk was not aimed at him. Heck, he said that a moment before the bug got torched, Shepard was already long gone. Harbringer said it pretty clearly to the Collector General, blaming yet another minions for failing at their job (despite the fact that he controlled them most of the time). As for Collectors, they weren't completely mindless like husks, they had most of their organs replaced by cybernetics but they still knew what they need to do, where and how they need to do it.

[KPnuts123]

ODST 3 wrote...

That was sad when the General got incinerated. Freedom after years of enslavement only to be torched.

YEah it was sad, especially the moment you see the realisation on the Collector General's face that he's free and then BOOM.  A nuclear explosion hits him in the face.

Anyway if you watch the scene his hologram image brings it's space squid legs up to release the control so it's probably aimed at both Shepard and the Collector General.

[Lightice_av]

Its a monologue, talking about unstoppable bad the reapers are. The collector general was still being controlled during the speech anyways. They have no feelings anymore or brains, there just husks with cybernetics.

That's your assumption, not a fact. Look at the Collector General during the speech. When the light goes out from its eyes, it reaches towards the Harbringer's hologram almost desparately, and then lowers its head as in grief. I find it a tragic figure, not just a mindless pawn.

Remember that further you take the Indoctrination, the less capable the subject becomes. As such, if the Harbringer doesn't want to control its every move constantly, the Collector General must have some free will left to keep things in order in its absence.

[ArcanistLibram]

I ended up deciding Harbinger was talking to the Collectors and Shepard. The Collectors failed to make a Reaper baby and Shepard's failure to prevent the Reapers from harvesting the galaxy is (alledgedly) predetermined.

[Akinra]

KPnuts123 wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

That was sad when the General got incinerated. Freedom after years of enslavement only to be torched.

YEah it was sad, especially the moment you see the realisation on the Collector General's face that he's free and then BOOM.  A nuclear explosion hits him in the face.

Anyway if you watch the scene his hologram image brings it's space squid legs up to release the control so it's probably aimed at both Shepard and the Collector General.

My first time through I had thought it was directed at Shepard, and was a bit confused. But I'll have to watch more closely this time round and look out for this. It would make more sense.

[Ferocious7]

Well he did tell Shepard about how what he accomplished there means nothing blah blah blah... getting all nervous because Shepard is owning him.



But when Harbinger said "You have failed. We will find another way. Releasing control." it could be taken as he is talking to Shepard, the General.. or both. However, judging from the General's look on his face... he just got his mind back, looked around in shame like "what have I done?" And then that was it.... so based on body language, that part was directed at the General. However, if a dev came in here and said either or both it could still make sense.

[Lightice_av]

But when Harbinger said "You have failed. We will find another way. Releasing control." it could be taken as he is talking to Shepard, the General.. or both.

He can't be talking to Shepard; he says it even if Shepard is dead. What he says during Shepard's escape it directed at him, as he directly addresses him as "human", but when Shepard is either in the Normandy or dead, he speaks solely to the General.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 15 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[Draconis6666]

it was NOT directed at shepard by the time he says it shepard isnt even ON THE STATION he's already boarded the normandy and is flyiing away. IT makes no sense for him to begin a conversation addressing shepard and then randomly tell the collector general he is releasing control in basicaly the same sentance.



The collector general shows obvious signs of possibly still having its own mind on some level when harbinger releases him not to mention reapers have been shown countless times to be excessivly arrogant to the point where its likely that a repear cannot fathom the concept that it may have failed on its own and that the failure isnt because of some lesser organic species inferiority

[Torhagen]

CorvisRex wrote...

Nope. Harbinger is the Reaper behind the collectors, not the head bug of the collectors. He is telling the collectors that they have failed. Funny since, like is said, they have no minds of their own...

That mixture of Keeper and Prothean might be special like a Warden who controls the mindless slave somehow i hope we see him freed in ME3. Before Legion i thought there Geth have the intellect of a Varren 

Modifié par Torhagen, 15 février 2010 - 06:10 .

[WillieStyle]

Lightice_av wrote...

But when Harbinger said "You have failed. We will find another way. Releasing control." it could be taken as he is talking to Shepard, the General.. or both.

He can't be talking to Shepard; he says it even if Shepard is dead.

You're being too literal.  "You have failed" is directed towards the player (ergo Shepard).  It's dramatic irony wherein the audience sees something that the characters may not.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 15 février 2010 - 06:06 .

[rotingCORPSE]

Harbinger said you have attracted the attention of those greater than you be fore saying "You have failed. We will find another way. Releasing control."



so its pretty much directed at shepard.

[xxman]

the harbringer talked to shepard when he said he have failed he means that even if he won this time he will fail at the end no matter what he will do he means there is no way he will win in the end

[Lightice_av]

You're being too literal. "You have failed" is directed towards the player (ergo Shepard). It's dramatic Irony wherein the audience sees something that the characters may not.

Watch it again and pay attention to the Collector General. Then tell me it's directed at Shepard - or the player for that matter.

[Ferocious7]

Lightice_av wrote...

But when Harbinger said "You have failed. We will find another way. Releasing control." it could be taken as he is talking to Shepard, the General.. or both.

He can't be talking to Shepard; he says it even if Shepard is dead. What he says during Shepard's escape it directed at him, as he directly addresses him as "human", but when Shepard is either in the Normandy or dead, he speaks solely to the General.

If you read what I wrote I said it "COULD" be taken that way.   I'm pretty sure in that part he was talking to the General after going through it a few times now and paying closer attention, however before that whole scene with Shepard making it onto the Normandy or not... he IS talking to Shepard.

There is no 100% way to tell who is saying "you failed, we will find another way" to... not without a Developer coming in here and confirming it.   That is why I argued the point, it could work EITHER way.  I'd assume they meant that part was towards the General based on his body language after forget what happens with Shepard or not he could be talking to his crew in general... (if just Joker is left then Joker)... my point is the Devs can come in here and say it was directed at one, the other, or both and they can completely justify it.  It would make more sense that that was a Prothean who's mind was still in tact, yet was being controlled by the Reaper and just regained control of his mind in a WTF fashion.   But there's no way to know for sure, so there's no point in people arguing it being it could be justified either way.

Now hopefully that's a little clearer for you.   =)

[Lightice_av]

I'm pretty sure in that part he was talking to the General after going through it a few times now and paying closer attention, however before that whole scene with Shepard making it onto the Normandy or not... he IS talking to Shepard.

Exactly. The first part is directed at Shepard, the latter part is not.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 15 février 2010 - 06:16 .

[WillieStyle]

In that same scene Harbinger says " Your species has attracted the attention of those infinitely greater than you."
He is clearly speaking to the player/Shepard.

From a dramatic standpoint, it makes no sense for Harbinger to be talking to his pawn. 
The final monologue of the inscrutable villain directed at the player: good writing.
The final monologue of the inscrutable villain directed at his barely sentient pawns: crap writing.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 15 février 2010 - 06:20 .

[Lightice_av]

In that same scene Harbinger says " Your species has attracted the attention of those infinitely greater than you."



He is clearly speaking to the player/Shepard.

It's not the same scene. They are two separate scenes. In the first part the Harbringer speaks to Shepard, in the second it speaks to the General. Now go see the video again. I've watched it three times during this conversation, and get the same result every time.

[Ferocious7]

Lightice_av wrote...

I'm pretty sure in that part he was talking to the General after going through it a few times now and paying closer attention, however before that whole scene with Shepard making it onto the Normandy or not... he IS talking to Shepard.

Exactly. The first part is directed at Shepard, the latter part is not.

The first part without a doubt, he clearly says "human"  to start off his sentence.   The second part MOST LIKELY.   I wouldn't say definitely when the devs could literally come in here and say it was to both with different meaning for each, it was to the general, or shepard..... it could make sense, but more than likely it was to the General.  That was the point I was making.  All we can do is speculate being he doesn't say human, collector, general, etc... don't forget he was also controlling the General.. so who really failed?   Harbinger failed if anything being he was controlling the General.. and we know this because he says "releasing control".   That's my point.   I can argue it either way.  There is no absolute truth to it without a dev commenting.   I see how the body language of the general makes it seem as if he was talking to him, but also how he's saying the general failed yet he was controlling him is contradicting... so it could seem to Shepard or both. 

So regardless of who he was talking to, it could make sense to both or either.  The first part is clear, because he says "human" to start off.  The second it depends on you perspective, I see it in the views of both arguments.. so the only definite answer would be that of a developer.  However, it's insignificant... just interesting.

Modifié par Ferocious7, 15 février 2010 - 06:26 .

[Tyreal42a]

WillieStyle wrote...

In that same scene Harbinger says " Your species has attracted the attention of those infinitely greater than you."
He is clearly speaking to the player/Shepard.

From a dramatic standpoint, it makes no sense for Harbinger to be talking to his pawn. 
The final monologue of the inscrutable villain directed at the player: good writing.
The final monologue of the inscrutable villain directed at his barely sentient pawns: crap writing.

Play it again. Those 2 are DEFINITELY separate scenes, as mentioned.

I thought it was pretty clear he was talking to the Collector general and the Collectors in general (Collector general...collectors in general...that sounds weird).

As for the theory that it couldn't have been, since he was the one controlling them, there's 2 reasons why I really doubt that.

1. The Collector general DEFINITELY seemed to have some level of awareness, as you can see as it looks around. So even if it is being controlled, it's still itself in some small way and might even have come to serve the reapers, knowing that not doing so would be futile and result in its demise. Saren was partially controlled, but Sovereign didn't take full control of him until the very end because it felt he would be more useful with partial control of his own will. Perhaps Harbinger felt similar with the general?

2. The Reaper might have been directly controlling them, but it's still having to use something else's body and unable to act at its full power. If you haven't noticed, they tend to look upon organic beings as servants or puppets. It could have meant the Collectors' weak bodies were inadequate for its controlling needs.

Modifié par Tyreal42a, 15 février 2010 - 06:35 .

[jrubal1462]

I think he was talking to Shepard/the galaxy in general. Saying that fighting the reapers is the wrong thing to do, since they're just trying to protect us from things that are infinitely greater. I'm not sure what's soooo much worse than wiping out all life, ever, or turning an entire race into goo, but I trust him. He seems like a stand-up guy

[Ferocious7]

I know I can edit, but figured I'll double post being the post is long enough.. it would definitely be more interesting though if indeed he is talking to the General.... and this whole time the General was under his control, a living Prothean... as to what he went through, did he seek out the Harbinger or vice versa... and why in the world would he say you failed if he had control? I'd love to see those questions answered if that does turn out to be who it was directed to. Would provide for some good back story and prove that the reapers are complete egotistical morons if they can't account for their own mistakes, which could ultimately lead to their inevitable downfall. =)

[newcomplex]

The reapers talk far too much. Their voice should sound like the wail of a thousand unborn babies, not like Voldemort.

And its clear hes talking to shepherd.    Argueing otherwise is completely retarded, as guess what, Collectors are not sentient.    Talk to them would make as much sense as someone talk to their gun U HAVE FAILED when he misses.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 15 février 2010 - 06:33 .

[Tyreal42a]

People are getting the 2 conversations mixed up. One of them was clearly directed at Shepard/humanity in general, the other was a separate one with the scene of the Collector general that is up for debate. Two separate conversations!