176 réponses à ce sujet

[StowyMcStowstow]

Yeah I always thought it was directed at Shepard. It didn't occur to me that it might be at the Collectors. It makes far less sense that way.Throughout the whole game, everything the Harbinger has done was to get at shepard. he talked at shepard everytime he took over a collector, so why would he only now talk to his minion?

Modifié par StowyMcStowstow, 15 février 2010 - 07:23 .

[Tyreal42a]

newcomplex wrote...

Mordin clearly states that the Collectors brains have been reduced to the level of a neural remote control transponder.   

Mordin's smart, but Prothean/Reaper technology is more advanced than anything he's familiar with. I think the Collector general's reaction at the end shows us it's not entirely true. And why would they even waste time with organic pawns if not to allow them some limited functionality of their own body/mind. There are plenty of normal collectors not being 'directly controlled'.

[Draconis6666]

So he was talking to shepard when he monologues on horizon and first says "assuming direct control" despite shepard not even being on the planet yet?

how about... no

The first time you even hear harbinger talk he is talking to his collectors so to state that he never talks to anyone but shepard is retarded.

Modifié par Draconis6666, 15 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[newcomplex]

Tyreal42a wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Mordin clearly states that the Collectors brains have been reduced to the level of a neural remote control transponder.   

Mordin's smart, but Prothean/Reaper technology is more advanced than anything he's familiar with. I think the Collector general's reaction at the end shows us it's not entirely true. And why would they even waste time with organic pawns if not to allow them some limited functionality of their own body/mind. There are plenty of normal collectors not being 'directly controlled'.

Yes, they are being indirectly controlled by the collector general.    Who is being directly controlled by Harbringer.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 15 février 2010 - 07:27 .

[kaotician]

I disagree. The CG appears to be something else again, both in his physical appearance and the fact that he clearly is looking or cognating something as he stares up at Harbinger, and then turns his head towards the light........Perhaps he's the last Prothean left with any degree of autonomy, the last hope for the Protheans themselves to survive.

[Draconis6666]

newcomplex wrote...

Yes, they are being indirectly controlled by the collector general.   

Which would require the collector general to have some form of his on intelligence or harbinger would be in control of all the drones to begin with through the collector general.

[Gill Kaiser]

T1l wrote...

The "You have failed" was directed at Shepard, I thought.

Naa, I think the 'you have failed' was directed at the Collector General - the cinematography of the scene suggests it. Harbinger doesn't start talking to Shepard directly until a number of seconds later and a scene change, at which point Shepard is the focus of the camera.

[Draconis6666]

except the protheans look nothing like the collector general, the beacon you find on the N7 mission is a warning from the protheans ABOUT the collectors it is not ment to imply that the protheans looked like collectors Even in that beacon (as well as the visions in me1) you can freeze frame it and get clear images of humanish looking protheans, not to mention the codex entry for the protheans has a prothean husk that is clearly humanoid with face tentacles.

[Draconis6666]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

T1l wrote...

The "You have failed" was directed at Shepard, I thought.

Naa, I think the 'you have failed' was directed at the Collector General - the cinematography of the scene suggests it. Harbinger doesn't start talking to Shepard directly until a number of seconds later and a scene change, at which point Shepard is the focus of the camera.

Other way around, he talks to shepard first, then theres the sequence with no talking where shepard jumps on the normand (or dies) and flys away and then it cuts back to the collector general and harbinger talking right before the station explodes.

[Thezezeal]

Draconis6666 wrote...

So he was talking to shepard when he monologues on horizon and first says "assuming direct control" despite shepard not even being on the planet yet?

how about... no

The first time you even hear harbinger talk he is talking to his collectors so to state that he never talks to anyone but shepard is retarded.

The "Assuming Control" stuff could just be for the Player's benefit-- i.e., Harbringer thinks to himself "I need to do this myself", and so the Player understands why a random collector suddenly glows we hear that.

Also, as to talking about Shephard not being there, what we know suggests Harbringer can control the CG over immense distance, so why could he not likewise detect Shepard's arrival.

Not sure about the first time he talked, would have to play again...

[Draconis6666]

he gives direct commands to the colletors such as "prepare these humans for ascension"

[Gill Kaiser]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

T1l wrote...

The "You have failed" was directed at Shepard, I thought.

Naa, I think the 'you have failed' was directed at the Collector General - the cinematography of the scene suggests it. Harbinger doesn't start talking to Shepard directly until a number of seconds later and a scene change, at which point Shepard is the focus of the camera.

Other way around, he talks to shepard first, then theres the sequence with no talking where shepard jumps on the normand (or dies) and flys away and then it cuts back to the collector general and harbinger talking right before the station explodes.

Oh, you're right. I guess he was talking to Shepard, then.

[sticks435]

newcomplex wrote...

Guys your opinion is completely illogical. Shepherd, at the time of the dialogue, clearly cannot see the Collector general, or anything else except his immediate surrounding. He/She is only able to hear the collectors disembodied voice. The only assumption shep could make is that the Collector General is addressing him. Since this game is a ****ing role playing game, the only way your theory could be true is if you were to roleplay the collector general (who isn't even sentient, according to Mordin) From sheps perspective, the collector general is acknowledging him. This game is designed completely around sheps perspective, except a short sequence involving joker. Since this is fiction, the only logical conclusion one can draw is that harbringer is addressing you, the player, through shepherd.


Then theirs the matter of RIGHT BEFORE the piece of dialogue, the Harbringer specifically says "human".    Then theirs the fact that talking to collectors is like talking to a gun.    

How can you say the whole game is designed around Sheps perspective, when we clearly have scenes where he has nothing to do with them. It may be "his story" according to Bioware, but that doesn't mean that every single thing that happens is from his view. Take the scene in ME1 on Eden Prime with Saran and Nithius. Would you say that just because he wasn't there that the chars were talking to him? Absolutely not.

[Draconis6666]

Harbinger is more likely to be talking to no one and just monologing at that point than be talking to shepard.

[Draconis6666]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

T1l wrote...

The "You have failed" was directed at Shepard, I thought.

Naa, I think the 'you have failed' was directed at the Collector General - the cinematography of the scene suggests it. Harbinger doesn't start talking to Shepard directly until a number of seconds later and a scene change, at which point Shepard is the focus of the camera.

Other way around, he talks to shepard first, then theres the sequence with no talking where shepard jumps on the normand (or dies) and flys away and then it cuts back to the collector general and harbinger talking right before the station explodes.

Oh, you're right. I guess he was talking to Shepard, then.

The huge  gap in between and the fact that shepard has already left and that the entire first part where he is talking to shepard the scene focuses on shepard would disagree. Since for that entire second part the scene never even shows shepard just the collector general.

[Ferocious7]

newcomplex wrote...

Ferocious7 wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Tyreal42a wrote...

Ferocious7 wrote...

Tyreal42a wrote...

Ferocious7 wrote...

Tyreal42a wrote...
2. The Reaper might have been directly controlling them, but it's still having to use something else's body and unable to act at its full power. If you haven't noticed, they tend to look upon organic beings as servants or puppets. It could have meant the Collector's'weak bodies were inadequate for its controlling needs.

That would be a very poor reason being you never battle the General, not once.  His body did everything the Harbinger commanded, he had control.   The harbinger failed no matter how you slice it.   It's organics vs organics, it's not like shepard is made of titanium and shoots lasers out of his eyes.

Not the general, but he controlled about 100 of the collectors trying to kill you. And failed. You have to think his odds of killing you would have improved had he been there to use his own glorious form rather than having to work via squishy, useless collector drones. So yes, their forms failed him.

No, he failed choosing them, if he is all knowing and all powerful, he would have known that they aren't powerful enough.  That specific scene doesn't show anyone but the general, and regardless they were fully functional and able to fight... the harbinger absolutely failed there is no doubt about it.  He had control, they weren't unhealthy.. and if they were he shouldn't have chosen them.  That's his fault.   Ultimately one being failed, the Harbinger.  Sugar coat it all you want, Harbinger failed. 

Go watch some youtube clips a few times, the more I watch it the more I realize the Harbinger fails.. so if he is blaming it on someone else, he is a moron... which would make sense being he still continues to underestimate Shepard.

Knows a lot and is powerful. I don't think it's ever mentioned they're 'All powerful,' though. They're arrogant enough, but I don't recall them outright making claim to that. Harbinger definitely failed, but so did the collectors. Every action that fails doesn't have to be the responsibility of one being. The collectors were modified and enslaved, but they still definitely seemed to have some awareness and action. It's possible there was only so much he could do with their base organic forms. That's still them failing him, even if a good portion of the failure was his own.  If he is claiming to be a god, of course he's not going to admit his own part of the problem, he's going to blame it on his minions, no matter how accurate it may be. Like a good villian should.

And he could easily have been referring to all the collector race in general while just talking to him. Heck, he does it with humanity through shepard often enough. Anyway, it just reinforces that particular conversation was definitely not for Shepard, to me.

First of all, he can easily mean that this little victory will matter little in the grand scheme of things.

The only the conversation makes sense from your perspective is if you accept his monologue as narration, despite the fact that the previous and subsequent lines both directly address shepherd.    If you do not accept it as narration, the fact that he is addressing the Collector general is completely illogical as shepherd cannot possible know that the Camera is panning to the collector general as he is saying this (to ensure "releasing control" makes more sense and is more dramatic).    

If you do accept it as narration, why the **** is their narration sandwhiched between too monologues directly addressed towards the main character?

This is why I say there is no absolute answer as to who he was talking to in that exact instance.  I can see all of your (plural) arguments from the valid viewpoints.   It makes sense a number of ways for any of the reasons listed here in this thread.  However, unless a developer comes in, it's left up to speculation.

The more I watched it, the more it seemed as if talking to the General made the most sense.. the way it seemed that he wasn't just an indoctrinated mindless freak, that he still had a mind and just gained control of it back at that last split second... would actually be pretty damn deep.  Just talking to shepard would be same ol same ol.    Talking to the actual player of the game, would be outright corny.  So hopefully, to add depth to the story... he's talking to the General or even Collector's as a whole with his "eye" so to speak on the General... because then there could be some back-story to that other than what we've already gotten.  More story = more Mass Effect 2 = More of a good thing.   

I say we all take a vote, I vote he was talking to Oprah.   He donated money to one of her charities and that was his air-time.   lol


I'd honestly like him to tell Jack or Grunt they fail.... and hear their rebuttals.  Harbinger would get verbally abused.

Were not argueing whether or not the collectors failing is valid or not.      Harbringer is not talking to the Collector general because grammatically, it makes absolutely no sense.   

Apparently you missed most of the convo, yes that is what I was arguing about.   The Harbinger failed.  He contradicts himself if indeed he was talking to the General or collector's as a whole.   The reaction on Harbinger's face plus the fact that he still says it no matter what happens to Shepard and where Shepard is, points to it being more likely that he is talking to the General/Collectors.  However, there's still a chance he is talking to Shepard... although it would be boring if he were because he already pretty much stated that in his previous dialogue.   It would be intriguing to find out how that general became under Harbinger's control in the first place..... if it was willingly or not, like Saren with how Saren "teamed' up with Sovereign.

The real point is, no matter what you or anyone says.... there are arguments for and against each of the opinions within this thread, and no 100% certain proof pertaining to that specific part of the end of the game dialogue.   So, you're beating a dead horse.  It's funny how one person who is saying he's talking to the General is arguing with me, then another who is saying he's talking to Shepard is arguing with me.... because you fail to realize that I agree and disagree with you both. LOL   That should be obvious by now.  I lean more towards General, probably just in hopes that it would be more interesting and it makes more sense given the effort they put into the animation to make it seem as if he just had a WTF moment....  but that's just opinion-based, just like everyone else's input here.   The only way to know for certain, is for a Developer or someone who represents Bioware to confirm/deny any speculations.   Until then, that's all it will be... speculation.

Might as well argue about Tali's hair and eye color.

This is actually starting to become funny.

[Gildenlock]

OK completely novel idea..



what if it was actually REAPERS talking to each other?



first reaper says "You have failed"



and he's talking to the second reaper who is actually harbinger. this reaper controlled the collector general, who he used to again control harbinger on the battlefield, i.e. the reaper controlling a puppet who in turn in pulling the string on another puppet



and so this second reaper says "we will find another way", and then "releasing control" discarding the final collector body when it is no longer useful to him

[Ferocious7]

Gildenlock wrote...

OK completely novel idea..

what if it was actually REAPERS talking to each other?

first reaper says "You have failed"

and he's talking to the second reaper who is actually harbinger. this reaper controlled the collector general, who he used to again control harbinger on the battlefield, i.e. the reaper controlling a puppet who in turn in pulling the string on another puppet

and so this second reaper says "we will find another way", and then "releasing control" discarding the final collector body when it is no longer useful to him

lmfao.... or maybe he was talking to fem shepard in her quest for F/F romance?   hahahahaaa  


Or maybe talking to everyone at home who went through two games to romance tali and see her face, only to not see it?   The possibilities are endless.....  hah.


I just want some dlc.  I know it's so new, but........ DA:O got a lot of DLC within a short time frame, ME2 deserves the royal treatment.

[Madecologist]

Well the Collectors did fail. I mean, they loose the base (Nuked or Irradiated), they get killed, Shepard wins the day, and the Human Reaper is destroyed. If I was Harbinger, I would call that a big failure.



So yes the comment was directed to the Collectors. They failed. I actually felt sad during that scene. Felt sorry for the Collectors, especially when it reaches up as it is released from Harbinger's control (add in I still remembered Mordin's speech about the Collectors being culturally dead).

[Aradace]

turtlecrunch wrote...

Did Harbinger diss...himself?

I mean, if he's controlling the General...

Ever stop to think that he was talking to Shepard? Because he did address him shortly after with the "Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater..." I kinda thought everyone assumed this....

[tertium organum]

DP

Modifié par tertium organum, 15 février 2010 - 08:20 .

[tertium organum]

Embarrassing stuff. He talks to Shepard then talks to the collector general, folks.

[JediMB]

"Next time, Gadget! Next time!"



"Meow!"

[Jax Sparrow]

I have beat the game a couple times now and I never thought that... I always assumed he was talking to my Shepp; However, now that it has been mentioned I think the OP is completely correct and the Reaper IS blaming the Prothean General even though he was being possessed almost the entire time... I mean, it completely make sense in a psychological way. Bad guys almost never take responsibility, that is part of why they are bad dudes.  If need be he can always say he ''inherited' Sheppard from Nazara.

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 15 février 2010 - 08:49 .

[WoodWizzard87]

Pretty sure he was still talking to the audience. Sounds very absurd, but think about it like this. I just played the entire game from Sheppards' perspective. Sheppard is now on the run, and we have harbinger doing his dialogue over the exit scene. He's telling the player(human), that you have failed and I'm still coming to get you. Its just there to reinforce that the reapers are still coming and the collectors were just pawns of a bigger plan. Sheppard was long gone and the collector general is just a husk, there is nothing more to it.