176 réponses à ce sujet

[Draconis6666]

ZennExile wrote...

Why do people think the Reaper is talking to the Prothean when the reaper is obviously just voicing his thoughts to Shepard? You have failed. (to shepard) We will find another way. (also to shepard) The Reaper has no reason to talk to a glorified husk. It's genetically engineered to serve a purpose and I am positive that purpose didn't include conversation. Just saying.

There is nothing in game that proves the collector general is the same as the collector drones, you have no information on the genetic makeup or level of alteration done to the collector general in comparison to the Collector Drones, Mordin's genetic information is all from baseline tests done on a drone it gives you no definate proof that the Collector General itself does not have limited cognition of its own, its clearly a much different organism than the drones, its even vastly different on a physical appearance level

[kaotician]

ZennExile wrote...

Why do people think the Reaper is talking to the Prothean when the reaper is obviously just voicing his thoughts to Shepard? You have failed. (to shepard) We will find another way. (also to shepard) The Reaper has no reason to talk to a glorified husk. It's genetically engineered to serve a purpose and I am positive that purpose didn't include conversation. Just saying.

See previous posts.

[Rebel_Guy]

I thought it was just to show the plot twist that Harbinger was the one "assuming control"

[kaotician]

mrs_anomaly wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

That was sad when the General got incinerated. Freedom after years of enslavement only to be torched.

Yes, that was sad. So I understand why he sent the 'proof' pic of the Reapers to the Normandy..

Oh yes? Very casually you've dropped that idea in, in order to explain away another debate.......:innocent:

Modifié par kaotician, 16 février 2010 - 01:04 .

[kaotician]

Rebel_Guy wrote...

I thought it was just to show the plot twist that Harbinger was the one "assuming control"

You may well be right - dramatic impact marred only slightly by us knowing the Reapers were running the show all along!!!!!

[DuffyMJ]

It's clearly directed at the Collector General who is quite likely self-aware and controlled in the same manner as Saren. The Collector General is clearly contemplative and resigned when he realizes his situation and that Harbinger has peaced-out.

[DuffyMJ]

lltoon wrote...

I think you guys need to see the context of what Harbinger said:

"Pathetic human. You've changed nothing. You have merely attracted the attention of those infinitely your greater. Those you know as Reapers shall be your salvation through destruction. You have failed. We will find another way...releasing control."

He was referring to Shepard.

Uh dude, YOU are the one who needs to look at the context, no offense.

It's more like this:

"Pathetic human. You've changed nothing. You have merely attracted the
attention of those infinitely your greater. Those you know as Reapers
shall be your salvation through destruction."

"You have failed. We will
find another way...releasing control."

there's clearly a beat between the two deliveries and the entire point
of that beat was to break his dialog between Shepard and his dialog
with the Collector General.

[Torhagen]

kaotician wrote...

Torhagen wrote...

look at 5:05

url comes up as invalid video id.

strange works fine for here

Mass Effect 2 Suicidal Suicide Mission (Part 5) Escape and Ending

Modifié par Torhagen, 16 février 2010 - 01:52 .

[Oawa]

I have to agree with the posters that say it's a monologue by Harbinger. He's just vocalizing his thoughts at the end, so we the players have a better understanding of what Harbinger is thinking.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

DuffyMJ wrote...

lltoon wrote...

I think you guys need to see the context of what Harbinger said:

"Pathetic human. You've changed nothing. You have merely attracted the attention of those infinitely your greater. Those you know as Reapers shall be your salvation through destruction. You have failed. We will find another way...releasing control."

He was referring to Shepard.

Uh dude, YOU are the one who needs to look at the context, no offense.

It's more like this:

"Pathetic human. You've changed nothing. You have merely attracted the
attention of those infinitely your greater. Those you know as Reapers
shall be your salvation through destruction."

"You have failed. We will
find another way...releasing control."

there's clearly a beat between the two deliveries and the entire point
of that beat was to break his dialog between Shepard and his dialog
with the Collector General.

Yup and as previously mentioned he still says the "You have failed" line even if Shep dies, so he definitly can't be saying it to Shepherd.

The 2nd 'beat' is well after Shepherd has fallen to his death and the Normandy is getting out of dodge, whilst the Collector General walks over to the station which has the hologram of Harbinger, whom then states to the Collector "You have failed..."

[Murphys_Law]

First of all, the Collectors are not Protheans anymore. Every single dialogue and information points to the fact that the Collectors are completely different from a genetic level and the fact they have cyborg implants. Note, this is more than saying they are Prothean husks they are not even Protheans anymore they are a mindless thrall race. Disregarding this by simply saying the Collector General looks sort of different is ridiculous, he is quite clearly a Collector not an indoctrinated Prothean. Remember the Collectors were engineered specifically for what they are doing with the Human Reaper, this goes for the General too. I suspect the last moment is nothing more than a mindless thrall suddenly losing the master that gave its life meaning. I find it laughable people see deep meaning in just a one second animation.



As for the second scene, I think it was for both the Collectors/Collector General and the player (not Shepard). The scene is there to show us that the Reaper fight is not over for us the players (get ready to buy ME3!). Also we are allowed a sneak peek at the whole Collector General/Reaper relationship is like. As for why the Reaper would say "you have failed to the player" is simple. The Reapers are quite overconfident, if you haven't noticed, and I think he is referring to the simple fact that, us the players, have failed to stop the Reapers from returning to destroy the universe as we know it. Face it all we did is kill their new baby Reaper...big deal. They have god knows how many hiding and the universe at large still doesn't think they exist. We have failed to save the universe...until ME3 that is!

[Shockwave81]

I think Harbinger is speaking to the player.



If you watch carefully, it appears that the Collector General does in fact 'die' when Harbinger releases control. His back legs twitch like an oversized cockroach, and his head turns to the left because there is no longer anything motivating it.



Everything the Reapers have done is geared towards ensuring that they are not discovered, which allows them time to prepare for the next great culling.



The Protheans were re-purposed into Collectors. The Reapers (specifically Harbinger) could then take control of a physical form within the galaxy proper, which allows them to go about their nefarious deeds, all the while keeping their true identities and physical shells, safe from outside 'interference'.



Quite clever really - the Collectors aren't similar to the Protheans in any way other than being bipedal, so nobody would suspect anything.



The fact that the Reapers go to such great lengths to hide themselves makes me think that they aren't as strong as we're led to believe.



Off on a bit of a tangent, but what I'm trying to say is that the Collectors are little more than costumes for the Reapers to play about in.



That's my theory on it anyway.

[Lloydya]

Gotta say I took it as Harbinger addressing Shepard, not the Collector General.



1. Makes the speech make a mot more sense/cooler

2. Harbinger "releases control" and the Reapers (such as Sovereign) are so up themselves about being awesome IMO I think Harbinger did literally control the Collector General, hence the crazy eyes, and he ran the show. Thus he wasn't dissing his own abilities (as the Collector General was just the shell) or the Collectors (who were just pawns following his direct orders), but abusing Shepard.



After all, why would the COLLECTORS care about Harbinger saying "We will find another way". Sure, "You have failed" is admittedly a little confusing about which, but the Collectors are about to be blown to hell (whether by fire or EMP pulse), I hardly think the Reapers finding another way to kill everything in their path concerns them at that moment in time.



So ye, IMO, it was directed at Shepard. Lot cooler that way.

[WoodWizzard87]

ohupthis wrote...

SmilingMirror wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Doesn't he also say something like "what you did here means nothing" or "you accomplished bollocks" in the same moment?

Yes, but that WAS directed at Shepherd....not that Shepherd was really listening lol. the camera was watching him as he was running off to the ship.

the "You have failed, we will find another way" thing was directed at the Collector general which was just a jerk thing to do. Note that the camera was looking at the collector general.

While the camera was directed at the CG(Collector General), there's where Harbinger, says "Releasing Control",
This is in NO WAY directed at Shep, it was intended to be seen by us, for the express intention of continuing the storyline.

By Harbinger 'releasing control' of his minions, who are about to become more spacejunk.

Think back to ME1, and when Soveriegn took control of Sarens' lifeless body, the fight of the century ensues(lol), we defeat 'him', then Soveriegn is left still "attached", and at that exact moment, Joker fires the torpedo, it was that moment of 'disbelief' that brought Soveriegn down. 

THANK  FCKING  GAWD, Someone other than me finally gets it.  The dialogue is directed at the person playing the game and is just there to reinforce the storyline that the reapers are still coming.  How can Harbinger blame collectors when they were his plans all along, as well as controlling all of them as husks. 

Modifié par WoodWizzard87, 16 février 2010 - 07:37 .

[tertium organum]

You don't get anything. I guess since Bioware didn't write "Releasing control... because you've failed. You can die with the rest of the collectors. Goodbye" has confused the lot of you. Harbinger is controlling the Collector yet he's not taking responsibility - he's arrogant just like Sovereign and he's releasing control and abandoning the CG because they've failed. The base, after all, is crumbling around him - he leaves the CG to die while chastising him. A typical villain move.


This "directed at the player" bit is also rather confused - it being a cinematic means it's obviously directed at the player. The content of the dialogue though is directed towards the collector general. We're simply privy to the scene. We have a perspective on it for plot reasons. Just like we see Saren kill Nihlus when we weren't actually there.That was shown for the player but not directed at him/her - we were privy to an event as spectators not as the actual player. However, it gave us insight into Saren ( he's bastard) and made our 'belief' that Saren killed Nihlus unquestionable ( we saw it) - it serves an expository function like many cut scenes in games where you, as the player, couldn't have literally been there or been the subject of the scene. I don't know why this even has to be explained. Watch the scene again, people. Harbinger shifts focus from Shepard to the CG.We're just shown what Harbinger says to inform us a little about him and to remind us they're still coming.

Modifié par tertium organum, 16 février 2010 - 09:03 .

[DuffyMJ]

*slams head against wall*



He is talking to the Collector general. The collector general is not a mindless husk, he clearly gazes at the deactivated console in shock, then resigns himself once it sinks in that he's been abandoned.



Harbinger CONSTANTLY talks to the collectors throughout the game, ordering them to preserve shepard's body, to ignore casualties, etc... He's very, very clearly talking to the Collector general, and the collector general is able to hear him (why else would harbinger even say "direct intervention is necessary" AFTER assuming control of a collector...?)



The Collectors did, in fact, fail. They failed to penetrate the squad's defenses who were holding the line. They failed to stop the destruction of the reaper child. they failed to kill shepard during the escape. they failed to shoot down the normandy... they ****ing sucked.

[tryguy]

@DuffyMJ



Oh, I like your directness! And I agree that you have it right. I took it exactly like this, and I'm having trouble seeing how people can take it any other way...



But, I especially like your last paragraph. sums it up nicely. EPIC Fail.

[Boilrig]

Harbringer, was talking to the collector general "You have Failed, We will find another way, Releasing Control"

[Keltoris]

I would argue the point that Harbinger probably doesn't need to talk to the Collectors on the battlefied.



I'm pretty sure that given he/they are capable of remote-controlling a collector, they'd have the bandwidth to to broadcast commands telepathically/electronically to the rest of the swarm.



The "Take Shepard Alive" stuff is there to instil fear in the character.

[Lequin]

that line was directed to the collector general.

it's actually an error with the subtitles
should've been "You have failed, We must find another way"

so not "will", but "must". means that the collectors failed the reapers so they gotta go formulate a plan C.

also, you can see an 'uplink' harbringer has to the station and something like his VI in front of the collector general, and then he disappears after "Releasing control". basically a villian stupid minions moment.

link to vid here


scene starts around ~3:20 or so.

edit: maybe i was wrong listening to it again (and again) but as posted below, would be will. so scratch that!

Modifié par Lequin, 16 février 2010 - 09:40 .

[Keltoris]

That's a "find", not a "must".



We will find another way.



On a different tab, so I couldn't see the subtitles.



And "will" sounds so much more inevitable than "must".

[Malckeor]

      *****spoiler warning*****

Just go to that link and skip to 2:40. He's clearly talking to the Collector General.

/thread

Modifié par Malckeor, 16 février 2010 - 09:48 .

[Seppiee]

I think Harbinger controlled the general, just like Sovereign transformed into Saren's body at the end of ME1. Because the Reapers have an ability to control minds, the Reapers searched for devestating synthetics (geth) or organic species (collectors) to make some kind of passage to our Milky Way. But Shepard killed Sovereign, which was just a key to open up the citadel for the Deep Space Reapers to begin a rampage. So they needed something else to make it happen, they figured out that no-one has ever returned from the Omega 4 Relay, so the collector base would be the perfect spot to create another Reaper, to replace Sovereign. And they made it human(oid) because of their genetic material, they knew that a human killed a Reaper. So the Reapers use the genetic material from the humans, because in their eyes, the humans are the only good warriors in the Galaxy.



And I think, because all of them failed, Sovereign/Saren and the Collectors, they just start up their engines and begin a long journey to the Milky Way, with the entire fleet. And as you can see, Harbinger has the shiny golden eyes, which were going out when Harbinger released control on the Collector general.



It's just what's in my mind.

[Lyrandori]

They do have a mind of their own, they've just been indoctrinated enough to follow Harbinger and the Collector general which itself/himself is being indoctrinated the same way that Saren was, or perhaps a little bit more, but not "too much". If anyone read the Codex about Indoctrination they should remember the part where it says that too intense an Indoctrination there is and very fast the targeted subject will die, but Indoctrination done with meticulous usage, over time, will allow the Reaper to control more subtly and for much longer periods of time.

The Collector general from what I can understand has been indoctrinated for some time, but still operates with some of his own consciousness, but he's just brain-washed thinking that Harbinger is right and that he, the Collector general, must not fail in his "duty", as much as Saren thought. But like Saren, it ultimately failed (the "master plan", I mean, whatever it was). So I do believe that Harbinger DOES tell the Collector general that he (the Collector general) has failed, and that they must find another way, meaning that it (Harbinger) does not need him (Collector general) anymore, thus releasing control upon him and leaving the slaved creature to his death, and now Harbinger just turns his attention to something or someone else.

There IS however a small speech directed at Shepard right at the end BEFORE the "you have failed" part, it's the "You have changed nothing" part that's for Shepard, the rest is obviously for the Collector general in my book, especially considering that Harbinger is seen as some sort of hologram in the Collector general's room, and that the general looks at that hologram right when Harbinger says that he has failed him, and then the general feels "sad" after the control upon him is released because he realized that he has indeed failed, only to have two or three seconds left to see his doom coming at him.

Modifié par Lyrandori, 16 février 2010 - 09:55 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Beside how harbinger could talk to Shepard if he (staying whit that video) was already on board of Normandy flying away as possible from explosion radius?
Harbinger wasn't able to communicate whit Normandy because there was no hyperlink between him and the Normandy and i am sure EDI did create extended communication firewalls to prevent such situation.
And the only way for Shepard to hear voice of the Harbinger was via indoctrination but we all known that this is not the case.
I can bring here Captain Picard case after he was rescued from Borg collective he preserve ability to still hear the collective if he find himself near Borg ship and Shepard (except contact whit the beacons and brief talk whit Sovieregin on Virmire) was never seriously "touched" by indoctrination.

And one more thing what is perhaps crucial in this case.

Saren could communicate whit Sovieregin via special implants when for example Shiala on Feros say pretty clear that all wah she felt inside of the Sovieregin was strange and very strong aura but Saren case proves that indoctrination is not unreversable (despite his extra "loyalty" implants i was able to turn him on the light side again) so i think in that brief moment after CG regain his true senses he send to Normandy a "surprise package" whit reapers data and this single datapad in Shepard holds could be indication that he do have all necessary informations...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 16 février 2010 - 10:43 .