176 réponses à ce sujet

[Syokhan]

I always took it as a monologue. Harbinger's a villain, so he's bound to have one

Seriously though, to me it sounds like he's talking about Shepard (he does begin with "Human") but also about humanity in general, or the ones who went to stop him if you want: "You have failed (to stop us, you may have won this battle but not the war), we will find another way (to get to your galaxy/harvest you/etc)". He's not really talking directly to Shepard, though, I doubt they have speakers in the Collector base so he's probably doing his... villain thing, monologuing alone in his control room. I don't see why he would be addressing the Collector General who, quite obviously, was under his control the entire time: whenever we saw him his eyes were always glowing. It would be like berating yourself for having failed.



Anyway, I guess unless a dev comes and clears this whole thing up, people are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

[ZennExile]

Wow people really can't accept reality here.

Lets see one good reason why the reaper would release control of its screwdriver and then accuse that screwdirver of failing to open a can of soup. Any good reason will do.

Otherwise Harbinger is just a monologue that goes with the scene. The reason no one says anything specific about the collector general is because only the handicapped would jump to this rediculous conclusion. The collectors are all 50 thousand year old clones of clones of clones. They didn't mention the general because the general is a collector too.

Oh and just so this is clear. The reapers talk "THROUGH" the host. Not to it. Gadamn some people are dense.

Modifié par ZennExile, 16 février 2010 - 11:42 .

[kaotician]

Okay one good reason. He's. Not. A. Screwdriver.



Dummy.

[ZennExile]

Over and over and over they say it in the game. Yet still. No clues. The whole "there is nothing left of them to save" part. Really does anyone play the game before they come up with this random crap or just watch youtube vids and make crap up?

[VampireCommando]

i wouldn't look to much into it guys, its probbly harbinger think 'oh ****, asif shepard actuly did beat me there, damn gotta save face some how..... !blame collectors for bening useless! what a genius idea.

i think this is most likely, or you lot could be right, it could be something very, very, very sinister lol

[kaotician]

I think it's straightforward enough. The small degree of autonomy that Harbinger allows CG justifies him(in his mind) to blame him.

[Akinra]

I don't think we'll get a definite answer on this until ME3. I've just finished another playthrough, and to be honest looking at it again, it could be construed as Harbinger talking to Shepard or to the Collector General. There's no way to be sure either way. My personal feeling is that it's Harbinger talking to the Collector General.

[marshalleck]

Syokhan wrote...

I always took it as a monologue. Harbinger's a villain, so he's bound to have one

It's this, absolutely. Even down to the whole protagonist barely avoiding their imminent destruction while the bad guy rants and raves. Total cinematic sequence that was never intended to make sense from the characters' points of view.

I swear it's like some people have never watched or read a play in their lives.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 février 2010 - 12:31 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

Akinra wrote...

I don't think we'll get a definite answer on this until ME3. I've just finished another playthrough, and to be honest looking at it again, it could be construed as Harbinger talking to Shepard or to the Collector General. There's no way to be sure either way. My personal feeling is that it's Harbinger talking to the Collector General.

He is talking to the CG. Shepard hasn't failed, the CG did and Harbinger was saying that "releasing control" crap afterwards.

[kaotician]

marshalleck wrote...

Syokhan wrote...

I always took it as a monologue. Harbinger's a villain, so he's bound to have one

It's this, absolutely. Even down to the whole protagonist barely avoiding their imminent destruction while the bad guy rants and raves. Total cinematic sequence that was never intended to make sense from the characters' points of view.

I swear it's like some people have never watched or read a play in their lives.

Which play or plays in particular are you thinking of?

[Syokhan]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
He is talking to the CG. Shepard hasn't failed, the CG did and Harbinger was saying that "releasing control" crap afterwards.

To me "You have failed" basically means "You think you have won? What you did there means nothing". All that "we are unstoppable" stuff the Reapers are so fond of telling us.

[marshalleck]

Nothing in particular, since I can't think of any play about space robots annihilating all sentient life in the galaxy. If it exists, I'm sad that I've missed it.

But really, any basic understanding of monologues and soliloquies should be sufficient for recognizing Harbingers rant for what it is. A sort of internal dialogue expressing his thoughts, or even directed at the player that says "you haven't won, we're still here, and we're really pissed off."

How dramatic!

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 février 2010 - 01:04 .

[Syokhan]

marshalleck wrote...
But really, any basic understanding of monologues and soliloquies should be sufficient for recognizing Harbingers rant for what it is. A sort of internal dialogue expressing his thoughts, or even directed at the player that says "you haven't won, we're still here, and we're really pissed off."

How dramatic!

Ah, thank you for saying with perfect eloquence and in two sentences what I was trying to convey ^^ The whole ending sequence is supposed to feel dramatic, so that means dramatic pauses + Shepard being awesome + (awesome) monologue. That's how I see it anyway.

[Vaeliorin]

Honestly, Reaper character is such that I can't imagine a Reaper even bothering to tell the Collector General that he's failed. I just don't see them caring enough to try and rub that in their faces 10 seconds before they're about to die.



I assume that Harbinger was simply broadcasting that to the people on the Normandy (not specifically Shepard, just whoever was alive there.) The Reapers don't really seem the type to me to go monologuing if they don't have someone to gloat at. It was the standard "What you've done doesn't matter, we're still going to win, nyah nyah!" type of thing.



Besides, it can't be a villain monologue, because Harbinger never says anything about their plan being sheer elegance in its simplicity.

[Torhagen]

ZennExile wrote...

Wow people really can't accept reality here.

Lets see one good reason why the reaper would release control of its screwdriver and then accuse that screwdirver of failing to open a can of soup. Any good reason will do.

Like it is unheard that one blames someone else for his own failure 
someone really can't accept reality here.

Otherwise Harbinger is just a monologue that goes with the scene. The reason no one says anything specific about the collector general is because only the handicapped would jump to this rediculous conclusion. The collectors are all 50 thousand year old clones of clones of clones. They didn't mention the general because the general is a collector too.
Oh and just so this is clear. The reapers talk "THROUGH" the host. Not to it. Gadamn some people are dense.

Like Saren to be able to work the subjects can not be fully indoctrinated and the Collector General had lot of work to do so he is bound to have some intelligence in him left to be able to react to situation and coordinate the collector forces.
 Harbinger hold him in a thight grip until the end of the base he is a very tragic creature.

Modifié par Torhagen, 16 février 2010 - 02:12 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

ZennExile wrote...

Over and over and over they say it in the game. Yet still. No clues. The whole "there is nothing left of them to save" part. Really does anyone play the game before they come up with this random crap or just watch youtube vids and make crap up?

This is more to do with your pathetic "He wasn't talking to the General" belief.

You mean those youtube videos which show that you really are as thick and not accepting reality as you claim everyone else is?

I know you can't help being Mr Thickity Thick from Thick Town.

But let me state the facts again so maybe they can actually drive into that amoeba sized brain of yours.

The "You have failed line..." is not uttered until Shepherd is either back on the Normandy OR lying somewhere on the collector base dead. YES I said it, he even says that line if Shepherd is dead. Now one other thing your eyes are obviously not paying attention to, is the fact there is a hologram of Harbinger in that room with the Collector General.

Now if I were to go and dig up a video of the scene on Horizon where it shows Harbinger 'assuming control' of one of the ground troops, you first see the Generals eyes light up even more than usual and then it switches to the collector drone who does the usual raising off the ground and getting taken over. That is basically Harbinger switching out from the General to the Drone. Fast forward back to the ending. As Harbinger states that line and says "Releasing control" the generals eyes swap from the yellow glare to their usual colour.

Yes there was 'nothing left of them to save', they were to all intents and purposes brainwashed husks (albeit not in the same manner as the actual 'husks'). Still doesn't take away from the fact, that Harbinger only had himself to blame for the plan failing rather than blaming the tools he used.

[Lonely_Fat_Guy]

lol 7 pages, who would ahve tought this to be possible.



look at youtube for an mass effect 2 ending, you can now see clearly that the collectors have failed and harbringer adresses them/his general.



why? CAUSE SHEPARD IS ALREADY ON THE SHIP FLYING AWAY!

doubt he has the time too evade EDI and send a message too shepard.



this making the protheans end even more dramatic, wich i liked.

this is probebly how seran would be like in the end ^^

[DuffyMJ]

ZennExile wrote...

Wow people really can't accept reality here.

Lets see one good reason why the reaper would release control of its screwdriver and then accuse that screwdirver of failing to open a can of soup. Any good reason will do.

Otherwise Harbinger is just a monologue that goes with the scene. The reason no one says anything specific about the collector general is because only the handicapped would jump to this rediculous conclusion. The collectors are all 50 thousand year old clones of clones of clones. They didn't mention the general because the general is a collector too.

Oh and just so this is clear. The reapers talk "THROUGH" the host. Not to it. Gadamn some people are dense.

You've got to be kidding me right?  We're the ones that are dense?! Is this a joke?! 

The dude CONSTANTLY communicates with the collectors, telling them where to attack, to not retreat, to ignore the dead, to collect human bodies, and the collectors even conduct their own experiments and dissections, negotiations with raiders/slavers, and cetera... What the hell dude?

[DuffyMJ]

marshalleck wrote...

Syokhan wrote...

I always took it as a monologue. Harbinger's a villain, so he's bound to have one

It's this, absolutely. Even down to the whole protagonist barely avoiding their imminent destruction while the bad guy rants and raves. Total cinematic sequence that was never intended to make sense from the characters' points of view.

I swear it's like some people have never watched or read a play in their lives.

Really?  Read a play yourself!! Beats are frequently used as dialog interrupts to change the direction of conversation, such as addressing an off-stage character.  There is clearly a beat between "Human, you have changed nothing..." and the set of lines that begins with "You have failed!"  The point of that beat is to break the dialog between Harbinger >> Shepard and Harbinger >> Collector General

[Bobrzy]

Harbinger is talking to Collector's General, REFFERING to Shepard - like he was watching him and commented his achievements to Collector's:
"Human, you've changed nothing.
Your species has the attention of
those infinitely your greater.
That which you know as Reapers
are your salvation through destruction."

This words were not TO Shepard but ABOUT him.

Last part (You have failed. We will find another way. Releasing control) was literally to Collector's General.

Modifié par Bobrzy, 18 février 2010 - 03:19 .

[Slice Of Bryce]

I thought it was directed at the Collector General because at that little control module he was at, it showed harbinger and it showed the General reaching up to the hologram for help.

[Lonely_Fat_Guy]

DuffyMJ wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Wow people really can't accept reality here.

Lets see one good reason why the reaper would release control of its screwdriver and then accuse that screwdirver of failing to open a can of soup. Any good reason will do.

Otherwise Harbinger is just a monologue that goes with the scene. The reason no one says anything specific about the collector general is because only the handicapped would jump to this rediculous conclusion. The collectors are all 50 thousand year old clones of clones of clones. They didn't mention the general because the general is a collector too.

Oh and just so this is clear. The reapers talk "THROUGH" the host. Not to it. Gadamn some people are dense.

You've got to be kidding me right?  We're the ones that are dense?! Is this a joke?! 

The dude CONSTANTLY communicates with the collectors, telling them where to attack, to not retreat, to ignore the dead, to collect human bodies, and the collectors even conduct their own experiments and dissections, negotiations with raiders/slavers, and cetera... What the hell dude?

lol zennexile is PWND!
only when the reaper takes/assumes total control he can speak trough the collectors.

its funny, samara said it, have 3 humans in a room and you will have 6 difrent oppinions.
sadly zennexile your have an oppinion and we have a fact

makes you rather uhm what were your words again? dense?

as for the final shot, you can see the general even lifting up its right paw for a last cry for help, like dont abandon meeeeee, then looks defeted behind him towards the explotion.

EPIC!

[Gill Kaiser]

At first Harbinger is talking to Shepard, and monologues his whole "Human, you've changed nothing" speech. Then, at the very end, he is talking to the Collector General when he says "You have failed. Releasing control". Harbinger is too arrogant to accept that he is the one who failed.

[T0paze]

I didn't like that scene.

The expression on the Collector General's face when Harbinger released control (a few moments before his death) was disquieting. It suggested that he could feel emotions (fear and anger, in this case). If he can feel emotions, he's not merely an instrument, but rather a slave. And if the Collector's are not simply tools, then it would be wrong to eradicate them - they probably need help, contrary to what Mordin says. After all, they were transformed into slaves against their will by the Reapers.

Modifié par T0paze, 18 février 2010 - 02:22 .

[sticks435]

T0paze wrote...

I didn't like that scene.

The expression on the Collector General's face when Harbinger released control (a few moments before his death) was disquieting. It suggested that he could feel emotions (fear and anger, in this case). If he can feel emotions, he's not merely an instrument, but rather a slave. And if the Collector's are not simply tools, then it would be wrong to eradicate them - they probably need help, contrary to what Mordin says. After all, they were transformed into slaves against their will by the Reapers.

Not to drag this out any further, but like someone already mentioned, Mordin only studied a drone, which consensious seems to be are fully under control, while the CG is the only one to maintain a bit of free will/emotion.