103 réponses à ce sujet

[General Battuta]

I had earlier posted some suggestions of what I perceived as writing failures in ME2.

I just finished a full replay of Mass Effect 1 and 2 using the same character.

I would like to withdraw any criticism I had of Mass Effect 2's writing vs. Mass Effect 1. The main story is more urgent, more gripping, and ultimately just as rewarding. Everything surrounding it is infinitely superior. The subtle foreshadowing (dark energy, Quarian/Geth war) is masterful. The characters are works of art.

Bioware, please don't throw away what you accomplished with Mass Effect 2. I think it is in just about every respect your finest work yet.

[Lmaoboat]

I'm playing through ME1 again, and I have no idea what you're talking about.

[General Battuta]

Mass Effect 1 has some pretty crippling gameplay flaws, but the writing is a bit more heavily expository, the characters a bit more shallow and disconnected, and - worst of all - there's sort of a barrier between you and the world described in the Codex. Aside from the Citadel, you're limited to a few human colonies and dig sites in terms of the diversity and richness you get to interact with.



Not to mention that the ME1 main plot, while awesome (its ending was fantastic) was pretty standard fare. Find the MacGuffins, stop the villain.

[Doug84]

General Battuta wrote...

I had earlier posted some suggestions of what I perceived as writing failures in ME2.

I just finished a full replay of Mass Effect 1 and 2 using the same character.

I would like to withdraw any criticism I had of Mass Effect 2's writing vs. Mass Effect 1. The main story is more urgent, more gripping, and ultimately just as rewarding. Everything surrounding it is infinitely superior. The subtle foreshadowing (dark energy, Quarian/Geth war) is masterful. The characters are works of art.

Bioware, please don't throw away what you accomplished with Mass Effect 2. I think it is in just about every respect your finest work yet.

oh GOD! ITS THE SEVEN SIGN!  FLEE, FLEEEEE!

But seriously, good for you mate; takes alot of balls to change your mind on so public a space.

[TheShady]

[quote]General Battuta wrote...

[quote]Not to mention that the ME1 main plot, while awesome (its ending was fantastic) was pretty standard fare. Find the MacGuffins, stop the villain.[/quote]
How is that any different from ME2? Find the Collectors, invade their base which is conveniently there with the all-knowing EDI telling you what button to push to blow it up.

[General Battuta]

The meat of Mass Effect 2's plot is actually conveyed via loyalty missions. It consists of a series of moral, rather than tactical, set pieces.



There are two big themes: experimentation, and confrontation (you always have to deal with your past.)



The loyalty missions connect the big issues of the Mass Effect universe on a personal level. Mordan is about the genophage. Tali is about the Geth/quarian war. Legion is about machines vs. organics. Grunt is about the Krogan hunt for identity.



In this way, Mass Effect 2 makes the universe central rather than peripheral. It creates personal avatars of the major issues and allows the player to interact with and influence them.

[Sphynx118]

Mass effect 2 is good yes..But the devs held up the story and then sprayed it with an assault rifle cuz thats about the number of plot holes there are

[General Battuta]

Examples? I'm not sure there actually are any.

[newcomplex]

lol. Story pacing and plot structure are more or less my only actual gripes with ME2. I disagree wholeheartedly, the entire game makes you feel like a therapist, the urgency of the original ME is completely lost until after finishing the reaper IFF, the removal of cohesive post mission conferences made the missions themselves seem overall less relevant, the linear, combat driven mission design completely destroyed the excitement of going to a new area.

[SmokePants]

I like your analytical tone, sir. We need more of it around here.

[Sphynx118]

General Battuta wrote...

Examples? I'm not sure there actually are any.

 Who is willson working for and why does he want you dead?

The shuttle part before the normandy crew is abducted?(you suddenly take your WHOLE crew with you out on a mission to a place that isnt specified?)

Kelly/joker not asking about Liara if you romanced her but still asking about Ash/kaidan?

If you romanced Liara you get the EXACT same dialogue as the people who didnt romance her? And no email afterwards(see kaidan/ash).

The council not believing your reaper theory for no logical reason? (cams/instruments on the normady should prove it, sovereigns corpse should prove it, the quarians telling the council that geth dont have that advanced tech should prove it the list goes on)

And those are just a few

Modifié par Sphynx118, 15 février 2010 - 04:32 .

[catabuca]

General Battuta wrote...

The meat of Mass Effect 2's plot is actually conveyed via loyalty missions. It consists of a series of moral, rather than tactical, set pieces.

There are two big themes: experimentation, and confrontation (you always have to deal with your past.)

The loyalty missions connect the big issues of the Mass Effect universe on a personal level. Mordan is about the genophage. Tali is about the Geth/quarian war. Legion is about machines vs. organics. Grunt is about the Krogan hunt for identity.

In this way, Mass Effect 2 makes the universe central rather than peripheral. It creates personal avatars of the major issues and allows the player to interact with and influence them.

These are very, very good points. I'm definitely in the camp that thinks the story was better told in ME1, but I have to give credit where credit's due, and the way these particular character motivations were written was very good.

[Valmy]

Sphynx118 wrote...

General Battuta wrote...

Examples? I'm not sure there actually are any.

 Who is willson working for and why does he want you dead?

The shuttle part before the normandy crew is abducted?(you suddenly take your WHOLE crew with you out on a mission to a place that isnt specified?)

Kelly/joker not asking about Liara if you romanced her but still asking about Ash/kaidan?

If you romanced Liara you get the EXACT same dialogue as the people who didnt romance her? And no email afterwards(see kaidan/ash).

The council not believing your reaper theory for no logical reason? (cams/instruments on the normady should prove it, sovereigns corpse should prove it, the quarians telling the council that geth dont have that advanced tech should prove it the list goes on)

And those are just a few

Nit picker.

I am sure somebody could fill tomes of whines about ME1's plot also.

Besides we have discussed these issues endlessly on this board.  Not everybody is agreed that these are even flaws.  How is it necessarily bad we do not know every single secret?

As for why you take your whole team I thought that was obvious...the ship has to remain behind to process the IFF so you have to launch your shuttle from further out in this case to get to the objective...so you take your whole team so they will be on hand since you are going to have to use the shuttle as your base of operations instead of the Normandy as usual.  As to where you are going...um you kinda picked that yourself.

[Aisynia]

General Battuta wrote...

The meat of Mass Effect 2's plot is actually conveyed via loyalty missions. It consists of a series of moral, rather than tactical, set pieces.

There are two big themes: experimentation, and confrontation (you always have to deal with your past.)

The loyalty missions connect the big issues of the Mass Effect universe on a personal level. Mordan is about the genophage. Tali is about the Geth/quarian war. Legion is about machines vs. organics. Grunt is about the Krogan hunt for identity.

In this way, Mass Effect 2 makes the universe central rather than peripheral. It creates personal avatars of the major issues and allows the player to interact with and influence them.

Well ****in said.

[Wynne]

Sphynx118--The Wilson thing may be fodder for the next game--it's possible that he was working for the Shadow Broker or somebody Shepard screwed over in the first game.

The shuttle part--yes, that is lame. The Liara romance not being referenced is an oversight or possibly a bug. There's overall not enough Liara content but according to people who've looked into the files, a Liara DLC seems to be set up for the future.

Sovereign exploded, and everyone thinks it was Saren's invention anyway. Besides, regardless of whether the Council believes it, should they really tell everyone about a spooky menace that seems to have been neutralized when Sovereign was taken out anyway? So that the whole galaxy will panic? What would widespread panic with no plan for action accomplish?

General Battuta--Overall, I agree. I think the difference is more that in ME1, you have a real connection to the villain you're hunting. Saren is a more complex character, and a character whose motives you understand. Harbinger throws out a lot of weird lines, but ultimately there's no organic slave of the machines to connect with, to wrestle with, to feel like you're following in their footsteps but making the right choices.  Yeah, there's the Collector race, but they're just empty vessels. Tragic, but already so lost there's no point in fighting for them.

While ME2 is better in many ways, I think dealing directly with your true enemy at least once would have been more involving. As it is, Harbinger's statements are a bit too random and vague, though some are very intriguing. While a lot is awesome, I think most people were expecting a sort of personal nemesis as we had in the first game; that didn't really happen this time, and you were very disconnected from the political world which mattered so much in the first game, which is both awesome because it's a change, and not so awesome because it feels like the world itself wasn't much affected by your actions. Probably a survival mechanism to keep from having too many diverging paths in ME3 to keep track of, but this does result in certain things seeming to be missing.

Modifié par Wynne, 15 février 2010 - 04:47 .

[Louis deGuerre]

I was skeptical but hopeful when me2 arrived. I was terrified it would have become some sort of bland FPS.

Thankfully, Bioware has excelled with me2. Better combat, more locations, more content overall, more diverse dialogue, great story (but yes, the main story is more a background for the interactions with your team that really lets you interact with the me universe).

Of course its not perfect, I've got my pet peevs myself (no female love interest for female shepard ?) but it's pretty damn close so great work devs !

The only thing I could say is that you don't have such a close relationship with your teammates as in me1 as there are so many more this time around, but that is a tradeoff I can happily live with.



I also fully endorse General Battuta's excellent post.

[Sphynx118]

Valmy wrote...

Sphynx118 wrote...

General Battuta wrote...

Examples? I'm not sure there actually are any.

 Who is willson working for and why does he want you dead?

The shuttle part before the normandy crew is abducted?(you suddenly take your WHOLE crew with you out on a mission to a place that isnt specified?)

Kelly/joker not asking about Liara if you romanced her but still asking about Ash/kaidan?

If you romanced Liara you get the EXACT same dialogue as the people who didnt romance her? And no email afterwards(see kaidan/ash).

The council not believing your reaper theory for no logical reason? (cams/instruments on the normady should prove it, sovereigns corpse should prove it, the quarians telling the council that geth dont have that advanced tech should prove it the list goes on)

And those are just a few

Nit picker.

I am sure somebody could fill tomes of whines about ME1's plot also.

Besides we have discussed these issues endlessly on this board.  Not everybody is agreed that these are even flaws.  How is it necessarily bad we do not know every single secret?

As for why you take your whole team I thought that was obvious...the ship has to remain behind to process the IFF so you have to launch your shuttle from further out in this case to get to the objective...so you take your whole team so they will be on hand since you are going to have to use the shuttle as your base of operations instead of the Normandy as usual.  As to where you are going...um you kinda picked that yourself.

He asked for examples and i gave them. If you wanna be a fanboy about it then go ahead lol. Those are holes in the storyline regardless and while some may be minor the whole council part is NOT. A bioware dev even said on this forum that he thought it was weird enough to bring it up with mac walters(lead writer)
 
I can go on if you like:

Mordins little seeker bug? Where and when did we get that? And how did we catch it alive without being stunned?
 
Ashley/kaidan suddenly being unfrozen on Horizon while the other colonists arent?

Conrad verner thinking you shoved a gun in his face when you in fact went paragon on him and not renegade?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

I still think that when people argue that ME1 is a better game than ME2 they're arguing from nostalgia.

[Wynne]

Sphynx--Mordin's little seeker was delivered by Cerberus, I'm pretty sure. Ash/Kaidan being unfrozen--not all the frozen people were taken; some were left behind because the Collectors didn't have enough time to take everyone. Conrad Verner is almost certainly a bug, not a plothole.

[SmokePants]

Sphynx118 wrote...

General Battuta wrote...

Examples? I'm not sure there actually are any.

 Who is willson working for and why does he want you dead?

The shuttle part before the normandy crew is abducted?(you suddenly take your WHOLE crew with you out on a mission to a place that isnt specified?)

Kelly/joker not asking about Liara if you romanced her but still asking about Ash/kaidan?

If you romanced Liara you get the EXACT same dialogue as the people who didnt romance her? And no email afterwards(see kaidan/ash).

The council not believing your reaper theory for no logical reason? (cams/instruments on the normady should prove it, sovereigns corpse should prove it, the quarians telling the council that geth dont have that advanced tech should prove it the list goes on)

And those are just a few

Your definition of a plot hole is screwed up. I'm not saying there aren't a handful of minor ones, I'm saying that you wouldn't know an actual plot hole if it was launched at you with a mass accelerator and ruined your day somewhere and sometime.

[Sphynx118]

Wynne wrote...

Sphynx118--The Wilson thing may be fodder for the next game--it's possible that he was working for the Shadow Broker or somebody Shepard screwed over in the first game.

The shuttle part--yes, that is lame. The Liara romance not being referenced is an oversight or possibly a bug. There's overall not enough Liara content but according to people who've looked into the files, a Liara DLC seems to be set up for the future.

Sovereign exploded, and everyone thinks it was Saren's invention anyway. Besides, regardless of whether the Council believes it, should they really tell everyone about a spooky menace that seems to have been neutralized when Sovereign was taken out anyway? So that the whole galaxy will panic? What would widespread panic with no plan for action accomplish?

General Battuta--Overall, I agree. I think the difference is more that in ME1, you have a real connection to the villain you're hunting. Saren is a more complex character, and a character whose motives you understand. Harbinger throws out a lot of weird lines, but ultimately there's no organic slave of the machines to connect with, to wrestle with, to feel like you're following in their footsteps but making the right choices.  Yeah, there's the Collector race, but they're just empty vessels. Tragic, but already so lost there's no point in fighting for them.

While ME2 is better in many ways, I think dealing directly with your true enemy at least once would have been more involving. As it is, Harbinger's statements are a bit too random and vague, though some are very intriguing. While a lot is awesome, I think most people were expecting a sort of personal nemesis as we had in the first game; that didn't really happen this time, and you were very disconnected from the political world which mattered so much in the first game, which is both awesome because it's a change, and not so awesome because it feels like the world itself wasn't much affected by your actions. Probably a survival mechanism to keep from having too many diverging paths in ME3 to keep track of, but this does result in certain things seeming to be missing.

Indeed the willson part could be a thing in me 3 but imo it isnt such a big thing to save for the third game. Just telling us why and who would have solved it.

The Liara part is just horrible oversight or not.

And the council doesnt need to tell everyone about the reapers. They could still deny it publicly and at the same time believe shepard. Im gonna try my writer skills for a moment here:

Shepard: The reapers are working with the collectors and killing humans!

Council: There is no proof supporting that shepard. You defeated the reaper threat already remember? The reapers are trapped in dark space and without sovereing they cant get here. You are getting obsesssed.

Shepard: Im telling you the reapers are up to something!

Council Turian: Random insult*

There that took me 1 min to think up and imo it sure sounds better than biowares choice of having the council go: "LOLOL stfu shepard you are crazy" And then proceding to ignore all evidence

[RhythmlessNinja]

SmokePants wrote...

Sphynx118 wrote...

General Battuta wrote...

Examples? I'm not sure there actually are any.

 Who is willson working for and why does he want you dead?

The shuttle part before the normandy crew is abducted?(you suddenly take your WHOLE crew with you out on a mission to a place that isnt specified?)

Kelly/joker not asking about Liara if you romanced her but still asking about Ash/kaidan?

If you romanced Liara you get the EXACT same dialogue as the people who didnt romance her? And no email afterwards(see kaidan/ash).

The council not believing your reaper theory for no logical reason? (cams/instruments on the normady should prove it, sovereigns corpse should prove it, the quarians telling the council that geth dont have that advanced tech should prove it the list goes on)

And those are just a few

Your definition of a plot hole is screwed up. I'm not saying there aren't a handful of minor ones, I'm saying that you wouldn't know an actual plot hole if it was launched at you with a mass accelerator and ruined your day somewhere and sometime.

^^^^This, how are these plot holes? Sounds like someone just wants an excuse to complain. And the council, really? Since when does th council give a damn about ANYTHING you say until you have hard evidence. IE a sound recording like tali found of saron. AND they even said they went to Ilos and vigil was not functioning any longer for them get more info.

[Sphynx118]

Wynne wrote...

Sphynx--Mordin's little seeker was delivered by Cerberus, I'm pretty sure. Ash/Kaidan being unfrozen--not all the frozen people were taken; some were left behind because the Collectors didn't have enough time to take everyone. Conrad Verner is almost certainly a bug, not a plothole.

Thats what you came up with not bioware. How did cerberus get it if we are the only ones investigating this collector crap? Its not like they send a cerberus team 2 days after we looked around at freedoms progress and one of those bugs is still flying around. Wouldnt be so hard to guess who the abductors are then would it? If the collectors leaved stuff like that behind then the illusive man wouldnt need shep to go find out who the kidnapper is

[WilliamShatner]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I still think that when people argue that ME1 is a better game than ME2 they're arguing from nostalgia.

Nostalgia from a game that's two years old?  What are we, gnats?

[Lukertin]

Sphynx118 wrote...

Wynne wrote...

Sphynx--Mordin's little seeker was delivered by Cerberus, I'm pretty sure. Ash/Kaidan being unfrozen--not all the frozen people were taken; some were left behind because the Collectors didn't have enough time to take everyone. Conrad Verner is almost certainly a bug, not a plothole.

Thats what you came up with not bioware. How did cerberus get it if we are the only ones investigating this collector crap? Its not like they send a cerberus team 2 days after we looked around at freedoms progress and one of those bugs is still flying around. Wouldnt be so hard to guess who the abductors are then would it? If the collectors leaved stuff like that behind then the illusive man wouldnt need shep to go find out who the kidnapper is

Since Bioware didn't explain it, you can offer your own explanations until there is official word on the matter.
Mordin is a genius.  He could have made a prototype seeker bug from Veetor's data.