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[beserker7]

I just wanted to hear some peoples thoughts on the installation of Cerberus in main story of ME2. I just keep thinking there's no point to making them so central to ME2. The Alliance and the Spectres/Council could have easily saved Shepard and had the same motive(stopping the Collectors/Reapers). Instead the Council looks like even bigger tools in ME2 and so does the Alliance, after all the events that ended ME1. 
 
Everyone was established in ME1; Cerberus was a sub-plot rogue villain group, doing some really bad things to people, the Alliance were the relative good guys, and the Spectres were the "best of the best", protectors of the Galaxy.

It seems the ME2 story bringing in Cerberus only makes sense if you were a total Renegade Shepard in ME1. In 1 you could support Terra Firma Party, kill the council, and basically act like Cerberus. If you were Paragon Sherpard, after ME1, theres no way your joining Cerberus, I don't care.

Most of my Shepard saved characters were the Sole Survivor of the Thresher Maw attack, which Cerberus was behind in ME1! Take that personal experience, with all the other stuff they did in ME1, and the fact that my most trusted friend Captain Anderson says in ME2, I can't trust them, and I'm out. No way my Shepard works or trusts them in any way and I don't believe the council or the Alliance would turn there back so easily on the savior of the Citadel, the first human Spectre.

Not hating on Bioware here, just think you could have taken the darker story approach, without making Shepard ally with a known villain group from ME1. Spectres can do anything, go anywhere, remember?  



EDIT: Really sorry, thought I was in the Spoilers forum. Please move. I apologize.

Modifié par beserker7, 15 février 2010 - 08:54 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

No changing to Cerberus is a great choice by Bioware, It changes the setting instead of just reusing the Alliance/Spectre from ME1, And yes a Paragon Shepard will work with even Cerberus to save the lives of the colonist since a Paragon Shepard Cares more about lives than the color of his/her uniform.

[hietala95]

hehe i actuly loved Cerberus.

Why? becuse they look out for humen interest. Not like those idiots in the alliance who do noting but kiss the ass of aliens.



Also havent completed ME2 but so far i love Cerberus. =)

[beserker7]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

No changing to Cerberus is a great choice by Bioware, It changes the setting instead of just reusing the Alliance/Spectre from ME1, And yes a Paragon Shepard will work with even Cerberus to save the lives of the colonist since a Paragon Shepard Cares more about lives than the color of his/her uniform.

I must disagree for all the reasons listed in my initial post.

I would just add that we barely scratched the surface of the Spectres or the Alliance in ME1. These 2 organizations could have certainly been expanded for ME2. Eample; Illusive Man character could have been a vertern Spectre in charge of secret  spec ops in the Terminus or been Alliance spec ops. Cerberus is just too evil and took to many lives for my Shepard and it stretches belief they would even care about the colonists. Wouldn't they be to busy running from prosection from the Alliance and Counsel for their crimes in ME1. 

  

[Varenus Luckmann]

I don't mind it so much, as I lament the fact that the transition is so easy, and instant. No questions asked, you're now part of Cerberus. Sure, you can say "I don't trust you" over and over again, but it doesn't really make a difference. Furthermore, Cerberus are very much the "good guys" this time around. There's no gradual transition or ambiguity - Cerberus are now good guys and you'll bloody damn eat that fact wheter you like it or not!

And the way your status as a Spectre is downplayed is just silly. It's just as silly as how you're still running around in N7 armor for no apparent reason, since you're not part of the military anymore. Makes no bloody sense.

[Varenus Luckmann]

I don't mind it so much, as I lament the fact that the transition is so easy, and instant. No questions asked, you're now part of Cerberus. Sure, you can say "I don't trust you" over and over again, but it doesn't really make a difference. Furthermore, Cerberus are very much the "good guys" this time around. There's no gradual transition or ambiguity - Cerberus are now good guys and you'll bloody damn eat that fact wheter you like it or not!

And the way your status as a Spectre is downplayed is just silly. It's just as silly as how you're still running around in N7 armor for no apparent reason, since you're not part of the military anymore. Makes no bloody sense.

[Sphaerus]

Keeping in mind Shepard is the first human Spectre...

Why would the leader of a radical, at-all-costs pro-humanity organisation be non-human?

[Tyaol]

SPOILER ALERT















1.) Its "easier" to think that the reaper attack ended after they defeated Saren and his Geth...So the council is not helping much.

2.) Alliance got busted bad during the attack...they are trying to recover their losses.

3.) Alliance disbanded the team after Normandy was busted...and grounding Joker too (thats why he left and joined ceberus) but I have no idea how the Doc get to ceberus...(Plot hole to me)

4.) Ceberus is "known" as terrorist group...even if they are power grabbing sons of biatches...they place human interest as their first...(Note: It doesnt mean that Ceberus is immune to rogue activity)

5.) Ceberus is not bogged down by politics (Unlike the alliance and council) They get stuff done











There's many reason why shepard tag along with ceberus (NEW NORMANDY !@!) but i have to end it...in the middle of a class...xD

[Tamcia]

Screw Cerberus.

I remember ME1, I've read the books. Even in game they screwed me over (withholding facts and lying into my face). They treat same humans they say they wish to save as test subjects, lab rats, disposable assets.



I quit in the end. Think I will start my own organization - why not? Everyone seems to have their organization but not Shephard. TIM better not ****** me off again, or else I'll add him to my list that includes but is not limited to: Saren, Sovereign, Collectors, Heretic Geth. Soon Shadow Broker (hopefully) and reapers.

[elitecom]

I agree with you, a little bit, I wish you could show more defiance against Cerberus. Since after my experiences in Mass Effect with Cerberus, I really did not like that I had to work with them. However that is the sign of how great Bioware made Mass Effect 2.



However you can do a lot to work against Cerberus, there is a N7 mission in which you have some choices, where you can chose to either aid the Alliance or Cerberus, but since this is a non spoiler forum, I will not say any more.

[beserker7]

Sphaerus wrote...

Keeping in mind Shepard is the first human Spectre...

Why would the leader of a radical, at-all-costs pro-humanity organisation be non-human?

Of course you would have to change the character species for Spectre spec ops, but could keep human for Alliance spec ops. 

I knew someone would make that point, about my example. 

[Taritu]

The way they handled the Council was probably the stupidest thing in the game. There would be logs from the Normandy and armor suits of the talks with Vigil, Sovereign and Saren, carbon dating of Sovereign and so on. Either the Council or morons or they're lying. Neither makes sense. Bad damned writing. It would have been simple enough for the council to say "Please have your squad members leave for this conversation." Once they left "ok, you're a Spectre again. We can't do much in the Terminus systems, and you've got a new Normandy which is great. You're inside Cerberus now, keep working with them and get as much information as you can. We don't expect you to report in from the Normandy, since it's bugged, but pop by here and keep Anderson informed.  Hopefully you can both stop this problem and deal a blow to Cerberus."

And at the end, if you tell Tim to shove it, you report to the Council, and you're back in.

A real choice, and a council that isn't brain dead.

Modifié par Taritu, 15 février 2010 - 05:09 .

[ReDSH1FT]

I think the change to Cerberus was brilliant. Cmon, how cliche is the Alliance anyway? They're the quintessential wait-til-the-last-minute ignorant cavalry. Cerberus was painted as bad guys in the first game but, like in real life, sometimes looks can be deceiving. Actions speak louder than words, and I know longer dislike Cerberus. Matter of fact, I love Cerberus and I found TiM to be really easy to work with. Here's a blank check, no red tape. Do what you gotta do. Cerberus less law bound than the Spectres.

[dashiva08]

Tyaol wrote...

SPOILER ALERT







1.) Its "easier" to think that the reaper attack ended after they defeated Saren and his Geth...So the council is not helping much.
2.) Alliance got busted bad during the attack...they are trying to recover their losses.
3.) Alliance disbanded the team after Normandy was busted...and grounding Joker too (thats why he left and joined ceberus) but I have no idea how the Doc get to ceberus...(Plot hole to me)
4.) Ceberus is "known" as terrorist group...even if they are power grabbing sons of biatches...they place human interest as their first...(Note: It doesnt mean that Ceberus is immune to rogue activity)
5.) Ceberus is not bogged down by politics (Unlike the alliance and council) They get stuff done





There's many reason why shepard tag along with ceberus (NEW NORMANDY !@!) but i have to end it...in the middle of a class...xD

If you actually talk to Chakwas she actually talks about why she left the alliance.

[Tyaol]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

I think the change to Cerberus was brilliant. Cmon, how cliche is the Alliance anyway? They're the quintessential wait-til-the-last-minute ignorant cavalry. Cerberus was painted as bad guys in the first game but, like in real life, sometimes looks can be deceiving. Actions speak louder than words, and I know longer dislike Cerberus. Matter of fact, I love Cerberus and I found TiM to be really easy to work with. Here's a blank check, no red tape. Do what you gotta do. Cerberus less law bound than the Spectres.

AND you get intels from TiM....(Although he puts you in grave danger...no that shephard cant handle it...xD)
I also dont think the alliance/council would build a new uber Normandy...with an AI on board...xD

[Anacronian Stryx]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

I think the change to Cerberus was brilliant. Cmon, how cliche is the Alliance anyway? They're the quintessential wait-til-the-last-minute ignorant cavalry. Cerberus was painted as bad guys in the first game but, like in real life, sometimes looks can be deceiving. Actions speak louder than words, and I know longer dislike Cerberus. Matter of fact, I love Cerberus and I found TiM to be really easy to work with. Here's a blank check, no red tape. Do what you gotta do. Cerberus less law bound than the Spectres.

In many ways Cerberus functions the way the fist game told us the Spectre's work but failed to implement in the game.

[beserker7]

Taritu wrote...

The way they handled the Council was probably the stupidest thing in the game. There would be logs from the Normandy and armor suits of the talks with Vigil, Sovereign and Saren, carbon dating of Sovereign and so on. Either the Council or morons or they're lying. Neither makes sense. Bad damned writing. It would have been simple enough for the council to say "Please have your squad members leave for this conversation." Once they left "ok, you're a Spectre again. We can't do much in the Terminus systems, and you've got a new Normandy which is great. You're inside Cerberus now, keep working with them and get as much information as you can. We don't expect you to report in from the Normandy, since it's bugged, but pop by here and keep Anderson informed.  Hopefully you can both stop this problem and deal a blow to Cerberus."

And at the end, if you tell Tim to shove it, you report to the Council, and you're back in.

A real choice, and a council that isn't brain dead.

See, that's some smart writing for an smart audience. Good points. Those type of story dialog and scenes just weren't there to make me believe Shepard would just go off with them. Those minor additions would have made the story alot more plausible for a Paragon Shepard..   

Modifié par beserker7, 15 février 2010 - 05:17 .

[ReDSH1FT]

Taritu wrote...

The way they handled the Council was probably the stupidest thing in the game. There would be logs from the Normandy and armor suits of the talks with Vigil, Sovereign and Saren, carbon dating of Sovereign and so on. Either the Council or morons or they're lying. Neither makes sense. Bad damned writing. It would have been simple enough for the council to say "Please have your squad members leave for this conversation." Once they left "ok, you're a Spectre again. We can't do much in the Terminus systems, and you've got a new Normandy which is great. You're inside Cerberus now, keep working with them and get as much information as you can. We don't expect you to report in from the Normandy, since it's bugged, but pop by here and keep Anderson informed.  Hopefully you can both stop this problem and deal a blow to Cerberus."

And at the end, if you tell Tim to shove it, you report to the Council, and you're back in.

A real choice, and a council that isn't brain dead.

The Council has to operate with hard evidence.  As OBVIOUS as it is to us, and our Shepard, they are just outside observers, seeing a wave of geth ships, and one really big sentient ship.  Vigil broke down, there was no other evidence besides Shepards vision.

I can understand why they don't completely subscribe to the Reaper theory, after all, it is REALLY farfetched.  In their position, I probably would have done the same thing, but would have given Shepard the benefit of the doubt due to his accomplishments.

They are alien, and are still apprehensive about humans it would seem.  We just joined the Council after all..

In the end, sometimes it takes an anti-hero like The Illusive Man and his Cerberus to step up to the plate.  I think it's brilliant story telling.

[Tyaol]

Well maybe next time...lets strap a camera on shephard's helmet, and have an implant that can record and project shephard's vision when he activates another beacon

Modifié par Tyaol, 15 février 2010 - 05:22 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

I think it was a stupid idea to even allow the player to visit the citadel or even council space in ME2 - But i guess the game tries to tell us there are truths and then there are political truths, The council and the Alliance doesn't care about madman/woman Shepard because it is political inconvenient, Of cause they know about the thread of the Reapers but they cling unto the hope that the thread died with Sovereign, And having a Specter running around yelling the sky is falling is just bloody inconvenient when you have firmly decided that the sky stays in place.

[DukeOfNukes]

Yeah, I agree. You do it too easily. You join up with Cerberus without even checking in with the alliance. When you run into Kaidan or Ash, the worst you can say is "At least Cerberus gets the job done".



If you resisted joining the group, they should have sent you to the citadel in a shuttle, where you could hear personally that the Alliance and council weren't going to give you any help...do something that makes it seem like you just simply aren't welcome anywhere else...and in order to get this done, you HAVE to work with them.

[Taritu]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

Taritu wrote...

The way they handled the Council was probably the stupidest thing in the game. There would be logs from the Normandy and armor suits of the talks with Vigil, Sovereign and Saren, carbon dating of Sovereign and so on. Either the Council or morons or they're lying. Neither makes sense. Bad damned writing. It would have been simple enough for the council to say "Please have your squad members leave for this conversation." Once they left "ok, you're a Spectre again. We can't do much in the Terminus systems, and you've got a new Normandy which is great. You're inside Cerberus now, keep working with them and get as much information as you can. We don't expect you to report in from the Normandy, since it's bugged, but pop by here and keep Anderson informed.  Hopefully you can both stop this problem and deal a blow to Cerberus."

And at the end, if you tell Tim to shove it, you report to the Council, and you're back in.

A real choice, and a council that isn't brain dead.

The Council has to operate with hard evidence.  As OBVIOUS as it is to us, and our Shepard, they are just outside observers, seeing a wave of geth ships, and one really big sentient ship.  Vigil broke down, there was no other evidence besides Shepards vision.

I can understand why they don't completely subscribe to the Reaper theory, after all, it is REALLY farfetched.  In their position, I probably would have done the same thing, but would have given Shepard the benefit of the doubt due to his accomplishments.

They are alien, and are still apprehensive about humans it would seem.  We just joined the Council after all..

In the end, sometimes it takes an anti-hero like The Illusive Man and his Cerberus to step up to the plate.  I think it's brilliant story telling.

it's not hard to get hard evidence.  If Sovereign is that old, there are scientific tests to date how old it is.  They would show Sovereign existed long before any Geth even existed.  Suits would keep logs of what happened - so Shepard's suit, plus those of whoever was on Ilos with him would have logs of the conversation with Sigil and conversations with Saren and Sovereign.

This is hard evidence, and even if the council thinks that Shepard might tend to be delusional if's a far step beyond that to assume that he's tampering with logs, and that his squad members are lying too.

No, sorry, the council is not acting logically.  It's the worst plot hole in the second game (though not the only one) and as observed, it would make a lot more sense for Paragon Shepards to do it another way.  My main is a paragon, and I spent the entire game thinking "job 1 after this is done is to arrest Tim, and Miranda too, if she hasn't switched sides.  And gee, the renegade in me hopes they resist arrest...."  

[Sniper11709]

Taritu wrote...

The way they handled the Council was probably the stupidest thing in the game. There would be logs from the Normandy and armor suits of the talks with Vigil, Sovereign and Saren, carbon dating of Sovereign and so on. Either the Council or morons or they're lying. Neither makes sense. Bad damned writing. It would have been simple enough for the council to say "Please have your squad members leave for this conversation." Once they left "ok, you're a Spectre again. We can't do much in the Terminus systems, and you've got a new Normandy which is great. You're inside Cerberus now, keep working with them and get as much information as you can. We don't expect you to report in from the Normandy, since it's bugged, but pop by here and keep Anderson informed.  Hopefully you can both stop this problem and deal a blow to Cerberus."

And at the end, if you tell Tim to shove it, you report to the Council, and you're back in.

A real choice, and a council that isn't brain dead.

Carbon dating? You seriously think carbon dating would work in space where that and the possibility of Sovereign being built on different planets (or even off planet) make it impossible to use.

How are the logs proof, a 50,000 year old AI said there was Reapers and that Sovereign was one of them, it's not like it was possibly corrupted or had bad information or possibly lying it's ass off and working with Saren/sarcasm. It dosen't help that Virgil shut down.

They already dismissed the talk with Sovereign  in the first game.

Saren is insane so why would they believe that.

Also we already knew the council was brain dead from the first game.

[MonkeyLungs]

Taritu wrote...

The way they handled the Council was probably the stupidest thing in the game. There would be logs from the Normandy and armor suits of the talks with Vigil, Sovereign and Saren, carbon dating of Sovereign and so on. Either the Council or morons or they're lying. Neither makes sense. Bad damned writing. It would have been simple enough for the council to say "Please have your squad members leave for this conversation." Once they left "ok, you're a Spectre again. We can't do much in the Terminus systems, and you've got a new Normandy which is great. You're inside Cerberus now, keep working with them and get as much information as you can. We don't expect you to report in from the Normandy, since it's bugged, but pop by here and keep Anderson informed.  Hopefully you can both stop this problem and deal a blow to Cerberus."

And at the end, if you tell Tim to shove it, you report to the Council, and you're back in.

A real choice, and a council that isn't brain dead.

Well done. Bravo! Wish it was like this.

This would also open up interesting area for exploring the character of TIM. He would know what you were up to, heck he has no problem with Shepard contacting the council.

The stakes of the game are so big that TIM doesn't have to hide all of his actions anymore ... or, what he is doing with Shep is the biggest distraction move ever and he has some serious business going on in secret that is equally as important as what Shep is doing?

[Farscape-Fan]

All I know is, if i'm still stuck under Cerebrus's thumb in ME3, I ain't gonna be buying it (I think siding the Cereberus was a good notion, with the given story of ME2, but as a predominately Paragon Shep from ME1, I really want to tell Cerebrus to frack off and go back to handing out Spectre Justice™!!)