203 réponses à ce sujet

[Anacronian Stryx]

So the Geth build a Dreadnaught out of very old matirials..what will that prove, And the suit recordings are mearly shep talking to the Geth ship who is lying, who can understand those Geth anyway?

[Khayness]

I really loved the Cerberus focused story. I'm more into motives than point of views and I have to say they made them understandable and interesting. Now they aren't just a bunch of unlucky guys at the wrong place with wrong specimens at the wrong time, but they still have a lot to atone for.

[Sniper11709]

Taritu wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

Taritu wrote...

The way they handled the Council was probably the stupidest thing in the game. There would be logs from the Normandy and armor suits of the talks with Vigil, Sovereign and Saren, carbon dating of Sovereign and so on. Either the Council or morons or they're lying. Neither makes sense. Bad damned writing. It would have been simple enough for the council to say "Please have your squad members leave for this conversation." Once they left "ok, you're a Spectre again. We can't do much in the Terminus systems, and you've got a new Normandy which is great. You're inside Cerberus now, keep working with them and get as much information as you can. We don't expect you to report in from the Normandy, since it's bugged, but pop by here and keep Anderson informed.  Hopefully you can both stop this problem and deal a blow to Cerberus."

And at the end, if you tell Tim to shove it, you report to the Council, and you're back in.

A real choice, and a council that isn't brain dead.

The Council has to operate with hard evidence.  As OBVIOUS as it is to us, and our Shepard, they are just outside observers, seeing a wave of geth ships, and one really big sentient ship.  Vigil broke down, there was no other evidence besides Shepards vision.

I can understand why they don't completely subscribe to the Reaper theory, after all, it is REALLY farfetched.  In their position, I probably would have done the same thing, but would have given Shepard the benefit of the doubt due to his accomplishments.

They are alien, and are still apprehensive about humans it would seem.  We just joined the Council after all..

In the end, sometimes it takes an anti-hero like The Illusive Man and his Cerberus to step up to the plate.  I think it's brilliant story telling.

it's not hard to get hard evidence.  If Sovereign is that old, there are scientific tests to date how old it is.  They would show Sovereign existed long before any Geth even existed.  Suits would keep logs of what happened - so Shepard's suit, plus those of whoever was on Ilos with him would have logs of the conversation with Sigil and conversations with Saren and Sovereign.

This is hard evidence, and even if the council thinks that Shepard might tend to be delusional if's a far step beyond that to assume that he's tampering with logs, and that his squad members are lying too.

No, sorry, the council is not acting logically.  It's the worst plot hole in the second game (though not the only one) and as observed, it would make a lot more sense for Paragon Shepards to do it another way.  My main is a paragon, and I spent the entire game thinking "job 1 after this is done is to arrest Tim, and Miranda too, if she hasn't switched sides.  And gee, the renegade in me hopes they resist arrest...."  

Sorry i know that you haven't time to read my post so i'm repeating myself but i have to say it.

THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC TESTS THAT COULD BE DONE WITHOUT A WHOLE LOT MORE DATA.

You would need to know where it was built,where the materials came from and what it's been exposed to since at the very least.

Modifié par Sniper11709, 15 février 2010 - 05:32 .

[beserker7]

Farscape-Fan wrote...

All I know is, if i'm still stuck under Cerebrus's thumb in ME3, I ain't gonna be buying it (I think siding the Cereberus was a good notion, with the given story of ME2, but as a predominately Paragon Shep from ME1, I really want to tell Cerebrus to frack off and go back to handing out Spectre Justice™!!)

Word. I loved being a Spectre in ME1.  In ME2, I just felt like a tool of the Illusive Man. 

[Anacronian Stryx]

It is WWII you are a RAF pilot who gets shoot down over Belgium, On the ground you discover to your amazement a bunch of German soldiers trying to strengthen a dike who is about to collapse and drown a village full of innocent people, The Germans yell to you that you must help them or the dike collapses.



Do you.



1: Run away trying to contact RAF to send help strengthening the dike even when you know it is extremely unlikely they will help.



2: Help the Germans, There lives at stake, Right now it is all that matters, What comes after comes after.

[Dexter111]

It was rather pointless imo, it had the same kind of feel to it that "Dragon Age" did, e.g. forcing the player to join a faction he has no interest in joining or nothing in common with.

If they had given me the choice to kill Duncan that bastard and go my own way about it I would've... same thing here only you had a little more motivation to stay with them e.g. Miranda, they got you a ship, they actually reconstructed you/ressurected you from the dead and had a goal I could respect (and you weren't forced to side 100% with them or perform some sort of voodoo blood-ritual...).

Modifié par Dexter111, 15 février 2010 - 05:46 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Dexter111 wrote...

It was rather pointless imo, it had the same kind of feel to it that "Dragon Age" did, e.g. forcing the player to join a faction he has no interest in joining or nothing in common with.

If they had given me the choice to kill Duncan that bastard and go my own way about it I would've... same thing here only you had a little more motivation to stay with them e.g. Miranda, they got you a ship, they actually reconstructed you/ressurected you from the dead and had a goal I could respect (and you weren't forced to side 100% with them).

you could say the same about ME1 since that game forces you to join the spectres..and even the Alliance, It's just the nature of these kind of games.

[Schneidend]

Farscape-Fan wrote...

All I know is, if i'm still stuck under Cerebrus's thumb in ME3, I ain't gonna be buying it (I think siding the Cereberus was a good notion, with the given story of ME2, but as a predominately Paragon Shep from ME1, I really want to tell Cerebrus to frack off and go back to handing out Spectre Justice™!!)

Well, you're not under their thumb at all realy. In fact: *SPOILER ALERT*


















You can tell Illusive Man to go screw himself twice at the game's end.

[Tleining]

Why did you post this in the No Spoilers Forum? Would be much easier to discuss without worrying about spoiling anything.



Cerberus poured nearly unlimited ressources into rebuilding Shepard. Neither the Council nor the Alliance could have done that.

Spectres were never portrayed as good. They are Shadow Operatives, who are above the law. They can do whatever they want. Several things i did in ME1 could be considered Warcrimes or obstruction of justice, but since i was a spectre, no one could do a thing about it.

Cerberus was never portrayed as evil. They were a black ops group that acted outside the law (for the alliance!!!), anyone trying to follow them ended up dead, which should be Standard operating procedure for a group like that, true?



As far as Sovereign goes: The council didn't find all of his parts (*gg*), so imagine them telling the world that he was a reaper. Do you think they could maintain order?

You have been gone for two years, no one knew where you were, than there are rumors of you working with Cerberus. Deja vu anyone? Saren, a spectre going rogue, working with dangerous elements, ...., Shepard, a spectre, apparently died, returns working with a dangerous group.

Yeah, no reason not to trust you..



Mind you, i'm not talking about the first time you meet the Council in ME2, the rumors where around before that. Wonder who planted those. *hinthint*

[Derumiel]

beserker7 wrote...

Word. I loved being a Spectre in ME1.  In ME2, I just felt like a tool of the Illusive Man. 

I also prefered being a Spectre than working for TIM. At least at the end you could show that you aren't a tool. I just dislike Cerberus and hopefully you can do something against them in ME3.

[Mak89]

I'm not sure why people have such a problem with this. It's perfect. It completely changes the game's tone and mood. **** the alliance and council. This is about Shepard doing things under the radar and taking it to the reaper threat when no one else can.

[GenkiZer0]

1. If you really listen to how the Allience and council spun the invasion you can see the blatant cover up attempt.



2. Shep IS w/ Cerberus whether he wanted to be or not at this point ( They Brought him back from the DEAD.) So they have to suspect that he can be a Cerberus imposter.



2b. If it wasn't for T'soni almost losing her life to rescue your body from the Shadow Broker (Who was going to sell you to the Reapers.) you'd be another Saren or worse.



3. The Council no matter how dumb they seem have to ensure the Citadel populace that Everyone is safe. (Political truth = A lie to make you feel good.)



4. However this should have been said to the Council or added as an option to have been said once you read the comic and/or spoke to T'soni on illium.



5. Pretty sure the Allience knows all of the above but has no option except this "devils deal" to let you stay w/ Cerberus.



6. My concern is Who or What is TIM... There's something inhumanly wrong w/ him...

"When Evil gives you a hand, it wants your Soul."



Off topic Question: anyone notice the possibility that Jack was to be the original Miranda? Hence the tention after Jack reads the Cerberus Files? They were after all Both created. Jack Biotis are artificially enhanced and Miranda is a Designer Test tube Baby.

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

It is WWII you are a RAF pilot who gets shoot down over Belgium, On the ground you discover to your amazement a bunch of German soldiers trying to strengthen a dike who is about to collapse and drown a village full of innocent people, The Germans yell to you that you must help them or the dike collapses.

Do you.

1: Run away trying to contact RAF to send help strengthening the dike even when you know it is extremely unlikely they will help.

2: Help the Germans, There lives at stake, Right now it is all that matters, What comes after comes after.

That's not really a good analogy, the Reapers would be a better approximation for the Germans, not Cerberus.

What would be a better analogy is this:

British Citizens get fed up of Churchill and decide to move to the low-countries ie Holland.

Some German forces invade Holland and start capturing ex-british citizens

The RAF is powerless to intervene as they don't have air superiority and the British Army has no people on the ground.

You end up working for, probably, the communist resistance, who you loathe, and who loathe you, but you work together to try to end it eg, suicide mission.

[Dexter111]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

you could say the same about ME1 since that game forces you to join the spectres..and even the Alliance, It's just the nature of these kind of games.

Yeah but then the Spectres were a paramilitary Elite Agent force to "preserve the galactic stability". They are above the law and can do whatever the hell they want to get a "job done". Not some sort of terrorist organization experimenting on children and trying to wipe out other species or a cult that lures you in with promises not telling you what has to be done, forcing you to undergo a blood-ritual that will shorten your lifespan in two and kills everyone that doesn't agree with them xD

See a difference?

Modifié par Dexter111, 15 février 2010 - 05:53 .

[GenkiZer0]

1. If you really listen to how the Allience and council spun the invasion you can see the blatant cover up attempt.



2. Shep IS w/ Cerberus whether he wanted to be or not at this point ( They Brought him back from the DEAD.) So they have to suspect that he can be a Cerberus imposter.



2b. If it wasn't for T'soni almost losing her life to rescue your body from the Shadow Broker (Who was going to sell you to the Reapers.) you'd be another Saren or worse.



3. The Council no matter how dumb they seem have to ensure the Citadel populace that Everyone is safe. (Political truth = A lie to make you feel good.)



4. However this should have been said to the Council or added as an option to have been said once you read the comic and/or spoke to T'soni on illium.



5. Pretty sure the Allience knows all of the above but has no option except this "devils deal" to let you stay w/ Cerberus.



6. My concern is Who or What is TIM... There's something inhumanly wrong w/ him...

"When Evil gives you a hand, it wants your Soul."



Off topic Question: anyone notice the possibility that Jack was to be the original Miranda? Hence the tention after Jack reads the Cerberus Files? They were after all Both created. Jack Biotis are artificially enhanced and Miranda is a Designer Test tube Baby.

[obie191970]

I liked the change from the Council to Cerberus. As Shepard, you are basically using Cerberus as a means to an end. The Council and the Alliance abandoned you, declared you dead and have been hiding the truth from the public on the Reapers. And while you can choose to either trust Cerberus or not, you have a common goal - It plays out the same way in the first game. The Council continuously treated Shepard as a petulant child, yet as a Spectre, you could lead your own way. I would bet on Shepard's life, that both the Council and the Alliance make a strong return in ME3.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Dexter111 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

you could say the same about ME1 since that game forces you to join the spectres..and even the Alliance, It's just the nature of these kind of games.

Yeah but then the Spectres were a paramilitary Elite Agent force to "preserve the galactic stability". They are above the law and can do whatever the hell they want to get a "job done",.

..who are in the service of the Council who will quite happily sit back and do nothing while thousands are dying simply because it isn't political convenient at this moment, Yes those Spectres are a whole of a lot better than Cerberus operatives.

[Leonick91]

And i thought Kaiden and specially Ashley were blind, just like most alliance guys... Seems to be that way here to, people just don't want to see facts... You know Cerberus have done some bad things and because of it you wont see facts or reason, ell you sure fit in the alliance



Another fact for you guys, Cerbrus operate largely trough many independent cells, just because one does something and does not mean the organization is evil...



Really hope Cerberus will be involved in ME3, sure I hope the alliance and the council wake up and is of some use by the end, but if it wasn't for Cerberus we would be dead...

[CJFlash]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

It is WWII you are a RAF pilot who gets shoot down over Belgium, On the ground you discover to your amazement a bunch of German soldiers trying to strengthen a dike who is about to collapse and drown a village full of innocent people, The Germans yell to you that you must help them or the dike collapses.

Do you.

1: Run away trying to contact RAF to send help strengthening the dike even when you know it is extremely unlikely they will help.

2: Help the Germans, There lives at stake, Right now it is all that matters, What comes after comes after.

From how everyone is like on this thread, they would pick 1. But Shep would pick 2

[Dewarren2010]

I didn't mind working with Cerberus in the story, but I was upset that we couldn't refer to some of Cerberus' past actions and be a lot mroe sceptical because of it. My Shepard didn't even mention Acuz or Hades Dog or the Rachni. It was kind of disapointing

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

CJFlash wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

It is WWII you are a RAF pilot who gets shoot down over Belgium, On the ground you discover to your amazement a bunch of German soldiers trying to strengthen a dike who is about to collapse and drown a village full of innocent people, The Germans yell to you that you must help them or the dike collapses.

Do you.

1: Run away trying to contact RAF to send help strengthening the dike even when you know it is extremely unlikely they will help.

2: Help the Germans, There lives at stake, Right now it is all that matters, What comes after comes after.

From how everyone is like on this thread, they would pick 1. But Shep would pick 2

Seeing how the colonists wanted to leave the Alliance, it's partially there fault in the first place.

Like in the first game, as we're told by the Council 'We don't build colonies on the borders of the terminus systems, Ambassador''.

[ratzerman]

beserker7 wrote...

Farscape-Fan wrote...

All I know is, if i'm still stuck under Cerebrus's thumb in ME3, I ain't gonna be buying it (I think siding the Cereberus was a good notion, with the given story of ME2, but as a predominately Paragon Shep from ME1, I really want to tell Cerebrus to frack off and go back to handing out Spectre Justice™!!)

Word. I loved being a Spectre in ME1.  In ME2, I just felt like a tool of the Illusive Man. 

Same here.  I hated working for Cerberus.  

[yuncas]

Taritu wrote...

The way they handled the Council was probably the stupidest thing in the game. There would be logs from the Normandy and armor suits of the talks with Vigil, Sovereign and Saren, carbon dating of Sovereign and so on. Either the Council or morons or they're lying. Neither makes sense. Bad damned writing. It would have been simple enough for the council to say "Please have your squad members leave for this conversation." Once they left "ok, you're a Spectre again. We can't do much in the Terminus systems, and you've got a new Normandy which is great. You're inside Cerberus now, keep working with them and get as much information as you can. We don't expect you to report in from the Normandy, since it's bugged, but pop by here and keep Anderson informed.  Hopefully you can both stop this problem and deal a blow to Cerberus."

And at the end, if you tell Tim to shove it, you report to the Council, and you're back in.

A real choice, and a council that isn't brain dead.

I like this alot. Send in an application for a writing position to bioware

[beserker7]

Leonick91 wrote...

And i thought Kaiden and specially Ashley were blind, just like most alliance guys... Seems to be that way here to, people just don't want to see facts... You know Cerberus have done some bad things and because of it you wont see facts or reason, ell you sure fit in the alliance

Another fact for you guys, Cerbrus operate largely trough many independent cells, just because one does something and does not mean the organization is evil...

Really hope Cerberus will be involved in ME3, sure I hope the alliance and the council wake up and is of some use by the end, but if it wasn't for Cerberus we would be dead...

I don't remember the Alliance releasing Thresher Maws on people, kidnapping and performing torturous experiments on children and other test subjects. Cerberus doesn't even care about the colonies, its only a ploy by there political wing to garner support from colonists and to de-stablize the Alliance. They only see the Reaper tech as a means to secure there dominance. They are evil and Paragon Shepard wouldn't stand for it.

Cerberus is a group that's a cross between a criminal species/racial supremacy movement or gang and a rogue criminal Private Military Contractor.

The Alliance is like NATO/UN and the Spectres are like the galaxy's top super cops/agents, IMO. 

Modifié par beserker7, 15 février 2010 - 06:25 .

[Tleining]

@ beserker7

ehrm, Cerberus was an Alliance Black ops Group, that only recently (in ME1) went rogue. So the Thresher Maws could very well have happened before the group going rogue. And Jack was definitely during that time.

How are they more or less evil than the Spectres and as such the Council? Think about what Saren, an Agent of the Council, did while still being a Spectre (mission with Anderson). He got the job done, even though hundreds of innocents died. And that is what Spectres do.

Oh, and you might wanna read about Biotic Acclimation and Temperance Training. Wasn't as cruel as Jacks Facility, but it wasn't good either.