203 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialboats]

Mass Effect 2 wasn't the same without the brass at Arcturus constantly calling on their human SpecTRe to do the impossible, tbh.

[Tylyanhar]

I want to be a Space-pirate and a SpecTRe!

[synergys2k]

GenkiZer0 wrote...

In defence for cerberus if you listen to Jack and pay close attn to her loyalty mission. it seems that most of those "BAD" things that Cerberus was doint were from rogue scientists and triied to keep. the info from TIM, However TIM does find out in the end.
I'm still not trusting TIM. After all TIM wants to replace the Allience w/ Cerberus...
But it just seems that Cerberus is using Shep to kill the biggest threat so they can kill the smaller dog w/ fear. leaving the Allience looking weak and incapable. But What is TIM??? I'm getting a wierd feeling he's more connected to the Reapers than Humanity. Just thinking Reaper control Saren/Collectors at will for years. Why not TIM? plus his info is way too accurate. even for an Info Broker.

The Reapers/Collectors are harvesting humans to build a Human Reaper, and a Human Reaper (or Reaper indoctrinated human) wants to stop them? Are we purposely throwing logic out the window now? 

Modifié par synergys2k, 15 février 2010 - 08:10 .

[Schneidend]

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

So you'd support 1930's Germany?

This thread has just been GODWIN'D!

But, seriously, all the major players in the Mass Effect universe have a Cerberus to do their dirty work. What makes the STG any better than Cerberus? Government oversight? What difference does government oversight make when a governments can be and are just as corrupt as any rogue black ops organization? Government oversight didn't prevent the STG from modifying the genophage to continue playing god with krogan evolution, and in fact approved every part of the project.

Granted, limiting krogan birth rates is undoubtedly in the galaxy's best interests, but it's still the same kind of ethically ambiguous experiment that Cerberus is prone to conducting. The only difference is that in ME1 the writers decided that all of the Cerberus projects should be complete failures caused by terrible accidents that Shepard would have to clean up. If a similar accident had befallen Mordin's team, the salarians might have been infected with a genophage of their own, or krogan would be stricken with malign tumors, increased fertility rates, or complete sterility.

[NINJ4 R4BBID]

Urdnot Wrex: "My people have a saying. Seek an enemy of your enemy, and you find a friend." 

p.s. I'm playing full Paragon... but i'm not so shortsighted as Kaidan/Ashley or Council/Alliance (i will not standby and do nothing while thousands of people are harvested).
p.p.s. Ending has some very good options to make your point as Paragon/Renegade!

Modifié par NINJ4 R4BBID, 15 février 2010 - 08:15 .

[Schneidend]

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

So you'd support 1930's Germany?

This thread has just been GODWIN'D!

But, seriously, all the major players in the Mass
Effect universe have a Cerberus to do their dirty work. What makes the
STG any better than Cerberus? Government oversight? What difference
does government oversight make when a governments can be and are just
as corrupt as any rogue black ops organization? Government oversight didn't prevent the STG from modifying the genophage to continue playing god with krogan evolution, and in fact approved every part of the project.

Granted,
limiting krogan birth rates is undoubtedly in the galaxy's best
interests, but it's still the same kind of ethically ambiguous
experiment that Cerberus is prone to conducting. The only difference is
that in ME1 the writers decided that all of the Cerberus projects
should be complete failures caused by terrible accidents that Shepard
would have to clean up. If a similar accident had befallen Mordin's
team, the salarians might have been infected with a genophage of their
own, or krogan would be stricken with malign tumors, increased
fertility rates, or complete sterility.

[Leonick91]

GenkiZer0 wrote...

In defence for cerberus if you listen to Jack and pay close attn to her loyalty mission. it seems that most of those "BAD" things that Cerberus was doint were from rogue scientists and triied to keep. the info from TIM, However TIM does find out in the end..

yea just playing the mission again right now, the basically say that if TIM would have the full logs and new about their activity they would be screwed. Miranda agrees they went rogue, Cerberus clearly has it's rules and the pragia installation and the cell controlling it broke them

[JamesMoriarty123]

The Alliance and the Council are not an authority in the Terminius Systems. IF htey moved in a fleet or were seen to be operating in that space it could start a war with the planets of those systems. Hence the need for a covert group like Cerberus.

[Sniper11709]

Leonick91 wrote...

GenkiZer0 wrote...

In defence for cerberus if you listen to Jack and pay close attn to her loyalty mission. it seems that most of those "BAD" things that Cerberus was doint were from rogue scientists and triied to keep. the info from TIM, However TIM does find out in the end..

yea just playing the mission again right now, the basically say that if TIM would have the full logs and new about their activity they would be screwed. Miranda agrees they went rogue, Cerberus clearly has it's rules and the pragia installation and the cell controlling it broke them

But what rules did brake? where they not meant to experiment on human children or did they take risks that could comprimise Cerberus. We aren't told so while that does help Cerberus they could still be as bad as the paragons think.

Modifié par Sniper11709, 15 février 2010 - 08:19 .

[Leonick91]

Sniper11709 wrote...

Leonick91 wrote...

GenkiZer0 wrote...

In defence for cerberus if you listen to Jack and pay close attn to her loyalty mission. it seems that most of those "BAD" things that Cerberus was doint were from rogue scientists and triied to keep. the info from TIM, However TIM does find out in the end..

yea just playing the mission again right now, the basically say that if TIM would have the full logs and new about their activity they would be screwed. Miranda agrees they went rogue, Cerberus clearly has it's rules and the pragia installation and the cell controlling it broke them

But what rules did brake? where they not meant to experiment on human children or did they take risks that could comprimise Cerberus. We aren't told so while that does help Cerberus they could still be as bad as the paragons think.

Well judging by how they say it and the fact that Miranda is suprised by several things in there "The kept children here?!(with a very surprised tone)" says a lot for me seeing how long she has been with cerberus...

Also the logs dont say much about something which could be a threat to cerberus but the do mention a lot of questionable things so yea well i have my opinion on the matter

[Poison_Berrie]

I thought the portrayal wasn't that successful.

They did not do a full 360 for Cerberus and the Council/Alliance, but there was a bit of role reversal that seemed forced.



That said it's a choice the designers made with reason. It helped shed a bit of a different light on Cerberus and made it expounded on it's operations, goals and motives. This will probably come back in ME3, with you probably choosing between Cerberus or the Council.

Though they painted the Alliance and Council in a bit of a corner with regards to that. They come off quite bad and they would need to fix that before the choice comes up.

[Costin_Razvan]

People have a false stupid sense that the Specters/Council/Alliance are good guys and better then Cerberus. Specters have killed innocents on many occasions to get the job done ( Saren, Nihilus ) , the Council committed genocide on the Krogan and Rachni, and the alliance was the one who released Element Zero to get human biotics

I find it interesting that most players who play Paragon are selfish dicks who can't see the big picture. ( you know as a good guy should ) TIM isn't a saint, but at least he is willing to do whatever the **** it takes to defeat the reapers, and not deny their existence just because its convenient.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 février 2010 - 08:42 .

[Chuvvy]

Council and the Alliance **** you over between ME1 and ME2,I'm fine with Cerberus.

[beserker7]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

The Alliance and the Council are not an authority in the Terminius Systems. IF htey moved in a fleet or were seen to be operating in that space it could start a war with the planets of those systems. Hence the need for a covert group like Cerberus.

The first part of your statement is a good point, however; 

If you read the first 1-2 pages of this topic, you'll see I don't think its the fact that they used Cerberus, as much as, they failed to put in the extra dialog and scenes with Anderson & The Council for the Paragon side; to make it feel right to work with them.
 
Still, I don't really see the need for Cerberus and wish we were with the Spectres.  I think you could have sent Shepard in 1 ship, into the Terminus, without it causing a  war. Cerberus is not exactly covert or unknown in the Terminus and is probably viewed as bad as the Council is, in Terminus Space.

A thought to be dead Spectre would be cause for concern(like Aria says in Omega), but wouldn't rally the whole system to war with the Council.

[The Real Him]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

People have a false stupid sense that the Specters/Council/Alliance are good guys and better then Cerberus. Specters have killed innocents on many occasions to get the job done ( Saren, Nihilus ) , the Council committed genocide on the Krogan and Rachni, and the alliance was the one who released Element Zero to get human biotics

I find it interesting that most players who play Paragon are selfish dicks who can't see the big picture. ( you know as a good guy should ) TIM isn't a saint, but at least he is willing to do whatever the **** it takes to defeat the reapers, and not deny their existence just because its convenient.

TRUE

THIS CAN NOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH : ALLIANCE/COUNCIL ARE NO SAINTS. READ YOUR CODEX !

The more you wait to fight a war, the more extreme it's resolution will be. That's how you end up with war criminals.

That said, I personnaly would trust an elegant man, that smokes and drinks without complex, over a wuss that speaks about "dire political ramifications"(Hackett/Council/Udina/Anderson = same boat). Bah.

The last part was purely emotional I admit.

Modifié par The Real Him, 15 février 2010 - 08:56 .

[Solid_Shepard12345]

Honestly I was hoping there would be a way to side with Cerberus in Mass Effect 3 if you chose the Paragon ending. While they have done horrible experiments on people it has undoubtedly led them to discoveries of somekind. Gaining knowledge of the husks for example may give some knowledge of Reaper technology or the tresher maw attacks could lead to new forms of defences against them. While yes, they do wish to put humanity above every other species that is far better then us being some tools for the Council to use.



With the Council and the Alliance, even though they claim you are the "right hand of the Council", you feel more like some investigator investigating a murder who, although is allowed step above the law to solve the case and bring the killer to justice, if he doesn't bring "undeniable evidence" he won't be trusted. Whereas with the Illusive Man, he helps you. He forces the Collectors to target a colony to give you a chance at stopping, or atleast learning more, about them. He lets you do as you please yet doesn't whine about every decision you made (I don't see him asking if Shepard "enjoys comitting Genocide") and never interferes with your mission (atleast he didn't lockdown the Normandy).



Maybe it's just because I have a "the end justifies the means" view, but to me, Cerberus is a far more efficient organisation and atleast it'll do what is necessary to destroy the Reapers, unlike the Council.

[synergys2k]

Solid_Shepard12345 wrote...

Honestly I was hoping there would be a way to side with Cerberus in Mass Effect 3 if you chose the Paragon ending. While they have done horrible experiments on people it has undoubtedly led them to discoveries of somekind. Gaining knowledge of the husks for example may give some knowledge of Reaper technology or the tresher maw attacks could lead to new forms of defences against them. While yes, they do wish to put humanity above every other species that is far better then us being some tools for the Council to use.

With the Council and the Alliance, even though they claim you are the "right hand of the Council", you feel more like some investigator investigating a murder who, although is allowed step above the law to solve the case and bring the killer to justice, if he doesn't bring "undeniable evidence" he won't be trusted. Whereas with the Illusive Man, he helps you. He forces the Collectors to target a colony to give you a chance at stopping, or atleast learning more, about them. He lets you do as you please yet doesn't whine about every decision you made (I don't see him asking if Shepard "enjoys comitting Genocide") and never interferes with your mission (atleast he didn't lockdown the Normandy).

Maybe it's just because I have a "the end justifies the means" view, but to me, Cerberus is a far more efficient organisation and atleast it'll do what is necessary to destroy the Reapers, unlike the Council.

If you have an "the end justifies the means" view, why did you destroy the Collector ship / Reaper tech?

[Sniper11709]

beserker7 wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

The Alliance and the Council are not an authority in the Terminius Systems. IF htey moved in a fleet or were seen to be operating in that space it could start a war with the planets of those systems. Hence the need for a covert group like Cerberus.

Still, I don't really see the need for Cerberus and wish we were with the Spectres.  I think you could have sent Shepard in 1 ship, into the Terminus, without it causing a  war. Cerberus is not exactly covert or unknown in the Terminus and is probably viewed as bad as the Council is, in Terminus Space.

A thought to be dead Spectre would be cause for concern(like Aria says in Omega), but wouldn't rally the whole system to war with the Council.

You really didn't pay any attention at all to the ME1 story line.

You know how i said i had the right to respond to stupid posts, well this is last time i decide to exercise that right in relation to you anymore, i can only take so much stupidity from one source.

[synergys2k]

beserker7 wrote...

The first part of your statement is a good point, however; 

If you read the first 1-2 pages of this topic, you'll see I don't think its the fact that they used Cerberus, as much as, they failed to put in the extra dialog and scenes with Anderson & The Council for the Paragon side; to make it feel right to work with them.
 
Still, I don't really see the need for Cerberus and wish we were with the Spectres.  I think you could have sent Shepard in 1 ship, into the Terminus, without it causing a  war. Cerberus is not exactly covert or unknown in the Terminus and is probably viewed as bad as the Council is, in Terminus Space.

A thought to be dead Spectre would be cause for concern(like Aria says in Omega), but wouldn't rally the whole system to war with the Council.

The Council doesn't give Spectres ships. The Spectre needs to find his own passage, at least that's my understanding.

The Council believes the Reapers do not exist.

The Council can't or won't investigate the disappearing human colonies because, "...it's strictly a human problem." 

So, why would the Council be sending Shepard into the Terminus Systems? 

[Poison_Berrie]

Solid_Shepard12345 wrote...
Honestly I was hoping there would be a way to side with Cerberus in Mass Effect 3 if you chose the Paragon ending. While they have done horrible experiments on people it has undoubtedly led them to discoveries of somekind. Gaining knowledge of the husks for example may give some knowledge of Reaper technology or the tresher maw attacks could lead to new forms of defences against them. While yes, they do wish to put humanity above every other species that is far better then us being some tools for the Council to use.

There is off course the rather unfortunate fact that as long as you are some poor slob or a nobody, you have to fear you life with Cerberus at the reigns. Whether alien or human you're gonna be cannon-fodder/lab-rats at the whim of Cerberus. 
But hey, at least your unwilling death helps their tests in someway, what a relieve to know.

Maybe it's just because I have a "the end justifies the means" view, but to me, Cerberus is a far more efficient organisation and atleast it'll do what is necessary to destroy the Reapers, unlike the Council.

It kinda makes me wonder, with all the people sharing this view (me partially included) whether this is actually a set up to make them look like bastards and ineffectual or whether they're going to do another flip and make them seem competent and have them look better in your eyes. 

[Mendelevosa]

Well the Council already said in the beginning of the game that they and the Alliance would not help out the colonies in the Terminus systems. And Cerberus is the only group willing to help those colonists. If I were Shepard, I would join Cerberus as well. The Council only proved themselves to be simple-minded ignorant ****s. So screw them.

[IronVanguard]

Hopefully in ME3 you get to choose.



Or heck, maybe work with neither if you like. You're Shepard. Spectre or not, Cerberus or not. Who the hell is gonna stop you?

[Cavegeta]

I like the new Cerberus angle. It adds more of the whole "Be careful when you fight monsters..." aspect to the game (more so than ME1). It did feel forced though. TIM was fully aware of the goings on in Ascension and I don't recall any explanation for those events in the game.

[obie191970]

I think the people upset at working for Cerberus in ME2 are looking at the Alliance and Council from ME1 with rose colored glasses. Aside from Captain Anderson, who was really on your side in ME1? Udina was an absolute jerk the entire game who ultimately ends up grounding the Normandy. And the Council, outside of giving you the tip of the Salarian distress signal from Virmire, was a group that was absolutely no help at all. On top of that, they completely ignored your plea's on the real danger involved with Sovereign. At least with Cerberus and TIM, you have no preconceptions on what you are dealing with.

[thompsonaf]

Taritu wrote...

The way they handled the Council was probably the stupidest thing in the game. There would be logs from the Normandy and armor suits of the talks with Vigil, Sovereign and Saren, carbon dating of Sovereign and so on. Either the Council or morons or they're lying. Neither makes sense. Bad damned writing. It would have been simple enough for the council to say "Please have your squad members leave for this conversation." Once they left "ok, you're a Spectre again. We can't do much in the Terminus systems, and you've got a new Normandy which is great. You're inside Cerberus now, keep working with them and get as much information as you can. We don't expect you to report in from the Normandy, since it's bugged, but pop by here and keep Anderson informed.  Hopefully you can both stop this problem and deal a blow to Cerberus."

And at the end, if you tell Tim to shove it, you report to the Council, and you're back in.

A real choice, and a council that isn't brain dead.

The problem is...real governments do act like the council citadel. I work for the G, I've seen the most crazy, dumbest, retarded decisions first hand. The council is not interested in saving the galaxy, they want to keep their cush jobs. Just like every other elected/appointed government official.