359 réponses à ce sujet

[Ladi]

If you won't put kill one person to save a hundred, then the two end-game paragon decisions are even less justifiable. In the first, you're killing hundreds (the Alliance ships and service men) to save thousands (the Destiny Ascension). In destroying the Collector base, you aren't even saving people: you're just killing far more people (those who would survive in a better-armed galaxy) in the name of preventing a differently unequal galaxy.

In either case, the Renegade decision sacrifices fewer people in the name of more.

Nah, the important word there is "kill". I think the argument commonly posed is would you push a person onto the train tracks in order to stop a runaway train with 100 passengers. Might seem like a minor distinction, but it's an important one.

So has the Council. The Council's done more evil in both number and depth than Cerberus has. The Council condones genocide as a matter of policy: it's even the standing military doctrine of the Turians.

They seem quite forward thinking of late. Genophage and Rachni were thousands of years ago, carried out by different people. Cerberus's evil experiments were a couple of years back, under the purview of TIM.

Edit: quote box

Modifié par Ladi, 25 avril 2010 - 11:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ladi wrote...

If you won't put kill one person to save a hundred, then the two end-game paragon decisions are even less justifiable. In the first, you're killing hundreds (the Alliance ships and service men) to save thousands (the Destiny Ascension). In destroying the Collector base, you aren't even saving people: you're just killing far more people (those who would survive in a better-armed galaxy) in the name of preventing a differently unequal galaxy.

In either case, the Renegade decision sacrifices fewer people in the name of more.

Nah, the important word there is "kill". I think the argument commonly posed is would you push a person onto the train tracks in order to stop a runaway train with 100 passengers. Might seem like a minor distinction, but it's an important one.

But it's not one that exists in the context of the decisions, since you make an active choice. If you choose to save the Destiny Ascension, you are actively telling 5th Fleet to get engaged and fight a battle they don't have to. You are pushing them on that track. If you choose the destry the Collector Base, you have people already sitting on the track and you're pushing the switch to send the train barreling down right over them.  (As well as the, you know, genocide of the Collector species, but they don't count.)

So has the Council. The Council's done more evil in both number and depth than Cerberus has. The Council condones genocide as a matter of policy: it's even the standing military doctrine of the Turians.

They seem quite forward thinking of late. Genophage and Rachni were thousands of years ago, carried out by different people. Cerberus's evil experiments were a couple of years back, under the purview of TIM.

Edit: quote box

Over the last thousand years, the Genophage has not been stopped or
lifted.

200 years ago, the Council (possibly still including  the same Asari you see now) not only stood by as the violent AI geth proceeded to win and genocide the Quarian species to a pittance of its former self, but then exiled the survivors from all Citadel space.

20 years ago, the Turians mobilized for their genocidal form of total war against Humans.

Since then, the Salarians and Asari have been positioning the Turians and Humans against eachother.

Since then, Mordin actively re-adapted the genophage when it was losing its
potency. There are even insinuations that the Salarians have another genophage developed for humans, if necessary.

All that time they've tolerated the Spectres ranging from Nihlus (who even Samara was opposed to) to Saren.

I'd also like to point out that anything that happened prior to 6 monthes before ME1 happened under the purview of the Alliance and the Council, as Cerberus was still a black ops wing of the Alliance at that time. So things such as the biotic ship accidents, political assassinations, and even Akuze happened while the Alliance still claimed (secret) control over Cerberus.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
So has the Council. The Council's done more evil in both number and depth than Cerberus has. The Council condones genocide as a matter of policy: it's even the standing military doctrine of the Turians.

Uh, no it isn't. That is explictly stated here.

[Dean_the_Young]

You do have some understand what 'defeat an adversary so completely that they remove any threat of having to fight the same opponent more than once' is a euphemism for, correct? Here's a hint: when the Greeks fought Troy, they made sure they wouldn't have to fight it again.

The Turians performed orbital bombardment on human cities in order to take out 3-4 man fire teams, and that was on a lightly populated colony with a small garrison, before they mobilized for total war. Every last individual of a group doesn't have to die in order to be considered genocidal. You can be as humane as you want to them after you kill them in great car load lots, but it doesn't change it into something else.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 avril 2010 - 02:24 .

[Zulu_DFA]

In any case, "sharing" technology happens only on business terms. We "share" our tech with you, you give us something we like in exchange... It would seem Somalia and Bangladesh have not and aren't going to see much "sharing"...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You do have some understand what 'defeat an adversary so completely that they remove any threat of having to fight the same opponent more than once' is a euphemism for, correct? Here's a hint: when the Greeks fought Troy, they made sure they wouldn't have to fight it again.

The Turians performed orbital bombardment on human cities in order to take out 3-4 man fire teams, and that was on a lightly populated colony with a small garrison, before they mobilized for total war. Every last individual of a group doesn't have to die in order to be considered genocidal. You can be as humane as you want to them after you kill them in great car load lots, but it doesn't change it into something else.

If it was a euphemism for that, then why would the very sentence previously say that it was not the case?

"The Turians do not exterminate their enemies, but they do exterminate their enemies."

[Ladi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Over the last thousand years, the Genophage has not been stopped or
lifted.

200 years ago, the Council (possibly still including  the same Asari you see now) not only stood by as the violent AI geth proceeded to win and genocide the Quarian species to a pittance of its former self, but then exiled the survivors from all Citadel space.

20 years ago, the Turians mobilized for their genocidal form of total war against Humans.

Since then, the Salarians and Asari have been positioning the Turians and Humans against eachother.

Since then, Mordin actively re-adapted the genophage when it was losing its
potency. There are even insinuations that the Salarians have another genophage developed for humans, if necessary.

All that time they've tolerated the Spectres ranging from Nihlus (who even Samara was opposed to) to Saren.

I'd also like to point out that anything that happened prior to 6 monthes before ME1 happened under the purview of the Alliance and the Council, as Cerberus was still a black ops wing of the Alliance at that time. So things such as the biotic ship accidents, political assassinations, and even Akuze happened while the Alliance still claimed (secret) control over Cerberus.

But the council doesn't actually have power over the actions of each race's individual government, of members or associate members (hence the craziness Cerberus got up to while it was under the Alliance). I got the impression that the Salarians were acting independently when they reissued the genophage - it's clearly not common knowledge.

As for the Geth, the Quarians technically started it. They ended up breaking Council laws against creating AI (however inadvertently) and their retaliation was to attempt genocide on the sentient race they had created.

The game explains at great length that Justicars are crazy - Samara would have killed that police officer who had done nothing wrong to uphold her code. Pretty much the only reason she doesn't kill Renegade Shep is because of her oath (an aside - does she say anything interesting if you take her on Zaeed's loyalty and choose to ignore the refinery workers?).

Good point about Cerberus being under Alliance control, but that doesn't help the humans' case any. Positioning the Turians (established, trusted) against the humans (upstarts, potentially dangerous to the status quo) is only common sense. And the Council intervened to prevent the first Turian/Human war from escalating anyway.

[Habelo]

One thing i find disturbing is that the batarians get the humans on their knees in ME2- according to the galacticall news.



Thats why i have decided to make another playthru where i save the council then save the reaper base, to even out the power. We cannot get pushed around by terrorists now can we.

[Vicious]

Saving them is right. it blows but hey, they make you a Spectre again.



Udina is simply worthless. Why we can't kill him I have no idea. He is a completely narcassistic jackass and by joining the council he no longer has any need to make nice with Shepard... so he doesn't.



If all else fails, remember, when making a DECISION.



Paragon = Correct.



Renegade = Incorrect.



Unless you're just having a conversation, then they both work.

[Wildecker]

Just my opinion, but ...

Your decision in ME decides about the level of cooperation you will get from the other races when it's showdown time. If the Alliance sacrificed ships and crews to save a council of other races, they'll consider you trust-worthy and may well bleed for you, too.

If you sacrificed their council and the Destiny, they will suspect you being prone to throwing their lives in the way of your enemy like expendable cannon-fodder and may only start to work with you when it's already too late.

Keep in mind that neither the original council nor its replacement buys into the Reaper story. They will only wake up when word spreads about something massive hitting the galaxy, so let's pray the Reapers start with the Batarians ...



Whether you keep the Collector Base intact or not eventually decides about the level of technology available to the humans - I don't believe the Illusive Man is into sharing such stuff with the other races.



All tied up, my guess is that if you saved the original council and the Solar system comes under attack by a Reaper task force, the council will send reinforcements ASAP, as huge a force as they can get under way. While if you left the original council to die, you're on your own and won't make it without lots of salvaged tech from the Collector base.



So much for the setting. YOUR part as Shepard will be to bring enough friends into the battle to make a difference. That might be the remains of the Batarian Navy, the first Rachni dreadnaught since their extinction, a combined Quarian/Geth detachment, all of them or something completely different ...

[Wildecker]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...


All tied up, my guess is that if you saved the original council and the Solar system comes under attack by a Reaper task force, the council will send reinforcements ASAP, as huge a force as they can get under way. While if you left the original council to die, you're on your own and won't make it without lots of salvaged tech from the Collector base.

My Council is all human so why wouldn't they send the fleets to defend Earth?

I doubt that the Turian parts of the fleet will respond to such an order. If there are any of them left, that is.
Your all-human council may relocate its fleet as it sees fit. Just don't rely on the others "seeing the light" and rallying at your side while your ships are busy defending Terra. So the Renegade way comes down to "It's every race for itself, suckers!"

There may be an option to "change the mood" if you bring your entire naval strength to help out the Batarians in their hour of need and help save their homeworld, suffering sever casualties in the process. But I doubt most Renegades will even consider that course of action.

Modifié par Wildecker, 26 avril 2010 - 11:16 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...


All tied up, my guess is that if you saved the original council and the Solar system comes under attack by a Reaper task force, the council will send reinforcements ASAP, as huge a force as they can get under way. While if you left the original council to die, you're on your own and won't make it without lots of salvaged tech from the Collector base.

My Council is all human so why wouldn't they send the fleets to defend Earth?

Yeah... lonely Alliance Navy vs 20000 Reapers for example.
If original Council will be killed during Coup i will execpected that for example Turians first join Repaers in effort to permanent wipe out humanity from the face of the galaxy than come to Eatrh's aid.

Let me tell you this, Citadel Council is similar to UN Security Council where only fife Nuclear superpowers have seat whit decisive vote right.(heck even India nad Pakistan still don't have such seats in that Council despite fact that they are nuclear powers.)
And if you listening to Avina's explanation why neitherVolus or Hanars for example don't have Council seat because they won't contribute whit maintaining galactic stability since they don't have any military fleet or land forces.
Volus Clans are merchants so they contribute to galactic stability in different way than Turians and thier sheer military power.

Citadel Council is not Galactic Senate where everyone should have voting right because pretty soon such Council would be locked down in procedural chaos, that's why they chose to elect three major Galatic superpowers to create such Security Council instead of creating gathering full of whinning at each other politicans like Udina.

I read many posts "Oh but Council don't even move a small finger in left shoe to help stop the Collectors".
Very true because those colonies lays OUTSIDE CITADEL JURISDICTION and if you pay attention what that mechanic on Horizon says, they move there to GET AWAY from ALLIANCE and  Council RULES, so in other word they made very logic and forced by nobody choice to reject Aliiace/Citadel protection.

And by the way how Collectors known that attack on those colonies won't be answered whit Citadel/Alliance retlitations?
Trials and errors tactic?... or they known that from rather good informed source?

It's true that ME 2 Council approach to Shepard was dictated by only one goal...
To completely bleach Cerberus from any responsability for ME 1 events and furthermore made him only galatic faction who gives a single credit of care about Reapers.

When ME 1 end whit saved old Council indicates pretty clear that Drew Karpyshyn planned to gives Shepard FULL COUNCIL SUPPORT in fight of the Reapers... but then comes Mr Walters and simply throw Drew's ME 2 scenario out of the window because he have completely different "vision" plainly killing ME as logical trilogy.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I seriously doubt that Asheer-Kahn, thats the same "Punish the Renegade" BS that I've heard from Paragons all over the place. THat decision was to ensure humanities dominance in the galaxy, or should I say nudge it towards that.

[Asheer_Khan]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I seriously doubt that Asheer-Kahn, thats the same "Punish the Renegade" BS that I've heard from Paragons all over the place. THat decision was to ensure humanities dominance in the galaxy, or should I say nudge it towards that.

*Sigh...*
Please explain me WHAT GIVES US RIGHT to plainly destroing order lasted from thousand of years?
How long humanity was granted a priviledge to become a part of Citadel community?
About 40 damn years...
When Asari discovered Citdel and start forming new galactic order  first humans still struggles hiding in caves and prays to thier gods to wake up next morning.

No... humanity is not ready to become a part of something bigger and i seriously doubt ever will UNLESS humanity will accept fact that they are NOT GALACTIC MARVEL which deserve to recive everything on golden plate.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Its not about whats right its about what we want and what we strive for. In that position the neutral option and the Renegade option puts Humanity at the forefront. Its not about fairness, you are playing as a Human and you are looking out for Humanities interest. Plus that situation the neutral option plays out the way it does because of the situation that is presented, one could only assume that Sovereign was too dangerous to save the Ascension.



Just because the Asari, Salarians and the Turians have been at the Citadel longer doesn't give them the right to lord over humans.