278 réponses à ce sujet

[Madecologist]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Actually, bad writing is all it takes.

You can't have a three act love story without the second act.

I agree, be it a continuation/re-kindling or moving on story, they need their 2nd act. What will be the romantic evolution of this in ME3 "I am sorry I was like that". As for the moving on resolution, having her coming in and accusing you of cheating/leaving her would make her look like a ****. Actually I don't think Ash and Kaiden can really accuse you of cheating either, they can go all emo that you did not give it a chance to work it out and replaced them so easily (if handle right, probably have them agree it had to happen). Being miffed you moved on so easily (while they struggled for theirs).

Liara though, any accusation levied against you in ME3 would make her sound pretentious. I can imagine Liara making her accusation, "Shepard, how could you!" At which TaliGarrus would accuse her back, "where were you when Shepard had to face near certain death, where were you when his life was thrown into chaos?" Miranda would probably just laugh and pull Shepard away, while Jack would try to make her fit into a coffee cup. Jacob would let Shepard handle it, while Thane would be the only one try to reconcile with Liara (seeing that she is... disconnected).

Sadly the more I look at it, and the more I think about it.. I think Liara is really being turned into a potential fallen character (with the redemption of her being the happy romantic solution). I could list the evidence to it, but that will upset or sadden the Liara fans.

Modifié par Madecologist, 16 février 2010 - 12:23 .

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Did I say she wouldn't come back? I just mean it won't make sense as far as the characters are concerned. As written, there is no Shepard/Liara romance in ME2, and no indication that there ever was one. Neither of them acknowledge any feelings, except for Liara's "couldn't let you go" semi-apology, to which Shepard basically doesn't react to. They are both cold and businesslike towards each other, but not in any way that would constitute a "lover's quarrel" or a troubled romance. Liara is obsessed with her private vendetta over some random "friend", and while she still has use for Shepard's hacking skills, she basically snubs his/her requests for aid against the Reaper threat in return. That friend must have been some "friend", to make her completely forget about the big picture and the axe hanging over the fate of all intelligent life in the galaxy...

I don't doubt that the devs will be dragging her wrecked ruin of a character back to ME3. I just wonder how on earth are they going to make the two get over that extremely awkward reunion on Ilium. Especially if they are tone deaf enough to have Liara accuse Shepard of cheating on her. What was there to stay "faithful" to? Yes, Shepard does gaze at the picture near the end. But Liara is right there on Ilium. Why can't s/he got to her and tell her how this might be the last time they see each other? Get some closure, take her flowers, take her out to dinner, break up with her, kiss her, kill her, do something, ANYTHING, to further the so-called 2nd act of a so-called 3 act love story?

Great post, sums everything up nicely.

[Nozybidaj]

Sharn01 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Exactly, Ash and Kaiden have a second act. Albiet a small and under expectation role. But it was there. You get shifts in the dialogue and even in responses, and get to talk about them to Joker, Kelly, and even the Illusive Man (even if they were just a friend). The famous email you get later where they reveal things are not that simple (to some that is heartwretching, to others it is too little too late). So there is a form of second act for them.

Liara has nothing except for the awkward kiss. Her second act is more of a Footnote, or passing wind on the shores of what we call Shepard's life. Oh we might get a DLC... well that be nice, but well it isn't here now is it.

The only possible second act Liara has if you fill it up yourself. To me as I see it, I see her becoming a tragic antagonist (possiblely redeemable, easier if you are "true to her" and harder if you "ditched her" (the middle challenge being she was just a friend)). So her second act is her falling. In that regards Bioware succeeded I guess. Damn those that gave her the finger and found someone us. Actually I wouldn't mind that resolution, it be tragic as all hell. It be enough to make my Shepard feel sorry he moved on.

Not sure this what Liara fans would want though.

Your evil for even suggesting this, we all think it, we just dont want it out in the open because the idea of it makes us want to puke.

Agreed, but seeing the hatchet job BW is doing to the character I could totally see it. 

[Nozybidaj]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Liara fans are doing the best they can

Some might say trying too hard

Last gasps from a dying character fandom. Some of us haven't quite grasped how thorough the wrecking was, and how deliberately done. It'll all be over soon enough.

Okie Dokie.

Yeah, I'm still just thrashing about hoping for some kind of comment or confirmation that there is a ray of light at the end of the tunnel that I know is not going to come.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nozybidaj wrote...
Yeah, I'm still just thrashing about hoping for some kind of comment or confirmation that there is a ray of light at the end of the tunnel that I know is not going to come.

Don't go towards the light!!

[Nozybidaj]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
Yeah, I'm still just thrashing about hoping for some kind of comment or confirmation that there is a ray of light at the end of the tunnel that I know is not going to come.

Don't go towards the light!!

I already have.  It's called ME1, just started a brand new game last night.

[Madecologist]

Even I who has given up on the character as a player, and had my Liara/Shep move on, still want a plausable consequence that ties in the fact Liara changed and he moved on. I do not believe in retcons. The story has to continue from where it is at now. Having Liara accuse my Shep of cheating and getting on a moral high horse would just be... so unbelievable now and heck actually offensive and make her seem even more wacked.

I think that is why I did not like when the lead director used the term cheat. I felt a certain moral high horse mentality on their part. You can't give us "this" and then get all moral on us about moving on. It is like trying to get out of a bad relationship and your lover accuses you of being an ass for leaving them. Like the right thing to do was to stay in a bad relationship. Like I said, it is not just us that have to face the consequences of our actions, but they do too. ME1 LI can't go about doing whatever they feel like (or have the writers make them do whatever they want) and not have things go bad for them from the players perspective. My Shep will not be a doormat.

It is not just a matter of Shepard failing them, in many cases it could be them failing Shepard. In the case of Liara this divide is clearer. Not like we are doing choices in vacuum. Reaping what you sow goes both ways.

Modifié par Madecologist, 16 février 2010 - 01:00 .

[nitefyre410]

Madecologist wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Okay guys its not cheating if you died and came back from the dead... please refer to "How to be a playa" handbook

Article 15 paragraph 2..

"Death makes all previous relationships null and void..."

Oh lord, you do realise. Liara gave your body to Cerberus. So she knows you were dead. See it was all a elaborate scheme to break up with you. I mean... she did not hate you so much as to kill kill you. But she wanted to make sure the relationship was voided! TIM knows this.. hence why he says you can not trust her. That explains why Tali/Garrus try their luck, they know you are available again by the code. It all coming into focus now.

On a serious note, what is defualt Shep, does he have a ME1 LI, I guess not. It is still funny that they use the opposite gender Human in their intro (I think it is to hint that Kaiden/Ash will be romancable in a ME2/3 clean start in 3.). I just think the whole Udina is on the Coucil is funny. I can see Admiral Anderson, "Go back and play ME1 your fool and get me on the Council."

 
  
On your first comment... Thats Right see TIM read his hand book... can't argue  the pimp of a man that has a Sun for his screen saver.  (yes i know she knows your dead but not every reads the hand book) 

On Serious note through i just think  that players  are putting to much  weight into the whole... "Well I cheated on my LI from ME 1.. Dire  ramifications idea."  The only  one I can see even getting remotely upset  or even having the right too would Liara considering all she did to get your body back(And i am being nice  by giving that much wiggle room)  As far  as Ashley/Kaiden  that relationship  end on Horizon   so they have no room to argue.  I can't see Ashley going into some teenage school girl fit  over you finding a   new LI that would be too OOC for the character that they established. Me personally  I'm just turned off to  whole LI from ME 1 coming back to  cause a  issues with your  ME 2 LI   it smacks of the Daytime TV drama to me. I don't want this game to turn into "As the Galaxy Turns" 

[Madecologist]

Evidence I have that Liara is going the path of the Fallen is many. First of all, she has you hack terminals and do acts that award you renegade points (from a character that was sickingly Paragon in ME1). The only quest that can give Paragon points is if you do not fall into the trap. During the conversation you can accuse her of being obsessed and warn her not to give in to temptation (a Rene and a Para statement to the same effect). Comparison that she might become like her mother comes up a few times. Her threat is indentical to her mother's. I need to remind her mother had noble intentions (to control the power and influence of Saren) but it led her down a dark path.

She always talks about how she has to do this, how it is for Shepard and her friend. No matter what you say, she has to do this. She will do what it takes, and says some very agressive and violent things too. Also, her body language shows a more vicious, aggressive poster. Finally she claims she is doing what she is doing of her own free will, where ever it may take her. This is a path of her own choosing. Also if you argue with her, she says she doesn't want to. She doesn't want to loose the very few friends she has left. So she even acknowledges her path is causing her to loose friends. Yes she wants to keep Shepard as one, but her warning is interesting. What if Shepard kept arguing with her, was she worried Shepard will break off the friendship, or is she more worried she will do it herself just so she can focus back on her vendetta?

This is not just clues she is falling, but that she knows she is, and doesn't want to be helped. She will fullfill her vendetta and willingly go down the path it will lead her. I do not know about you, but all this screams of "I am turning Evil!"

[Wompoo]

Doesn't bother me what BW does with the LI's from both ME1 and 2... they are, a little shallow, story little and forgettable. Having more fun sparing/flirting with Kelly, then all the others put together.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Littledoom wrote...

This thread depress me to much at the moment

Me too, although I get the feeling we're both depressed for wildly different reasons.

[Madecologist]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Me personally  I'm just turned off to  whole LI from ME 1 coming back to  cause a  issues with your  ME 2 LI   it smacks of the Daytime TV drama to me. I don't want this game to turn into "As the Galaxy Turns" 

See that is why Grunt and Legion are there (Garrus too). They are there to make sure it doesn't happen. Garrus and Legion take up Sniping positions while Grunt charges in. Deflecting any drama that ME1 LI can cause. They got your back.

I think the simple solution is to kill off all ME1 LI and then flog Casey for his choice of words in interviews. Everyone is happy, or at least have nothing to complain/worry about anymore (except Casey... who got flogged).

*note to self, flogging lead directors in their own game's forums.. not a good idea*

[+15 Renegade]

Modifié par Madecologist, 16 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Littledoom wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Littledoom wrote...

This thread depress me to much at the moment

Me too, although I get the feeling we're both depressed for wildly different reasons.

I have no doubt about that from seing your posts.

Isn't it crazy how two people can share the same emotions despite wildly different perspectives, interpretations, and conclusions of the same topic?

Mordin had it right. You just can't make a solid judgement on any given human

[Sialater]

I want to know how a picture on your desk constitutes an ongoing relationship when Anderson has Kaiden's pic on his desk, too.

[Agamemnon2589]

I wonder if getting frisky with your secretary will have any adverse effects on your LI relationship in ME3. Is Liara going to kill Kelly and stuff her into a coffee cup?

[Remaix]

Sialater wrote...

I want to know how a picture on your desk constitutes an ongoing relationship when Anderson has Kaiden's pic on his desk, too.

Do... do you want an answer to this? D:

[jlb524]

Agamemnon2589 wrote...

I wonder if getting frisky with your secretary will have any adverse effects on your LI relationship in ME3. Is Liara going to kill Kelly and stuff her into a coffee cup?

It's possible.  The game keeps track if you invite Kelly up to your room.

Flirt with the Yeoman, note in the file!  Call her up to your cabin, note in the file!  Watch her dance in a hot-pink catsuit, another note in the file!

[Sialater]

Remaix wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I want to know how a picture on your desk constitutes an ongoing relationship when Anderson has Kaiden's pic on his desk, too.

Do... do you want an answer to this? D:

LMAO, makes me feel a bit better about moving on from Commander Alenko to his buddy Garrus.   Considering they were my entire squad while in ME1....

[Marcin K]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Did I say she wouldn't come back? I just mean it won't make sense as far as the characters are concerned. As written, there is no Shepard/Liara romance in ME2, and no indication that there ever was one. Neither of them acknowledge any feelings, except for Liara's "couldn't let you go" semi-apology, to which Shepard basically doesn't react to. They are both cold and businesslike towards each other, but not in any way that would constitute a "lover's quarrel" or a troubled romance. Liara is obsessed with her private vendetta over some random "friend", and while she still has use for Shepard's hacking skills, she basically snubs his/her requests for aid against the Reaper threat in return. That friend must have been some "friend", to make her completely forget about the big picture and the axe hanging over the fate of all intelligent life in the galaxy...

I don't doubt that the devs will be dragging her wrecked ruin of a character back to ME3. I just wonder how on earth are they going to make the two get over that extremely awkward reunion on Ilium. Especially if they are tone deaf enough to have Liara accuse Shepard of cheating on her. What was there to stay "faithful" to? Yes, Shepard does gaze at the picture near the end. But Liara is right there on Ilium. Why can't s/he got to her and tell her how this might be the last time they see each other? Get some closure, take her flowers, take her out to dinner, break up with her, kiss her, kill her, do something, ANYTHING, to further the so-called 2nd act of a so-called 3 act love story?

two things to put up as forgotten in this quote:
1.Shepard can't express feelings to Liara freely on Ilium as their actions are recorded on vids [proof see onrad Vrener submission "[...]i've got it on three different vids" some Asari is saying]
2. if Shepard loved Liara in ME1 [my did] and in ME3 they'd reunion somehow and Shep. betrayed Liara in ME2 [my didn't] she would know it as she can join minds (and feel[see] memories of the joined person probably) [and refusing a minds-joining is self -explanatory option....]

how does that responds to quoted line of arguments?
[/u][u]

Modifié par Marcin R, 16 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[DigitalMaster37]

jlb524 wrote...

Agamemnon2589 wrote...

I wonder if getting frisky with your secretary will have any adverse effects on your LI relationship in ME3. Is Liara going to kill Kelly and stuff her into a coffee cup?

It's possible.  The game keeps track if you invite Kelly up to your room.

Flirt with the Yeoman, note in the file!  Call her up to your cabin, note in the file!  Watch her dance in a hot-pink catsuit, another note in the file!

I lol'd!

[Sialater]

I do have a concern that your celibate Sheps will be punished for the actions of the non-celibate ones with that Paramour Achievement. I refuse to not play half the game just to avoid that achievement for ONE character.