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[Newtype Taichou]

Bottom line, if the Liara/Shepard relationship ended like Nozybidaj said, there would be no "cheating" and no consequences, which would mean BioWare lied to us

[Newtype Taichou]

Littledoom wrote...

Newtype Taichou wrote...

Littledoom wrote...

Newtype Taichou wrote...

Littledoom wrote...

Are you one of the devs or writers in disguise or something?

Nope, merely stating my opinion. Because if the relationship ended, then we wouldn't have the option to stay loyal.

You could have fooled me...

That's because you're a fool?

Aww personal insults how cute <3

We are of different opinions no problems but in my eyes you defend something that isn't there.

What are you even defending? All I'm saying is that there has to be a relationship there, or else how would there be able to be cheating scenarios in the third game? :S

[Nozybidaj]

Newtype Taichou wrote...

Bottom line, if the Liara/Shepard relationship ended like Nozybidaj said, there would be no "cheating" and no consequences, which would mean BioWare lied to us

That's exactly my point.  There was no romance, there was no continuation of the ME1 love story, there was no cheating, and as such there should be no consequences.  Unless someone wants to explain how a picture on your desk that you look at once for 2 seconds in the entire game counts as a "continuing romance" you can take what BW said to us prior to ME2 however you want.

[Madecologist]

I am not objecting to loyalty/celebate, I am not objecting to someone who decided and sees it as outright cheating for his or her Shepard. What I am objecting is that every Shepard who chooses to 'move on' is automatically a full on cheater. Sure a terrible breakeruper (debatable to many), maybe even a little insensitive to the person he is leaving (some argue they were to him or her). All that is up for debate (many will argue Shepard is in the right though). But a full on cheater, nope. To me some Shepards have moved on. Consequences included (to that effect though). Some Shepards will see that there is nothing to remain loyal too. Which in itself is a very tragic story. This type of "cheating" to use their own words, should be reflected if they are gonna toss consequences at us. Better off just to stop using the term.

I hoping Bioware and the staff of ME knows, this is not something as clean cut as loyal vs cheater. Alas from their interview transcripts it seems they are seeing it as a binary result (again I am hoping they are just got caught up on a buzz word, and need to realise... a little discretion with it). In the end they will treat the ME1 and ME2 LI complication poperly. Doesn't mean we can't have concerns they won't.

Also implying that Shepard cheats also implies Tali and Garrus are a mistress or whatever a male mistress is (as in they know you have a ME1 romance). Miranda too, I am sure she read your file. Jacob maybe (if he was curious), Thane and Jack are the only two that are in the dark about it (and Jack and Jacob could be taken to Horizan if your LI was Kaiden or Ash). So Thane is the only one that could be ignorant you are cheating on someone (assuming no one else mentions it to him, like Tali says, small ship). Oddly enough all of them accept you with open arms and no mention about your previous LI. "I am here for you, they are not, forget about them." Seems to come to my mind as the upsoken word.

Modifié par Madecologist, 16 février 2010 - 04:18 .

[Newtype Taichou]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Newtype Taichou wrote...

Bottom line, if the Liara/Shepard relationship ended like Nozybidaj said, there would be no "cheating" and no consequences, which would mean BioWare lied to us

That's exactly my point.  There was no romance, there was no continuation of the ME1 love story, there was no cheating, and as such there should be no consequences.  Unless someone wants to explain how a picture on your desk that you look at once for 2 seconds in the entire game counts as a "continuing romance" you can take what BW said to us prior to ME2 however you want.

Okay you think their shouldn't be concequences because nothing romantically signifcant happened. But saying the relationship was over and that it was clearly indicated is the only problem I have. I think enough happened between the both of them in the first and second ME to warrant concequences for having another sexual partner, but I guess thats where we differ....


This whole problem stems from the fact that BW did not decide to explicitly acknowledge a relationship with ME1's love interest. Although that seems like the right thing to do, because the LI's in the first game were more than a fling (IMO). Since it isn't acknowleged, it can be assumed that they're no longer in a relationship. But THEN BW says that we can "cheat" on our LI, implying that we are in a relationship with them. Creating great fodder for debates and arguments...... was this their plan all along!?

Modifié par Newtype Taichou, 16 février 2010 - 04:38 .

[Madecologist]

I guess I will express my desires as simplely as possible. I am alright with loyalty scenarios (I actually see a form of re-romancing here to be exact. I could be wrong). I am alright for cheating scenarios (Shepard denies the ME2 LI and pretends to be loyal, or admits to it and sees it as a mistake), but what I want is that is not where it ends. I think there should be the "I moved on, sorry I did not tell you..." I am with ME2 LI now scenarios. Reasoning is simple, you felt they abandoned you while they were there for you, being a classical. If all these venues are explored then I am fine. But it seems Bioware only really spoke of cheat vs loyal. Which has me worried they forgetting the most obvious one.

[Sharn01]

I am still betting my money on the, Lets ruin the ME1 LI in ME2 so that even more people try out the new LI then what would be expected, then we can pat our selves on the back for doing such a great job developing those character's that Shepard is forced to flirt with in every conversation with them like it or not.

[JPfanner]

I think that they just forget that we don't know what happens until and unless we're told. Not antagonistic, but an oversight because their perspective encompasses a panorama not limited by the window of the finished product we have to experience it through. Still annoying as hell when that window is dusty, cracked, and at a weird angle to what you want to see.

[Nozybidaj]

Newtype Taichou wrote...

Okay you think their shouldn't be concequences because nothing romantically signifcant happened. But saying the relationship was over and that it was clearly indicated is the only problem I have. I think enough happened between the both of them in the first and second ME to warrant concequences for having another sexual partner, but I guess thats where we differ....


This whole problem stems from the fact that BW did not decide to explicitly acknowledge a relationship with ME1's love interest. Although that seems like the right thing to do, because the LI's in the first game were more than a fling (IMO). Since it isn't acknowleged, it can be assumed that they're no longer in a relationship. But THEN BW says that we can "cheat" on our LI, implying that we are in a relationship with them. Creating great fodder for debates and arguments...... was this their plan all along!?

The plan all along was for you to get involved with the new LI's.  I think that is as far as it went, being able to tag on the "cheater" term just happened to be something they thought of after the fact.

I do think there shouldn't be consequences.  If they wanted consequences they should have done what they really should have done from the start and included the ME1 LI's in a large enough capacity to actually constitute an ongoing relationship.  Even if it was rocky and troubled at least it would have been there.  Then the player would have had to make a real choice between the new LI's and the old ones.  Instead the old ones were removed from the game and every conversation you have with the new ones tries to railroad you into a new romance.

The "cheating by blunt force" tactic they employed in ME2 is what I really have a problem with.  The entire situation from top to bottom was handled very poorly for something where there was a lof of opportunity for real tension and growth and forcing the player into a tough decision.  Instead the old LI's simply dump you because the new LI's aren't compelling enough to make a decent case for "cheating" so they had to make the "choice" obvious.

[Madecologist]

JPfanner wrote...

I think that they just forget that we don't know what happens until and unless we're told. Not antagonistic, but an oversight because their perspective encompasses a panorama not limited by the window of the finished product we have to experience it through. Still annoying as hell when that window is dusty, cracked, and at a weird angle to what you want to see.

I really liked that. I do a lot of table top gaming, this reminds me a bit about that. Bioware is the GM. Our PC or 360 is the gaming table, Mass Effect is the setting and rulebooks. We are the players. Bioware knows where their campaign is going. We don't. We have to rely on the discriptions the GM tells us. In the case of the ME1 LI, it feels the GM fubbed the narrative a little. So we as players, to quote an old KotDT joke, "attack the Gazebo". This is where the GM needs to take a step back and consider what exactly we saw, before they continue with the story telling.

Bioware is a company I have confidence in and in the end I hope they will atleast, give us something we will like. This faith doesn't mean we can sit here and give them the odd confused player look though, so they know they need to look at their stuff again.

[Sharn01]

I do not think there should be consequences for cheating, I do think there should be a reward for staying loyal. Perhaps every one should have a compelling romance with a happy ending. M



Maybe those that did not cheat and stick to one love interest can get married to them if both survive the game, or maybe even before the big final battle as a testament to their love before they think they will die.



Lets not forget to mention that there will probably be option's for Shepard's to cheat yet again with a third partner, the I am not in to commitment but just want lot's of sex Shepard's.

[lyssalu]

Nozybidaj wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

Ask her why she is so obessed and once you find out why you might just change your tune about her.  Of the 3 I thought Lira had the best reason for not joining your team.

Ash/Kaidan won't join because they are butthurt, agreed that is a terrible excuse.

Lira won't join because getting vengenance for Feron is more important to her than Shepard is.

Neither of those exactly screams "this is a continuing but troubled romance" to me.  Both are pretty clearly an ending to the relationship.

True but she is also getting revenge because of you.  She saved your body from ending up with the Collectors by stealing it from the SB which got her friend killed.  She even tells you that she wants to talk about it more and show more feeling but by doing so would put her and most likely others in danger.  So in fact she is still protecting you.

Liara does this whether she was Sheps romance in ME1 or not.  Her telling you all this has absolutely nothing to do with a romance.  

Out of the three Liara is the one that I feel it would be the least likely to be considered cheating.  With Ash/Kaidan you at least get to express, however slightly, how you still feel.   So do they, they also send you an email regretting their actions, Joker and Kelly both make mention of the reunion and ask Shepard how he still feels about.  It doesn't exactly constitute an ongoing romance, but it is at least something.

None of this happens with Liara.  There is absolutely no mention of the Liara romance in the game.

liara makes out with shepard.  quit ignoring that.  actions speak louder than words.

joker and kelly mention ashley and kaidan because they break up with you.  liara doesn't break up with you, therefore there's nothing for you to feel bad about or for them to ask you about.  it's the most likely one to be considered cheating.

[Nozybidaj]

Sharn01 wrote...

I do not think there should be consequences for cheating, I do think there should be a reward for staying loyal. Perhaps every one should have a compelling romance with a happy ending. M

Maybe those that did not cheat and stick to one love interest can get married to them if both survive the game, or maybe even before the big final battle as a testament to their love before they think they will die.

Lets not forget to mention that there will probably be option's for Shepard's to cheat yet again with a third partner, the I am not in to commitment but just want lot's of sex Shepard's.

At the end of the day, I do think there should be consequences for taking a new romance.  I just wanted to make my point.  If you romanced a characer in ME1 and romanced a character in ME2 that ME1 character should at the very least feel snubbed and a bit heartbroken.  I think a fitting consequence would be that the ME1 LI sees that you have moved on and their romance arc in ME3 is shut off to you.  No flip floping back and forth, you made your bed now lay in it.

I also think there should be alternate endings in ME3 for the romances, those who have stayed loyal to one LI through 3 games should get the biggest payoff in terms of story and content as a reward for having a non existant second chapter to their story.  Those who stayed faithful through 2 games should have a middle of the road payoff.  Those who can't keep it in their pants should have a so-so payoff.  Those who romanced no one obviously don't get a romance pay off.

None of this of course changes my mind that the ME LI's should have been included in ME2.  What a bone headed move.

[Adynata]

This got me thinking and I can see where the relationships with Kaidan and Garrus would not constitute an actual relationships and therefore could not be cheated on. Kaidan was insistent that he and Shepard couldn't get together b/c of alliance regs against fraternization. Then, once they were already in deep trouble, he figured they might be dead or discharged after Ilos so he said let's do this thang. I don't know if that necessarily means he wanted a relationship with her. He mentioned loving her in past tense on Horizon, and referred to that one night. But wasn't there like a two week span before ME2 begins (or am I making this up off the top of my head?) If they really were in a relationship then I think they would've gotten together more than that one night.



And, really, if he loved her so much then he should've stood up to her when the Normandy was going down and said "No, Commander, YOU get out of here and I'LL go get Joker." What she going to do? Fire him? I guess you could argue that he trusted her to save herself, but if he trusts her so much then why didn't he trust her on Horizon?



And don't get me started on Garrus. That was so awkward I almost bailed every time I talked to him. It almost felt like pity sex. Between "relieving stress" and reading books to figure out how to get it done, I got the distinct feeling he felt like Shepard was pressuring him. If she said "nevermind" he probably would've sighed in relief. I really don't get the sense that he's going to fight Kaidan for her in ME3 if it comes down to that. And if for some strange reason he does I will have to awkwardly decline.

[Madecologist]

Sharn01 wrote...

I do not think there should be consequences for cheating, I do think there should be a reward for staying loyal. Perhaps every one should have a compelling romance with a happy ending..

Yeah, the part I did not quote at the end is kind of funny, I can see that. The Bond Shepard. A different woman every game. Yes that has a consequences, three LI that realise Shep's been around town.

You stayed true to your ME1 LI. You can reromance then, overcome the pain of being alone for this long (them) and feeling maybe abandoned (Shepard).

Those that chose to to romance in ME2 with a ME1 romance, will have to face with the decision, did they dally or did they really move on. In the first they likely to hurt the feelings of number 2, while number 1 might have issues you did dally (not like you were alone for 2 years, you were in a coma). Or if you did move on, then maybe number 2 is relieved they keep you, but it could be painful for number 1.

As long as the character is not a total ******, he has a chance to mend broken fences a little, and alleviate and bond with the one he care about in the end. Though a Shepard that jumped romance could never have a super duper happy ending, he can soften the blow on the jilted and find peace with the one he wants (assuming you play it right). Something like that would be very powerful, and make almost everyone happy. The loyalist,  and the ones that moved on. Only the truely jerkie ones are likely to cause a terrible backlash.

[nitefyre410]

Okay guys its not cheating if you died and came back from the dead... please refer to "How to be a playa" handbook



Article 15 paragraph 2..



"Death makes all previous relationships null and void..."

[J0urn3y]

The whole issue is complicated. I'm wondering if you didn't have a ME1 save for certain characters will a relationship in ME2 still be considered "cheating". Most of my characters have an original save, but I didn't feel like going all the way back to the first game for my Engineer playthrough. This means that Ashley was forced on him. He doesn't give a crap about her and he's going to paragon romance Jack. I'll be damned if that's "cheating".



I also have a femshep who only likes fems so the whole loyalty thing was decided for her due to a lack of options. When she reunites with Liara in ME3 she can righteously proclaim, "Congrads Liara, you win by DEFAULT."

[Madecologist]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Okay guys its not cheating if you died and came back from the dead... please refer to "How to be a playa" handbook

Article 15 paragraph 2..

"Death makes all previous relationships null and void..."

Oh lord, you do realise. Liara gave your body to Cerberus. So she knows you were dead. See it was all a elaborate scheme to break up with you. I mean... she did not hate you so much as to kill kill you. But she wanted to make sure the relationship was voided! TIM knows this.. hence why he says you can not trust her. That explains why Tali/Garrus try their luck, they know you are available again by the code. It all coming into focus now.

On a serious note, what is defualt Shep, does he have a ME1 LI, I guess not. It is still funny that they use the opposite gender Human in their intro (I think it is to hint that Kaiden/Ash will be romancable in a ME2/3 clean start in 3.). I just think the whole Udina is on the Coucil is funny. I can see Admiral Anderson, "Go back and play ME1 your fool and get me on the Council."

[PopDisaster]

I don't really see why this is such an issue. I think you can read into it however you want to. I see a lot of people saying that the LI "clearly ended it." Personally, I don't see that happening at all, if you read into the characters and consider what you know about their personalities already, you'll find they are still very much attached.

For Ash/Kaidan, I kindof saw that as more of a "lover's spat" rather than a break-up. They each have mixed emotions about seeing Shep and they vocalized how they felt. When people are angry/hurt/confused/upset/shocked, they can say things they don't actually mean. The fact that you got an email with an apology, I think, speaks for itself. They still showed interest and hope for the relationship to continue when you've finished taking care of the Collectors. And I think you need to keep in mind that these are charactes who have distinct personalities, thoughts, and feelings and just because they reacted in a way that you, the gamer, wouldn't have or disagreed with, doesn't mean they were wrong or unjustified.

Also, if you moved on from that relationship, ie "cheated," why would you care how the first LI reacts at all anyways? You've obviously moved on. A lot of you are saying things like, "they were boring, Miranda/Tali/whoever is better", so as a player, you're in a happier relationship - you've moved on. Maybe the LI hasen't but that's their baggage to deal with and ultimately, it'll go however BW writes it, but I feel they will stay true to the characters they've created in how it's all handled.

Either way, I don't really see it as a problem.

Modifié par PopDisaster, 16 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[GodWood]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

...and some of us specifically didn't romance anyone in ME1 because we wanted to romance Tali or Garrus, don't forget us!

and those who were waiting for Jack (me)

[Mox Ruuga]

Basically, should the devs now make a big issue about cheating on your supposed ME1 LI in ME3, they would be doing an injustice to the gamers who chose the new LIs. There was nothing to stay loyal to, at least in Liara's case. Unless one is into metagaming or a masochist. It wasn't even that one dumped the other. Neither Shepard or Liara acknowledged that there was something between them. Indeed, there was no acknowledgement of there ever having been anything.

Why would anyone want to stay loyal to the new Liara, who bears only superficial resemblance to the old Liara? Especially given the fact that Shepard just doesn't seem the least bit interested in her. Hell, s/he reacts more warmly to the small come on and arm caress from Shiala, than seeing his/her supposed lover.

[SurfaceBeneath]

There is going to be a confrontation in ME3 between your ME1 and ME2 love interests. Bioware set the trilogy up that way just as they set up the reapers to be a point of confrontation. People who are worried or even thinking about about "consequences" are missing the point. If there was a choice to simply avert the Reaper confrontation in ME3 would I do it? Hell no, it's going to be interesting, exciting, and hopefully have a great resolution. Why would the romantic tension between your ME1 romance and ME2 romance be any different?

I just feel like anyone who didn't "cheat" is just going to end up missing out on part of the ME experience as a whole.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 16 février 2010 - 09:16 .

[OfTheFaintSmile]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Basically, should the devs now make a big issue about cheating on your supposed ME1 LI in ME3, they would be doing an injustice to the gamers who chose the new LIs. There was nothing to stay loyal to, at least in Liara's case. Unless one is into metagaming or a masochist. It wasn't even that one dumped the other. Neither Shepard or Liara acknowledged that there was something between them. Indeed, there was no acknowledgement of there ever having been anything.

Why would anyone want to stay loyal to the new Liara, who bears only superficial resemblance to the old Liara? Especially given the fact that Shepard just doesn't seem the least bit interested in her. Hell, s/he reacts more warmly to the small come on and arm caress from Shiala, than seeing his/her supposed lover.

How do you know for sure Liara won't come back?? Maybe she's just so absorbed in her work with the Shadow Broker (she needed something to focus her depression on after she lost Shepard). Maybe in ME3 you'll be able to break her out of her rut and there will be confrontation between her and whoever else you chose to romance.

It's all speculation at this point.