278 réponses à ce sujet

[Madecologist]

I still feel it could be handled better. For Ash/Kai you at least get a Joker and Kelly question, and sort of a TIM question too. But there seems little consequence to the actual dialogue (the picture is not flipped down because you tell Kelly it is over in your eyes, but when you successfully romanced another person). In the case of Liara we don't even get that. It would be cool if you had an option to flip the picture down after Horizan for Ash/Kai or after Illium for Liara. It give that feeling you have that input to your character's actions.

Considering the game gives you several approaches to achieve the same end, while the ME1 LI has a binary effect still leaves a sour taste in my mouth. In short, a little more garnish on the presentation. I think a lot of people would have loved that while romancing Garrus and Tali (the ME1 returners), they would ask you about "your ME1 LI". At this stage only Joker and Kelly cared and only for the humans.

On the flip side, I think this thread served another purpose, it did get people to express why they shifted LI in ME2. Both metagame reasons and in character reasons, which is valuable feedback (because as all hell our save games don't, only what we did is in there). It even opened up the forum to those that chose to stick it out and why. I mean Biowares knows a lot of people 'cheated' and they sort of know why, the actual reasons and the in Shepard's perspective reasons they don't really know. A lot of that was expressed here I think, both for the 'cheaters' (which I still think is a mislable) and the loyalist.

[Mox Ruuga]

OfTheFaintSmile wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Basically, should the devs now make a big issue about cheating on your supposed ME1 LI in ME3, they would be doing an injustice to the gamers who chose the new LIs. There was nothing to stay loyal to, at least in Liara's case. Unless one is into metagaming or a masochist. It wasn't even that one dumped the other. Neither Shepard or Liara acknowledged that there was something between them. Indeed, there was no acknowledgement of there ever having been anything.

Why would anyone want to stay loyal to the new Liara, who bears only superficial resemblance to the old Liara? Especially given the fact that Shepard just doesn't seem the least bit interested in her. Hell, s/he reacts more warmly to the small come on and arm caress from Shiala, than seeing his/her supposed lover.

How do you know for sure Liara won't come back?? Maybe she's just so absorbed in her work with the Shadow Broker (she needed something to focus her depression on after she lost Shepard). Maybe in ME3 you'll be able to break her out of her rut and there will be confrontation between her and whoever else you chose to romance.

It's all speculation at this point.

Did I say she wouldn't come back? I just mean it won't make sense as far as the characters are concerned. As written, there is no Shepard/Liara romance in ME2, and no indication that there ever was one. Neither of them acknowledge any feelings, except for Liara's "couldn't let you go" semi-apology, to which Shepard basically doesn't react to. They are both cold and businesslike towards each other, but not in any way that would constitute a "lover's quarrel" or a troubled romance. Liara is obsessed with her private vendetta over some random "friend", and while she still has use for Shepard's hacking skills, she basically snubs his/her requests for aid against the Reaper threat in return. That friend must have been some "friend", to make her completely forget about the big picture and the axe hanging over the fate of all intelligent life in the galaxy...

I don't doubt that the devs will be dragging her wrecked ruin of a character back to ME3. I just wonder how on earth are they going to make the two get over that extremely awkward reunion on Ilium. Especially if they are tone deaf enough to have Liara accuse Shepard of cheating on her. What was there to stay "faithful" to? Yes, Shepard does gaze at the picture near the end. But Liara is right there on Ilium. Why can't s/he got to her and tell her how this might be the last time they see each other? Get some closure, take her flowers, take her out to dinner, break up with her, kiss her, kill her, do something, ANYTHING, to further the so-called 2nd act of a so-called 3 act love story?

[Madecologist]

Exactly, Ash and Kaiden have a second act. Albiet a small and under expectation role. But it was there. You get shifts in the dialogue and even in responses, and get to talk about them to Joker, Kelly, and even the Illusive Man (even if they were just a friend). The famous email you get later where they reveal things are not that simple (to some that is heartwretching, to others it is too little too late). So there is a form of second act for them.

Liara has nothing except for the awkward kiss. Her second act is more of a Footnote, or passing wind on the shores of what we call Shepard's life. Oh we might get a DLC... well that be nice, but well it isn't here now is it.

The only possible second act Liara has if you fill it up yourself. To me as I see it, I see her becoming a tragic antagonist (possiblely redeemable, easier if you are "true to her" and harder if you "ditched her" (the middle challenge being she was just a friend)). So her second act is her falling. In that regards Bioware succeeded I guess. Damn those that gave her the finger and found someone else. Actually I wouldn't mind that resolution, it be tragic as all hell. It be enough to make my Shepard feel sorry he moved on.

Not sure this what Liara fans would want though.

Modifié par Madecologist, 16 février 2010 - 10:22 .

[Sharn01]

Madecologist wrote...

Exactly, Ash and Kaiden have a second act. Albiet a small and under expectation role. But it was there. You get shifts in the dialogue and even in responses, and get to talk about them to Joker, Kelly, and even the Illusive Man (even if they were just a friend). The famous email you get later where they reveal things are not that simple (to some that is heartwretching, to others it is too little too late). So there is a form of second act for them.

Liara has nothing except for the awkward kiss. Her second act is more of a Footnote, or passing wind on the shores of what we call Shepard's life. Oh we might get a DLC... well that be nice, but well it isn't here now is it.

The only possible second act Liara has if you fill it up yourself. To me as I see it, I see her becoming a tragic antagonist (possiblely redeemable, easier if you are "true to her" and harder if you "ditched her" (the middle challenge being she was just a friend)). So her second act is her falling. In that regards Bioware succeeded I guess. Damn those that gave her the finger and found someone us. Actually I wouldn't mind that resolution, it be tragic as all hell. It be enough to make my Shepard feel sorry he moved on.

Not sure this what Liara fans would want though.

Your evil for even suggesting this, we all think it, we just dont want it out in the open because the idea of it makes us want to puke.

Modifié par Sharn01, 16 février 2010 - 10:22 .

[darkshadow136]

It could have been handled better but your Shepard was dead for 2 years. But that being said Ashley should have been happier to see Shepard instead of being a Alliance brownoser like she was.My Shepards that had Liana as a romantic partner I stayed true too. Because when you explore all the topic in her conversations you re-alize she was the one that retrieved your body from the shadowbroker and gave you to Cerberus to bring you back.



Liana was more afraid you would hate her for that then any of her feelings changing about you. Ashley on the other hand had no character growth since the first ME game. She was just dry and boring, and down right out of line with her responces to you on horizon.



Yes the horizon romances characters have a 2nd act in e-mail follow-ups later in the game, and Liana is left where she is atm. But I think there will be some resolution in ME3 there. The big question is will Bioware do this right or mess it up. I would hate to stay true to Liana just to have some crappy re-union with her in ME3. Ashley on the other hand I dropped like a box of rocks after my encounter with her on Horizon.

[Mox Ruuga]

Madecologist wrote...

Exactly, Ash and Kaiden have a second act. Albiet a small and under expectation role. But it was there. You get shifts in the dialogue and even in responses, and get to talk about them to Joker, Kelly, and even the Illusive Man (even if they were just a friend). The famous email you get later where they reveal things are not that simple (to some that is heartwretching, to others it is too little too late). So there is a form of second act for them.

Liara has nothing except for the awkward kiss. Her second act is more of a Footnote, or passing wind on the shores of what we call Shepard's life. Oh we might get a DLC... well that be nice, but well it isn't here now is it.

The only possible second act Liara has if you fill it up yourself. To me as I see it, I see her becoming a tragic antagonist (possiblely redeemable, easier if you are "true to her" and harder if you "ditched her" (the middle challenge being she was just a friend)). So her second act is her falling. In that regards Bioware succeeded I guess. Damn those that gave her the finger and found someone us. Actually I wouldn't mind that resolution, it be tragic as all hell. It be enough to make my Shepard feel sorry he moved on.

Not sure this what Liara fans would want though.

No, she wouldn't even make a believable "fallen" companion and new tragic antagonist. For that, we would have needed some emotion from Shepard during their meeting on Ilium. We should have seen him/her baffled and angry at the change in Liara, and she shouldn't have remained "open" for us to visit after that. Should she become a villainess, I can't really see Shepard as portrayed by the writers give a flying fv(k at this point. Just another murderous asari, s/he's killed plenty of those by the time s/he reaches ME3.

We would have to meta game and fill "holes" to make her a tragic villain as well. A throwaway meaningless villain? Yeah. That's possible I guess. But since there is all the unacknowledged baggage between the characters from ME1, that would still be a true "WTF!!!" moment for those who played ME1. ME2 and ME3 noobs? Not so much. In fact, to them it would be a standard plot twist.

[Madecologist]

Well I didn't say it be a good move. I wouldn't mind is my equivelent of a F (come and see me after class) mark. Not an R but still. Yeah if they do that, ME1 fans will stand there blinking, while ME2 and 3 introductees will be like "oh not this again". I am just worried they might just.. go that path after all. Thinking it is clever and dramatic. If they did want to have the fall of Liara (and her possible redemption) as a storyline. They have to have given her a way larger role in ME2 (and even echo forshadows of it as far back as ME1). You are right, at this stage it be very left field.

I think we all have our moments where we think we are creative genius but the rest of the world looks at us with an odd look. I am afriad Bioware might just have had one of those moments with Liara. I guess it is up to the Liara fans to go a knocking and say we are not impressed. There might still be time for a salvage. Now I have the mental image of that Volus that thinks he is a Biotic god stuck in my mind...

Modifié par Madecologist, 16 février 2010 - 11:07 .

[Sharn01]

Liara fans are doing the best they can, though many are so angry they have given up and do not even try.



It gets worse when the guy writing the comic book comes out in interviews and says he is getting a lot of positive responces from Liara fans about the character, while I have never seen anything but the exact opposite in regards to the way she is being portrayed.

[darkshadow136]

Madecologist wrote...

Well I didn't say it be a good move. I wouldn't mind is my equivelent of a F (come and see me after class) mark. Not an R but still. Yeah if they do that, ME1 fans will stand there blinking, while ME2 and 3 introductees will be like "oh not this again". I am just worried they might just.. go that path after all. Thinking it is clever and dramatic. If they did want to have the fall of Liara (and her possible redemption) as a storyline. They have to have given her a way larger role in ME2 (and even echo forshadows of it as far back as ME1). You are right, at this stage it be very left field.

I think we all have our moments where we think we are creative genius but the rest of the world looks at us with an odd look. I am afriad Bioware might just have had one of those moments with Liara. I guess it is up to the Liara fans to go a knocking and saw we are not impressed. There is still time for a salvage. Now I have the mental image of that Volus that thinks he is a Biotic god stuck in my mind...

Lol it was then tthen that I could smell my greatness, oh great wind biotic god.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Sharn01 wrote...

Liara fans are doing the best they can

Some might say trying too hard

[Mox Ruuga]

Madecologist wrote...

Well I didn't say it be a good move. I wouldn't mind is my equivelent of a F (come and see me after class) mark. Not an R but still. Yeah if they do that, ME1 fans will stand there blinking, while ME2 and 3 introductees will be like "oh not this again". I am just worried they might just.. go that path after all. Thinking it is clever and dramatic. If they did want to have the fall of Liara (and her possible redemption) as a storyline. They have to have given her a way larger role in ME2 (and even echo forshadows of it as far back as ME1). You are right, at this stage it be very left field.

I think we all have our moments where we think we are creative genius but the rest of the world looks at us with an odd look. I am afriad Bioware might just have had one of those moments with Liara. I guess it is up to the Liara fans to go a knocking and saw we are not impressed. There is still time for a salvage. Now I have the mental image of that Volus that thinks he is a Biotic god stuck in my mind...

I don't really know what they could do to salvage the Liara / Shepard romance, or even a close friendship. The gaping hole of nothing that is their interaction in ME2 has damaged the relationship between the characters beyond repair IMHO. Even if they add content with DLC, it doesn't change the fact that the core version of the game, that the majority of the gamers will have experienced, retains the wrecked Liara and the wrecked Liara/Shepard romance. The damage is done.

I'm sure there will be some asspull of an attempt at making them closer in ME3, but just how awfully artificial and out of left field that will seem after the blatant coldness and lack of interest in ME2, remains to be seen.

[Mox Ruuga]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Liara fans are doing the best they can

Some might say trying too hard

Last gasps from a dying character fandom. Some of us haven't quite grasped how thorough the wrecking was, and how deliberately done. It'll all be over soon enough.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Liara fans are doing the best they can

Some might say trying too hard

Last gasps from a dying character fandom. Some of us haven't quite grasped how thorough the wrecking was, and how deliberately done. It'll all be over soon enough.

Okie Dokie.

[Sharn01]

Giving up completely Mox?

[keginkc]

I read a lot about no connection between Shepard and a romanced Liara, but I could swear that Liara kissed my Shepard that romanced her when they first met on Illium. My non-attached Shepards didn't receive that...greeting, as I recall. I haven't dealt with Ashley or Kaiden yet, so I don't know how it goes with them.

[Madecologist]

Maybe we will have some Liara DLC, and it will be so mind bogglingly awesome it will fix everything. Liara Loyalists and Liara droppers will be moved to tears by the outcome and everyone will be satisified. It will be offered for free to Cerberus Network owners (it should be free for all, but that be too much to ask for).

Why do I get a feeling people are either laughing their asses off at that blind optimism or saying stuff like "yeah and heard pigs can fly" or "hell frozen over it seems".

[The Speedster]

I romanced Liara on ME1, but on ME2 I just couldn't stand her. She has changed so much over the two years Shep's been away... and I felt like she'd be the first to admit it.

There really was nothing - apart from a single kiss that looked false anyway - that made me feel like she was still interested in Shep. She really only cares about her vendetta and doesn't say anything that sounds like she's still in love with him. So when I went after Tali upon leaving Ilium I had absolutely no guilt or remorse. Tali was true to Shep in both games, always fighting at this side, always loyal and actually willing to follow him. She was the one that stood by him, not Liara, who's much more interested in finding the Shadow Broker than she is in rebuilding her love story with Shep: 2 years have passed, she's moved on and become a different person. The way I see it, romance with Liara was already over, picture on the desk or not. That's not cheating by any means. Like someone said you cannot cheat on a person you have no relationship with. And frankly, it really makes no sense what BioWare said about "going on a suicide mission Shep will not want to bring his LI with him". Uh? And where would THAT be, in the actual game?



BioWare developed the second game in a way in which it really doesn't make any sense to stay attached to your ME1 LI, at least as far as Liara is concerned (don't know if the email from Ash/Kaidan makes more sense as I lost my renegade playthru were I romanced Ash due to changing my HDD so didn't have the chance to check it out).



I think the handling of the love stories from ME1 is THE single thing that BioWare handled very badly in a game that for everything else is as close to perfection as they come.

[keginkc]

If Liara is important enough to warrant both a comic series and a short series of quests on Illium, maybe she will merit some DLC. Stranger things have happened. Either way, I have a feeling we're all going to be surprised by the DLC.

[Mox Ruuga]

Sharn01 wrote...

Giving up completely Mox?

There's really no point being interested in Liara, or in the Liara / Shepard romance now, is there? Gone baby, gone. And I think I've ranted enough about this issue anyhow...

I'll see eventually what sort of asspulls Bioware resorts to in ME3, attempting to salvage the character and possibly the romance from the wrecking inflicted by the replacement lead writer in ME2.

It's other LIs, Kelly, and SingleSheps for me after I finish my current ME1/ME2 Sentinel.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Or maybe Bioware can focus their resources on a character that was interesting from the start. Hyuk hyuk hyuk!



I'm just kidding. You Liara fans are incorrigible!

[WilliamShatner]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Giving up completely Mox?

There's really no point being interested in Liara, or in the Liara / Shepard romance now, is there? Gone baby, gone. And I think I've ranted enough about this issue anyhow...

I'll see eventually what sort of asspulls Bioware resorts to in ME3, attempting to salvage the character and possibly the romance from the wrecking inflicted by the replacement lead writer in ME2.

It's other LIs, Kelly, and SingleSheps for me after I finish my current ME1/ME2 Sentinel.

You disappoint me Mox. 

Liara and Shepard's connection in ME1 will take far more than bad writing in ME2 to break down.

[Mox Ruuga]

WilliamShatner wrote...

You disappoint me Mox. 

Liara and Shepard's connection in ME1 will take far more than bad writing in ME2 to break down.

Actually, bad writing is all it takes.

You can't have a three act love story without the second act.

[Sharn01]

I am ok with your frustration, I am near there myself, and you wont be the first person to disappear from the support thread's if you decide to stop posting.