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RPG vs Shooter.. the final showdown


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#76
lukandroll

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obie191970 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

obie191970 wrote...  But, why would I spend the time and effort to do so when I can get the same experience by spending 10 minutes driving to a Best Buy and spending a mere $300 on a console. 


Except that you can't. The XBox version isn't quite as good. 

But in the end, the question is how you think of gaming. If you think of it as a "lean-back" sort of experience, you'll want to play from a couch. If you think of it as a "lean-forward" experience, you'll probably prefer a PC setup.


Sorry, but graphical fidelity does not equal gaming experience.  For someone who gaming goes back to Pong, I am more than willing to take a small hit in graphics for comfort and ease.


To each his own. Its not the same experience. Graphics, Filters, AA, AF, more resolution, are things that improves the experience, SPECIALY on games as cinematic as Mass Effect.
Mods are always welcome also, another thing that consoles lack.
I rarely play SP multiplats on my 360 or PS3, consoles are more MP comunity based.

#77
PSRdirector

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I personally own both mass effect's and will not be getting the third if it becomes any mroe of a shooter, because I dont want to play a shooter and if it becomes one, I see no reason to play it

#78
lukandroll

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obie191970 wrote...

lukandroll wrote...
The fact that you can win the game with the very first SMG and without giving a damn about skills and classes proves even more my point.
You don't have ubber gear to look for in second plays.
Zero exploration on the levels does not help to the matter either. I really hope that the new HammerHead dlc can bring more exploration to the game.
So you see, you could do almost anything on the very first play.
That leaves the second plays only for having the experience of choosing different dialogue options, which aren't that different anyway.


HA!  How is this different from ME1?  I've beaten ME1 with nothing but  Hydra 1 armor and a Raikou 1 pistol.  What can't you get in one playthrough of ME1?  Collosus X maybe - But is it really that different from anything else.  What kind of exploration was there in ME1?  And seriously, if you count the Mako, then you are more idiotic than your posts have already broadcast to this entire community.  The only reason at all to do multiple playthroughs of of ME1 is for different classes and Renegade/Paragon status.


This is exactly what I was pointing out to MPaBkaTa123 , you see, who's trolling who?? BioWare defense force strikes back.

So aparently I'm stupid for liking having more options to play with... yeah silly me, no worries mate, I have seen the light,  thank you for your wisdom.

Modifié par lukandroll, 16 février 2010 - 09:02 .


#79
Forest03

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Re: RPG vs FPS

Your disappointment seems to stem mainly from the skill system and the main character's ability to shape the world with the decisions he/she makes. I agree with on that matter.

However, this entire trilogy was always meant to incorporate elements of both FPS's and RPG's. It was never BioWare's intention to fully incorporate every element that either genre offers. The closest feasible category for this game, citing public opinion, is RPG. Call it what you will - and interactive story is sufficient - but don't let the technicalities detract from what is otherwise a good game.

Now, as far as the writing and narrative are concerned... I have serious issues regarding ME2's design.

Re: Writing, Character Integration, Plot Progression

First of all, there are fewer plot-related elements in ME2 than there are in ME1. When I say "plot", I refer to the main goal of defending against the Reapers and perhaps destroying them. In ME2 you get a grocery list of characters where 4 out of 11 have anything whatsoever to contribute to gaining an advantage of the Reapers. More characters does not mean a better story. Yes, there is a theme of loyalty and personal improvement connecting all of them, but if there was any major plot line, it was very thin, even by gaming standards.

In ME2, regardless of how game mechanics were improved and how well some of the missions were designed, character immersion meant little to nothing. We were encouraged to go through a boatload of pointless loyalty quests that didn't do anything to get us to prepare for the Reaper invasion. In fact, much of it was to prepare for a Suicide Mission -- the very concept of which means that there is a great potential for casualties, whereby the characters we had to babysit mean little to the ME universe.

ME2 is a bridge to ME3, nothing more. Its narratives were 80% dedicated to characters, who, loyal or not, were insignificant cannon fodder. We could have saved a lot of time just hiring a Merc army. It would have made little difference to the outcome, and if most of them died, no one would care.

Only Tali, Mordin, Legion, and Miranda have something significant to contribute to the major elements outlying potential events in ME3. Tali's research and involvement in the Geth-Quarian war, Legion's reprogamming or destruction of the Heretics, Mordin's possible continuation of Maelon's genophage cure, and Miranda's potential aid in taking down Cerberus - these all have great ramifications. Everyone else was just a time-sink.

In ME1, disregarding that stupid Mako, nearly every mission-related world and character addition propelled the main character forward in the quest to take down Saren and Sovereign. Even if they had personal vendettas, their roles were comprised of more than just a specialty role with a high casualty rate. The very fact that BioWare took out 4 of them (Liara, Ashley, Kaidan, Wrex) speaks volumes for their importance, not just fan favor.

At any rate, the writers failed to implement any sense of progression in ME2, whereas M1, however linear, compelled the player and placed them in a role that meant something to the ME universe. If ME2 appears to be an improvement over that aspect, it's an illusion. In the scope of the ME game world, diverting our attentions with 8 (counting Miranda's) irrelevant personal *assignments* (that's the category they really should have been placed in) spread over the galaxy is not a good substitute for a game that actually maintains its pursuit of the primary objective for the majority of the missions.

Now, as far as the player's "role" in these objectives is concerned, be it in the main plot or otherwise, there is certainly a lot of participation - and varying opinions on whether or not it is worthy of being a sequel. Regardless, it allows for at least a measure of influence by the player, the greater of which is in ME2 despite it being very thinly interwoven.

Although it excels in what it has to offer, ME2 in no way excels in its narrative, and is certainly not superior to ME1. ME2 is a very short narrative bridge, little else. Was it worth crossing? We'll find out in a year or so.

ps. I just cut and paste this from a post that the forum server seems to have sent into limbo. I apologize in advance if it becomes a double post. I also responded to the topic of plot elements, but it seems those may have been in your similar but separate thread.

Modifié par Forest03, 17 février 2010 - 12:12 .


#80
obie191970

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lukandroll wrote...

obie191970 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

obie191970 wrote...  But, why would I spend the time and effort to do so when I can get the same experience by spending 10 minutes driving to a Best Buy and spending a mere $300 on a console. 


Except that you can't. The XBox version isn't quite as good. 

But in the end, the question is how you think of gaming. If you think of it as a "lean-back" sort of experience, you'll want to play from a couch. If you think of it as a "lean-forward" experience, you'll probably prefer a PC setup.


Sorry, but graphical fidelity does not equal gaming experience.  For someone who gaming goes back to Pong, I am more than willing to take a small hit in graphics for comfort and ease.


To each his own. Its not the same experience. Graphics, Filters, AA, AF, more resolution, are things that improves the experience, SPECIALY on games as cinematic as Mass Effect.
Mods are always welcome also, another thing that consoles lack.
I rarely play SP multiplats on my 360 or PS3, consoles are more MP comunity based.


I play games like Morrowind and Oblivion on the PC because of the modding community.  Everything else you descibe comes down to exactly what I said, graphical fidelity.  If you had asked me in 2005 if I would be a console gamer today, I would have laughed at the mere thought of it - This generation of consoles changed that for me.

#81
DomerPyle

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Elder Drake wrote...

A little more character customization would have gone a long ways. Dead Space's protagonist was more customizable, even the mp part of COD: MW2 is for crying out loud. I feel like ME2 is more of a scripted movie that Bioware made that they threw some interactivity in with it. I do not truly feel like "It's my story" because the "Make Shepard your own" options are so generic that they could remove them completely and I honestly wouldn't miss them. Bioware=Epic RPGs and storytelling, loved every one of their games till now. I still can't get how this game is receiving 96%avg scores. That is my opinion though and I obviously don't pretend to speak for the majority. ME2 to me was not worth the $75 USD I paid for the CE. Maybe EA will grace me with some content I can buy to bring me back but got to say..overall disappointed. And whomever designed the ending must have been smoking the good stuff because...seriously, that last interactive segment was so ludicrous I actually laughed when it literally popped up. Epic fail.


this. it's an 80% at best, imho. if i wanted to watch a movie, i'd watch a movie. not a game. games are meant to be played, not watched. sure, watching the cutscenes and dialogue once is fun, but after that it gets boring, especially since they can't be skipped, like they can in dragon age. >.> also, lolterminator.

PC gamers = smart kids in school

Console Gamers = too dumb to be called a smart kid


the majority of PC gamers build their rigs to the point that they make an XBox look like a toaster by comparision. For a long time Bioware was a PC only game company the redefined how DnD based RPGs should be made, then they made KOTOR a PC/Xbox game while still DnD based it was half the length of most their previous games.

Consoles and their games have managed one thing, they are completely content with a 20 hour game being a long content rich game, Sorry but RPGs used to be 50+ hour long games wether it be DnD style RPG or a JRPG they were long story rich games, now you have these instant gradtfication turds that think its too long if the game cannot be 100% completed in a week end. Hell some games now can be beat in a sitting.

I do not care if you dislike JRPGs or DnD based RPGs the fact is thats where the genre started without DnD there would be no RPGs, and sorry to burst your bubble but one of the main focuses of an RPG of any style is charater growth, you start weak the get stronger, there is no good RPG where you start uber and get slightly more uber.


In ME2 all you need is a pistol and you can beat the game with any class any difficulty and never spending a talent point, that is not an RPG that is the same as every other shooter ever made


QFE. my 3 year old PC could still cream a 360 any day of the week. while i do like me2's combat system, since it's actually based on user skill, i think there should've been shorter cutscenes and more 'sploring. like oblivion in space, but with no generic dungeons.

and as for replay value, if any of you can stomach more than 2 playthroughs, i commend you, for you have more patience than i.

#82
yoomazir

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javierabegazo wrote...

lukandroll wrote...


Because some of those things added the kind of replayability ME1 has and ME2 lacks


I couldn't disagree more. The difference in class structures, the pacing of combat, and different endings all give ME2 more replayability than ME1 ever had. Most notable is the way the 6 classes function in combat


You know, I'm really wondering if you played ME...ever.

"The difference in class structures" 
oh yeah,one can spawn a bot...oh look the other can charge...hey look at this one,he's got some tech shied.
The difference is : there's not enough difference.
the ME soldier had a difference : he was a tank  ,the ME adept could pull huge areas of enemies: that's a difference.
And I can assure you,it's not the new added ,oooh I can curve balls!,gimmicks in ME2 that makes "the difference".

"and different endings all give ME2 more replayability than ME1"
oh yeah,average at best endings are so worth replaying the game just for it....
I mean , the ending where Shepard ,goes & escapes ilos, storms in the invaded Citadel by the geth and make his way to the presidium to have a final showdown with Saren/Sovereign ,watching the human alliance fleet and Joker fighting Sovergein and then the meeting with the Council,choosing the human councilman and delivering a punch line to fight back the Reapers is SO LAME compared to the ME2 ending : Shep goes through Omega Relay,destory big Collector ship, run into a straight corridor,waits in a platform while shooting a few mobs and then fight the lamest boss ever : a giant pile of bones. and the decsion oooooh scary, the decision :keep or not to keep the reaper (that is the question). Smalll talk with TIM and then ...SEQUEL.

And let's not even talk how there wasn't thermal clip and could use different kind of ammos without wasting skills on them... and the armors that could favorise one class of another...

Modifié par yoomazir, 16 février 2010 - 09:54 .


#83
SlySpy00

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www.youtube.com/watch

#84
Ultrabobo

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Forest03, you make a very good and very well written point. I admit i've not looked at the story from that perspective until now, but i agree only in part.

It is true that maybe ME2 wasn't so heavy on the bigger picture plot, there's some, but almost hidden, closure on some questions from the first, some interesting twists and new findings (i would like to be more precise, but i'm afraid of spoilers here).

I think this chapter was more intimate and personal, someone said it before, it took the big picture into a smaller one, giving some sort of "what we're fighting for" feeling.
Keeping in mind the fact ME is a trilogy, i think this perspective was due, and the whole build the team and gain loyalty will pay off in ME3.

In all honesty i agree some characters didn't really have so many ties with the story, but i've liked them nonethless.
That said, thank you for making me see a new point of view, makes everything even more interesting

#85
SamVimes75

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This seems like a good forum to post my opinion in...



I've seen far too many threads about how ME2 is not an RPG, or that they stripped out the RPG elements. Leveling up and Inventory Management do not make an RPG.



Choosing how your Shepard acts is what makes it an RPG. Sure the dialog options are limited (So sad, can't have infinte options on those 2 discs...) but they cover the basic reactions (Diplomatic, Indifferent, and Angry Tool). I'd argue that games like Final Fantasy and Star Ocean are the ones that are not RPGs, you basically level up, wade through a dungeon, and then watch a cutscene that shows how your spiky haired teenager acts and then sell your plethora of useless gear for gold. You don't get to choose how he behaves... You don't have to approach your team mates and learn more about them, you don't even get the choice to. A two hundred floor bonus dungeon with no additional story elements will be the next thing someone will demand for ME3...So long as it has Phat Lewts and Boss Fights.



Character development is part of a story, so it didn't happen during what people consider 'The Main Quest", but the recruitment/loyalty missions may as well be considered main quest, because if you decide to play through the game without doing them, you are missing out.






#86
bjdbwea

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peterflam wrote...

me1 was great. me2 went with the the consolized, broader appeal nonsense and the result was monotonous combat, laughable customization choices, and a more linear game in general.

duck, shoot, duck, power, shoot, rinse repeat. go on to next objective, meet plot character, skip dialog you heard 50 times. deal with your crew's problems, play the same missions 99 percent exactly the same due to ridiculous map designed that funnels you to the same exact spot. ridiculous environments consisting of boxes and waist high square rocks to facilitate the dull cover-based combat.


This. If you want to see a working combination of shooter and RPG elements, look at Fallout 3. Works and sold well on consoles too - see, even that audience doesn't need this amount of dumbing down that ME 2 suffers from. Of course ME 1 was also more sophisticated and sold well too, so there was little reason for this amount of dumbing down anyway.

#87
obie191970

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bjdbwea wrote...

peterflam wrote...

me1 was great. me2 went with the the consolized, broader appeal nonsense and the result was monotonous combat, laughable customization choices, and a more linear game in general.

duck, shoot, duck, power, shoot, rinse repeat. go on to next objective, meet plot character, skip dialog you heard 50 times. deal with your crew's problems, play the same missions 99 percent exactly the same due to ridiculous map designed that funnels you to the same exact spot. ridiculous environments consisting of boxes and waist high square rocks to facilitate the dull cover-based combat.


This. If you want to see a working combination of shooter and RPG elements, look at Fallout 3. Works and sold well on consoles too - see, even that audience doesn't need this amount of dumbing down that ME 2 suffers from. Of course ME 1 was also more sophisticated and sold well too, so there was little reason for this amount of dumbing down anyway.


The problem with peterflam's description of the gameplay in ME2 is you can say the same exact thing about ME1.  If you can honestly descibe it differently, you are looking at ME1 with rose colored glasses.

#88
the_one_54321

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None of this changes the fact that BioWare is not calling ME2 an RPG.

#89
Hizoka003

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see this is what i mean by ignorant people, the overwhelming opinion of the fanbois on this forum think RPG = grinding loot fests, that cannot be father from the truth, yet thats what ignorance dictates.



Sorry if yo lack the attention span for a game to last more then a weekend. Ragardless of what you want to call ME2 its a shooter that is stuck on rails, choosing wht team member you pick up first does not make it non linear, the combat, while better looking the ME1 is repetative. All you do is duck and shoot, duck and ability. You can beat ME2 on insanity without ever spending a talent point with the way combat is. The story to ME2 is good but its a far cry away from what Bioware is cappable of

#90
obie191970

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Hizoka003 wrote...

see this is what i mean by ignorant people, the overwhelming opinion of the fanbois on this forum think RPG = grinding loot fests, that cannot be father from the truth, yet thats what ignorance dictates.


People who disagree with you = Ignorance.  Thank you for the clarification.

Modifié par obie191970, 16 février 2010 - 10:35 .


#91
Hizoka003

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obie191970 wrote...

Hizoka003 wrote...

see this is what i mean by ignorant people, the overwhelming opinion of the fanbois on this forum think RPG = grinding loot fests, that cannot be father from the truth, yet thats what ignorance dictates.


People who disagree with you = Ignorance.  Thank you for the clarification.

yeah you missed the point, but i expected as much.

#92
obie191970

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Hizoka003 wrote...

obie191970 wrote...

Hizoka003 wrote...

see this is what i mean by ignorant people, the overwhelming opinion of the fanbois on this forum think RPG = grinding loot fests, that cannot be father from the truth, yet thats what ignorance dictates.


People who disagree with you = Ignorance.  Thank you for the clarification.

yeah you missed the point, but i expected as much.


Your point is so transparent and tired it's ridiculous.  But, if you feel the need to resort to ad hominem attacks, more power to you.  I've come to expect it around here.

Hizoka003 wrote...
Sorry if yo lack the attention span for a game to last more then a
weekend. Ragardless of what you want to call ME2 its a shooter that is
stuck on rails, choosing wht team member you pick up first does not
make it non linear, the combat, while better looking the ME1 is
repetative. All you do is duck and shoot, duck and ability. You can
beat ME2 on insanity without ever spending a talent point with the way
combat is. The story to ME2 is good but its a far cry away from what
Bioware is cappable of


And this is different from the gameplay in ME1 how?

Modifié par obie191970, 16 février 2010 - 11:06 .


#93
Admoniter

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Hizoka003 wrote...

see this is what i mean by ignorant people, the overwhelming opinion of the fanbois on this forum think RPG = grinding loot fests, that cannot be father from the truth, yet thats what ignorance dictates.


Actually if you bothered to read these "fanbois" arguements, instead of just reading the first sentence and calling them fanbois you'd realize that their arguement is more along the lines of.

 A RPG is not defined by its skill trees, loot system, weapon stats, etc and more by its story, the choices you make and there effect on the game world.

#94
FlintlockJazz

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randumb vanguard wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Oh for ****'s sake people, ME2 is a RPG, deal with it.

*Grabs ME1 and holds a gun to it's head*

Anyone continue this bollocks and I will blow ME1's brains right out! You've pushed me into a corner here, I will do it!

*Realises what he's doing*

Oh well, I've gone this far, you also need to get me one hundred million dollars *puts little finger to mouth as he says this* in unmarked bills, along with a plane that will be flown by Leslie Nielson that will take me to an undisclosed destination. Once I arrive at this destination I will let ME1 go, I truly do not want to hurt him, but you have driven me to this! You only have yourselves to blame!

I'll be waiting!

Posted Image


Oh dear, no one else seems to have cared...:?

*BANG*
*ME1 drops to the floor in a pool of blood*

You forced me to do it, you all pushed me  to it!  Why?!!! :unsure:

*Falls to knees*

I hadn't finished all my playthroughs on it yet!!! :crying:

#95
JamieCOTC

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The last pure Shooter I played was DOOM. No offense, but Pong was more exciting.

#96
EternalWolfe

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

randumb vanguard wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Oh for ****'s sake people, ME2 is a RPG, deal with it.

*Grabs ME1 and holds a gun to it's head*

Anyone continue this bollocks and I will blow ME1's brains right out! You've pushed me into a corner here, I will do it!

*Realises what he's doing*

Oh well, I've gone this far, you also need to get me one hundred million dollars *puts little finger to mouth as he says this* in unmarked bills, along with a plane that will be flown by Leslie Nielson that will take me to an undisclosed destination. Once I arrive at this destination I will let ME1 go, I truly do not want to hurt him, but you have driven me to this! You only have yourselves to blame!

I'll be waiting!

Posted Image


Oh dear, no one else seems to have cared...:?

*BANG*
*ME1 drops to the floor in a pool of blood*

You forced me to do it, you all pushed me  to it!  Why?!!! :unsure:

*Falls to knees*

I hadn't finished all my playthroughs on it yet!!! :crying:


. . . Its not that I don't care . . . its . . .

*Pulls open door where they are creating clones of ME1*

 . . . so . . . yeahPosted Image

#97
TheGreenLion

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Taken literally, all games are RPGs seeing as you play the role of someone/something but not all games go as far as "RPGs" do into the story and characters in it.I guess RPG is less of a literal meaning and more of a guideline that says, "these games labelled RPG will have lots of dialogue and more interaction with NPCs than other games, and you'll probably learn more than you ever wanted to know(or everything) about the world your character exists in." We already have proof that RPGs and Shooters can exist peacefully (ME1, Fallout 3, ME2) so I don't really see the need to have a "showdown" of sorts over which is better than the other. I think that the ME duo is a good hybrid of the two. Complaining that it needs more shooting or more roleplaying is just plain silly, it's a TPSRPG (hmm...) and thus you need to compromise on both sides to fit as much of both genres in as you can. I think it's worked out pretty well for Bioware and I think we'll see more of these hybrid games popping up as developers find ways to maximize the telling of the story they cook up by adding in elements of other genres where the main genre just can't tell it properly, if you get my meaning.

#98
Hizoka003

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that sums up the current gaming market perfictly

#99
DomerPyle

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Hizoka003 wrote...




that sums up the current gaming market perfictly


THIS. it's been this way for a while now, sadly.

#100
Hizoka003

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DomerPyle wrote...

Hizoka003 wrote...




that sums up the current gaming market perfictly


THIS. it's been this way for a while now, sadly.

its a shame really, but its true and these fourm are the personification of what that guy talks about