So there's be a lot of speculation about what the reapers purpose exactly is, continuing the cycle of extinction for millions of years. One that makes a lot of sense to myself is that the reapers were originally some organic race which used extensive cybernetic modification to become reapers. Since then they have been watching other races and "helping" them achieve the same level of "evolutionary perfection" which they have attained. Fits with a lot of what Soverign and Harbinger say imo.
Though I just got to thinking recently what if the reapers were created by a race millions of years ago (maybe even just over 1 Billion years ago given the Leviathan of Dis) as sentient warmachines created from the other races they had conquered at the time. Perhaps this race had somehow left the galaxy or did some kind of ascension, leaving their sentient warships behind to guard their old empire (i.e the citadel and relays). Since then, the reapers have been guarding their makers most precious secrets while continuing on with some standard 'reproductive' protocol that involves repurposing conquered races into new reapers (or servants when their genetics are incompatable, i.e the Collectors). Hell, maybe the original reapers were all organic like the Leviathan allegedly is and they added synthetics to extend their life/operational span and something in that fusion twisted them.
If that was the case I'd come to think this super ancient race isn't all that benevolent. Maybe the reapers don't want their old makers to return because they know what they're capable of. Organics might just be wiped out and repurposed to prevent them from finding a means of contacting those who made the reaper fleet. We don't know for sure that takes 50,000 years every time either, it just took that long from the last cycle until now (and it has been delayed for X years because the Protheans tinkering with the Keepers). Either way, the younger sapient races would be little more than bacteria in the eyes of the reapers and their creators. After culling the galaxy they'd feel as much pitty for us as we do toward the mold colonies we clean out of our bathrooms. Harbinger even says "you are bacteria!"
Not sure how the dark energy issue could figure into this all, can't really think of anything solid at the moment. Maybe whoever is behind that is doing it just to get eezo. It makes sense in a way, not having to wait billions of years for a normal star to supernova. Though the idea of something having the power to manipulate stars just to harvest eezo is almost unfathomable. Though if some ancient race has been lingering around for 60+ million years perhaps they have some crazy use for eezo which requires such absurdly high demand.
Another reaper theory (long, sorry)
Débuté par
Nallski
, févr. 16 2010 12:31
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#2
Posté 16 février 2010 - 12:32
Chief Savage Man
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Don't the reapers require obscenely large amounts of eezo to function? Or am I remembering something wrong?
#3
Posté 16 février 2010 - 12:36
kaotician
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I think that for all their self-regard, the Reapers are just superannuated parasitical cockroaches, unchanged in millions or even billions of years, feeding like giant bugs or a locust swarm on the fresh new dna that does something they haven't in millenia - evolve.
As for element zero, the Reapers rely on it, but it now may well be that dark energy ties into it, forcing premature ageing on stars - or maybe anything else using it........
And that dying star the Reaper relic is found around - maybe it wasn't dying, until the Reaper hoved into view........Maybe that's why they're in dark space - they have to be, to survive, somehow........
As for element zero, the Reapers rely on it, but it now may well be that dark energy ties into it, forcing premature ageing on stars - or maybe anything else using it........
And that dying star the Reaper relic is found around - maybe it wasn't dying, until the Reaper hoved into view........Maybe that's why they're in dark space - they have to be, to survive, somehow........
Modifié par kaotician, 16 février 2010 - 12:40 .
#4
Posté 16 février 2010 - 12:43
Nallski
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@Kaotician
I've kind thought of the reapers as cybernetic parasites too at one time. While the reaper fleet we see has some variation there is still one common element of a large cone/steeple like structure. That may be the core of the actual reaper which attaches itself to a host created from millions of organics. In the art book there's a sketch of an idea for a completed human reaper and it is pretty much a human torso with tentacle arms for legs and a "shell" of sorts on its back which resembles most other reapers. Considering how the keepers look like bugs it wouldn't surprise me to find out the reapers themselves are really somewhat insect-like.
I've kind thought of the reapers as cybernetic parasites too at one time. While the reaper fleet we see has some variation there is still one common element of a large cone/steeple like structure. That may be the core of the actual reaper which attaches itself to a host created from millions of organics. In the art book there's a sketch of an idea for a completed human reaper and it is pretty much a human torso with tentacle arms for legs and a "shell" of sorts on its back which resembles most other reapers. Considering how the keepers look like bugs it wouldn't surprise me to find out the reapers themselves are really somewhat insect-like.
#5
Posté 16 février 2010 - 01:14
kaotician
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When you say 'at one time', do you mean you have another theory? Sounds interesting.
#6
Posté 16 février 2010 - 01:29
ZennExile
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I don't see how people go on these wild tangents about how they think things are without paying attention to one of the most key lore aspects provided to us.
Salvation.
It is made perfectly clear through interaction and codex that the Reapers believe they are protecting the spiecies they indoctrinate. They believe that they are providing a means of ascension.
This could go many different ways but the only real clue beyond the salvation of selected species is that reapers need MASSIVE amounts of genetic paste to replicate.
None of the theories I've seen have even bothered to consider these little tidbits of information. At least they don't appear to. Why would war machines believe in salvation of their enemy? Why would creatures that are "Infinately superior" to anything in the known galaxy fear anything enough to want to destroy it? None of these theories seem to consider the information we already have. How could they ever fit?
Salvation.
It is made perfectly clear through interaction and codex that the Reapers believe they are protecting the spiecies they indoctrinate. They believe that they are providing a means of ascension.
This could go many different ways but the only real clue beyond the salvation of selected species is that reapers need MASSIVE amounts of genetic paste to replicate.
None of the theories I've seen have even bothered to consider these little tidbits of information. At least they don't appear to. Why would war machines believe in salvation of their enemy? Why would creatures that are "Infinately superior" to anything in the known galaxy fear anything enough to want to destroy it? None of these theories seem to consider the information we already have. How could they ever fit?
Modifié par ZennExile, 16 février 2010 - 01:30 .
#7
Posté 16 février 2010 - 01:41
Nallski
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@Zenn
I've considered the whole salvation idea and can see them taking it in a few directions. One being a kinda "save you from your destructive ways" by helping us to evolve under their control. So instead of letting us face our own "inevitable" self-destruction, the reapers save us by preserving our genetic legacy in the form of a reaper.
I also could see them being our salvation from the forces that created the reapers which may be returning to the milky way. As I speculated above, if something made the reapers and left them behind as they evolved or conquered elsewhere they might not be so benevolent. Harbinger even says "You have attracted the attention of those infinitely greater than yourselves." Maybe he meant the rest of the reapers, but considering Harbinger is a reaper himself it would also make sense that he meant some other unrevealed threat. By continuing the cycle to create a massive fleet of reapers to counter the return of something even more horrifying. Maybe they have been culling other sapient races just to build up their numbers for the moment when some species finally attracts the attention of the reapers' creators, or the force which destroyed their creators.
I've considered the whole salvation idea and can see them taking it in a few directions. One being a kinda "save you from your destructive ways" by helping us to evolve under their control. So instead of letting us face our own "inevitable" self-destruction, the reapers save us by preserving our genetic legacy in the form of a reaper.
I also could see them being our salvation from the forces that created the reapers which may be returning to the milky way. As I speculated above, if something made the reapers and left them behind as they evolved or conquered elsewhere they might not be so benevolent. Harbinger even says "You have attracted the attention of those infinitely greater than yourselves." Maybe he meant the rest of the reapers, but considering Harbinger is a reaper himself it would also make sense that he meant some other unrevealed threat. By continuing the cycle to create a massive fleet of reapers to counter the return of something even more horrifying. Maybe they have been culling other sapient races just to build up their numbers for the moment when some species finally attracts the attention of the reapers' creators, or the force which destroyed their creators.
#8
Posté 16 février 2010 - 01:54
ZennExile
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You miss the point. You speculate about your imagination rather than anything tangeble in game. I don't see the purpose. I can make up thousands of imaginary reaper facts an hour without any context to bind my imagination to. There's no point to it. It would be nice to see some speculation that used proper context or was at the very least bound to some tangeble evidence.
#9
Posté 16 février 2010 - 03:01
Nallski
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@Zenn
I'm considering a lot of the context of what is already tangible based upon what's already occurred in game, sorry if I didn't go to the lengths to cite all of it, but I will try to now:
The reapers are at least 53 million years old and seem to be based upon a similar structural "theme." This is apparent from the Derelict Reaper which is found to be approximately 53 million years ago. There is also a planet on ME1 in the Dis system of the Hades Gama cluster which had an ancient organic warship found on its surface. It was briefly studied by Salarian scientists and dated to over 1 billion years old, before a Batarian dreadnought showed up in the system and it mysteriously disappeared. Given there is no direct connection here, but I'm just speculating based upon this context that that Leviathan of Dis is perhaps a "proto-reaper" if you will. Seems uncanny that the reapers turn out to be part organic and are the size of massive warships and there happens to be a 1 billion year old organic warship found somewhere. I'm taking it as a given that the reapers didn't build themselves as machines. Perhaps some species turned themselves into reapers, but they came from somewhere, I can infer that much.
As far as my speculation about them saving us from self-destruction I would think that's basically on par with your theory, not sure why you're trying to say that's not based upon tangible evidence. Sovereign states in ME1 that they apply control to organic evolution. Upon the intro of the human-reaper and Harbinger's taunts, you could infer that by using our genetic code to create a organic-synthetic amalgam is a means of controlling evolution. Conflict is part of the theme in the ME universe. From an utterly deterministic perspective it may seem that conflict would ultimately trump civilization, leading to it's downfall and erasing any evidence of said people. As Shepard you can personally strive to unite the various sapient species or lead them to fight each other, this becomes clear in ME2, especially when it comes to the Quarian and Geth. Or perhaps its just some galactic-scale phenomena which is propagated by advanced civilization (i.e. Dark energy affecting Dholen and other stars). It could simply be the hubris (common theme in literature) of unchecked advancement and overconfidence, humans have advanced faster than any other space-faring race so far. Either way I agree with you that the Reapers do seem to see themselves as some kind of salvation. Harbinger even goes as far as to call you "shortsighted." I think we're essentially on the same side here.
I said they are war machines because they are armed to the teeth. Indoctrination also seems like an excellent means of disrupting any attempted defense while also created sleeper agents for sabotage. Such is mentioned by Vigil on Illos. Now why would warships seek to save their enemy? Because they don't see us as an enemy in the typical way in which we'd see an enemy. We're not much of a threat to them (1 ship wiped out most of a fleet, they have 100s), I think our current uncontrolled and "fragile" form, as Harbinger points, out is just inconvenient to them. They are both destroying us and saving us by repurposing our bodies and letting us live on as they see fit. From the various husk experiments and the human-reaper we can see they may have a more ideal form for us and this fits with Harbinger's taunting. Sovereign seems quite confident in the reapers abilities as "the cycle has been repeated more times than you can fathom."
I'll admit my speculation about the reapers creators is not based on a significant amount of in-game info. I based some of it on the Leviathan of Dis and imagining how advanced a species would be that existed 1 billion years ago and could feasibly "grow" warships, especially if they pre-dated the reapers some how. If that were the case they'd have to be somewhere since we have no other evidence of them, so I just speculated that they either "left" or were destroyed by something, or maybe by their own hubris (which is what the reapers are "saving" us from). There's also the "beings of light" which were mentioned in ME1 which could protect us from the "machine devils," can't remember the exact system/planet off the top of my head. I would also like to think the presence of the citadel and relays tells us that some civilization existed which built and utilized them. It seems unlikely that they were just created as an elaborate trap, but I'm sure we'll find out.
Seeing that the reapers need a massive amount of genetic material to make another reaper I also speculated that the reapers may just be repeating the cycle to inflate their numbers. Why they would do this is unknown, but there has been a subtle hint at some greater threat throughout ME2. Not the strongest evidence, but again these posts are all speculation.
My speculations are largely based upon tangible in-game material, there's A LOT of gray area still to be revealed, but that's half the fun. However, I am not just imagining purple space dragons and assuming I can fit them into the ME lore without context, I just didn't feel like posting an exhaustive list of citations, I type enough already lol. Sorry for the wall of text.
I'm considering a lot of the context of what is already tangible based upon what's already occurred in game, sorry if I didn't go to the lengths to cite all of it, but I will try to now:
The reapers are at least 53 million years old and seem to be based upon a similar structural "theme." This is apparent from the Derelict Reaper which is found to be approximately 53 million years ago. There is also a planet on ME1 in the Dis system of the Hades Gama cluster which had an ancient organic warship found on its surface. It was briefly studied by Salarian scientists and dated to over 1 billion years old, before a Batarian dreadnought showed up in the system and it mysteriously disappeared. Given there is no direct connection here, but I'm just speculating based upon this context that that Leviathan of Dis is perhaps a "proto-reaper" if you will. Seems uncanny that the reapers turn out to be part organic and are the size of massive warships and there happens to be a 1 billion year old organic warship found somewhere. I'm taking it as a given that the reapers didn't build themselves as machines. Perhaps some species turned themselves into reapers, but they came from somewhere, I can infer that much.
As far as my speculation about them saving us from self-destruction I would think that's basically on par with your theory, not sure why you're trying to say that's not based upon tangible evidence. Sovereign states in ME1 that they apply control to organic evolution. Upon the intro of the human-reaper and Harbinger's taunts, you could infer that by using our genetic code to create a organic-synthetic amalgam is a means of controlling evolution. Conflict is part of the theme in the ME universe. From an utterly deterministic perspective it may seem that conflict would ultimately trump civilization, leading to it's downfall and erasing any evidence of said people. As Shepard you can personally strive to unite the various sapient species or lead them to fight each other, this becomes clear in ME2, especially when it comes to the Quarian and Geth. Or perhaps its just some galactic-scale phenomena which is propagated by advanced civilization (i.e. Dark energy affecting Dholen and other stars). It could simply be the hubris (common theme in literature) of unchecked advancement and overconfidence, humans have advanced faster than any other space-faring race so far. Either way I agree with you that the Reapers do seem to see themselves as some kind of salvation. Harbinger even goes as far as to call you "shortsighted." I think we're essentially on the same side here.
I said they are war machines because they are armed to the teeth. Indoctrination also seems like an excellent means of disrupting any attempted defense while also created sleeper agents for sabotage. Such is mentioned by Vigil on Illos. Now why would warships seek to save their enemy? Because they don't see us as an enemy in the typical way in which we'd see an enemy. We're not much of a threat to them (1 ship wiped out most of a fleet, they have 100s), I think our current uncontrolled and "fragile" form, as Harbinger points, out is just inconvenient to them. They are both destroying us and saving us by repurposing our bodies and letting us live on as they see fit. From the various husk experiments and the human-reaper we can see they may have a more ideal form for us and this fits with Harbinger's taunting. Sovereign seems quite confident in the reapers abilities as "the cycle has been repeated more times than you can fathom."
I'll admit my speculation about the reapers creators is not based on a significant amount of in-game info. I based some of it on the Leviathan of Dis and imagining how advanced a species would be that existed 1 billion years ago and could feasibly "grow" warships, especially if they pre-dated the reapers some how. If that were the case they'd have to be somewhere since we have no other evidence of them, so I just speculated that they either "left" or were destroyed by something, or maybe by their own hubris (which is what the reapers are "saving" us from). There's also the "beings of light" which were mentioned in ME1 which could protect us from the "machine devils," can't remember the exact system/planet off the top of my head. I would also like to think the presence of the citadel and relays tells us that some civilization existed which built and utilized them. It seems unlikely that they were just created as an elaborate trap, but I'm sure we'll find out.
Seeing that the reapers need a massive amount of genetic material to make another reaper I also speculated that the reapers may just be repeating the cycle to inflate their numbers. Why they would do this is unknown, but there has been a subtle hint at some greater threat throughout ME2. Not the strongest evidence, but again these posts are all speculation.
My speculations are largely based upon tangible in-game material, there's A LOT of gray area still to be revealed, but that's half the fun. However, I am not just imagining purple space dragons and assuming I can fit them into the ME lore without context, I just didn't feel like posting an exhaustive list of citations, I type enough already lol. Sorry for the wall of text.
#10
Posté 16 février 2010 - 03:29
Mondo47
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I've had one or two thoughts on this myself, pure speculation here.
On one hand the whole exterminate-exterminate bonanza the Reapers go on every so often might be based on a scale: when a civilization gets to a particular level of potential intellect, scientific knowledge or population numbers (or a combination of the three), then they trip off to hammer them flat to avoid this upstart species becoming a threat to their prolonged existence. The Reapers themselves (to me at least) might be an ascended species that passed beyond the need for conventional organic forms and made the jump from natural evolution to entirely self-controlled developement, leading to entirely synthetic community-lifeforms, and the cycle is a rather extreme defence mechanism to avoid potential destruction at the hands of other beings. The problem with this theory though is that the existence they're defending seems to consist of sitting in dark-space doing zip (so unless they've invented the best board game ever or the biggest jigsaw puzzle in creation it's not entirely logical to the human mind at least). Ok, someone might come out to the cold blackness and start causing trouble, but it's got to be a longshot.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, they're not protecting themselves, but trying to uplift all the most successful species to their level. So you become smart enough to join the Reaper-club, then they come along and repurpose your entire race to make more Reapers. Resistance here is not futile, just illogical to them; who wouldn't want to become a practically-immortal race with almost godlike powers? All this screaming and running about is silly... join us join us join us... you've really got no choice in the matter...killing you with kindness, basically. Unfathomable, godlike-alien kindness, but to them at least something to not make such a fuss about. The issue with this theory is the whole deliberate steering of advanced cultures to use all their base-tech as a template is more like a ruse than a test of potential to join the Reaper-club; I can shoot a gun, but it won't make me a marksman anyday soon, so no-one with half a brain will be impressed enough to let me join the gun club.
I can see the gaps in my thinking, sure, but it's fun to ponder... it's better than them turning out to just be robosquids that go to all this trouble because they're so super-evil they've got not much else to do. If life itself was such a pain you could just use mass effect fields to chuck whacking great rocks at every single planet that has life on it, reduce the lot to so much floating gravel and enjoy the silence forever. Life is needed somehow for them to continue; be it as purely the building blocks of more Reapers or something bigger.
I'm hoping for something bigger - anything less would be kinda lazy.
On one hand the whole exterminate-exterminate bonanza the Reapers go on every so often might be based on a scale: when a civilization gets to a particular level of potential intellect, scientific knowledge or population numbers (or a combination of the three), then they trip off to hammer them flat to avoid this upstart species becoming a threat to their prolonged existence. The Reapers themselves (to me at least) might be an ascended species that passed beyond the need for conventional organic forms and made the jump from natural evolution to entirely self-controlled developement, leading to entirely synthetic community-lifeforms, and the cycle is a rather extreme defence mechanism to avoid potential destruction at the hands of other beings. The problem with this theory though is that the existence they're defending seems to consist of sitting in dark-space doing zip (so unless they've invented the best board game ever or the biggest jigsaw puzzle in creation it's not entirely logical to the human mind at least). Ok, someone might come out to the cold blackness and start causing trouble, but it's got to be a longshot.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, they're not protecting themselves, but trying to uplift all the most successful species to their level. So you become smart enough to join the Reaper-club, then they come along and repurpose your entire race to make more Reapers. Resistance here is not futile, just illogical to them; who wouldn't want to become a practically-immortal race with almost godlike powers? All this screaming and running about is silly... join us join us join us... you've really got no choice in the matter...killing you with kindness, basically. Unfathomable, godlike-alien kindness, but to them at least something to not make such a fuss about. The issue with this theory is the whole deliberate steering of advanced cultures to use all their base-tech as a template is more like a ruse than a test of potential to join the Reaper-club; I can shoot a gun, but it won't make me a marksman anyday soon, so no-one with half a brain will be impressed enough to let me join the gun club.
I can see the gaps in my thinking, sure, but it's fun to ponder... it's better than them turning out to just be robosquids that go to all this trouble because they're so super-evil they've got not much else to do. If life itself was such a pain you could just use mass effect fields to chuck whacking great rocks at every single planet that has life on it, reduce the lot to so much floating gravel and enjoy the silence forever. Life is needed somehow for them to continue; be it as purely the building blocks of more Reapers or something bigger.
I'm hoping for something bigger - anything less would be kinda lazy.
