192 réponses à ce sujet

[Graunt]

I really, and I mean really want to see you use CQC in the Tali recruitment mission on the last area that has a billion Geth firing from all angles at you at the same time while having to deal with the Colossus knockback garbage even when taking cover.  It's bad enough playing at a distance.  You can cheese your way through a side with cloak and having your allies die, then picking off whatever is left that was on the way and reviving them but it's pretty lame.  I've also always had to resort to heavy weapons like the singularity gun on this mission as an Infiltrator for at least two shots.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 11:16 .

[WillieStyle]

thisisme8, you've inspired me to rethink Infiltrator dps.
My conclusion: using the Tempest SMG in close range with Tactical Cloak is more dps than using the Widow with Tactical Cloak even if you score headshots!

Let's assume Tactical Cloak boosts damage for ~2 secs after you start firing.
In 2 seconds you can get off 1 shot with the Widow for 368.3 damage.
In 2 seconds you can get off 30 shots with the Tempest for 420.0 (I rounded down the number of shots you can get off with the Tempest to be conservative).
So, within the Tactical Cloack window, you do 14% more damage with the Tempest than the Widow.

Ok I know what you're thinking: what about head shots?
If you're in close range, then you'll land headshots with the Tempest too. Also, the more bonuses you stack on both weapons, the less important the +50% bonus headshot damage for Sniper Rifles becomes. Also, the Tempest will do more damage per thermal clip than the Widow.

Finally, and this is a little counter-intuitive, but the fact that using the SMG doesn't trigger Slow-mo is actually a benefit. Think about Adrenaline Rush. It increases damage by +100% but reduces attack speed by 50%. If you have no other bonuses, it's a wash. But the more bonuses you stack, the more Adrenaline Rush reduces you're "real time" dps. Tactical cloak with the SMG is like 70% Adrenaline Rush but without the reduction in attack speed.

If (and it's a big if) Tactical Cloak boosts damage for ~2 secs after firing your first shot, then an Infiltrator with the Tempest SMG will do more dps than even the mighty Soldier with Adrenaline Rush and the Revenant.  This assumes you're at close enough range that the terrible accuracy of SMGs isn't an issue.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 19 février 2010 - 11:27 .

[vadrillan]

I'm pretty sure you don't get the cloak bonus dmg for anywhere near 2 seconds. Personally I debated whether all 3 shots from the Incisor got the bonus



Nevertheless, tac cloak allows you to get to point blank with the SMG and spray....and with the double dmg that gives you it rinses most things pretty quick

[Besetment]

What do you use to record video and encode? I'm using Fraps, recording 1280 x 800 half screen size at 29.97 fps and encoding using VirtualDub + XVid mpeg-4. File size is pretty decent but it doesn't look as good as your vids. Looks softer.

I've tried recording Fraps in 1280 x 800 full screen then encoding using VirtualDub + XVid but it eats so much disk space its scary. It looks better but man I can't be making long full screen vids. 60 seconds of .avi video before encoding takes about 900mb and it *murders* my framerate. Also uploading to youtube take a thousand years.

This is the only full screen video I've got at the moment and I dunno. It just doesn't look as nice and it took over an hour to upload:



Edit: do you have film grain on or off? I just thought about it and I have it turned on but I don't think it looks good in youtube.

Modifié par Besetment, 19 février 2010 - 01:54 .

[R-F]

you sir have some serious balls to rush with the infiltrator. i've never got the cryo ammo to pay off for me, so congrats on that. it's pretty amusing to see an infiltrator play like that.

also make sure to record your attempt at the collector's ship (assuming your playing on insanity). i want to see that, as i myself have no earthly idea how i would have survived without the timely headshots.

Modifié par R-F, 19 février 2010 - 04:04 .

[khevan]

This is actually pretty similar to how I play my Infiltrator. I'm a good bit more conservative (I do like the sniper rifle) but Tac Cloak + Running up to cover with a baddie on the other side + Tempest SMG = good times, good times.



I just love the flexibility of Tac Cloak. Flanking, escaping, damage bonus, hell, just using it to advance your position works wonders. I remember specifically one N7 mission (the geth weather thingy mission) where everything was so foggy it was hard to see. I'd cloak, run up to the nearest geth, cap him with the Tempest, drop to cover until cloak cooled down, rinse, repeat. Made that mission almost trivial.



Glad to see I'm not the only one who uses Cloak as more than a damage boost!

[thisisme8]

R-F wrote...

you sir have some serious balls to rush with the infiltrator. i've never got the cryo ammo to pay off for me, so congrats on that. it's pretty amusing to see an infiltrator play like that.

also make sure to record your attempt at the collector's ship (assuming your playing on insanity). i want to see that, as i myself have no earthly idea how i would have survived without the timely headshots.

I do.  I plan on trying something special for the Collector Ship.  
Also, I always play on Insanity, but after a couple vids I decided that you either believe me or you don't.  Starting every mission and going through the options to show it's on Insanity and how cool I am isn't the point.  I just want to have fun.

Besetment wrote...
What do you use to record video and encode? I'm using Fraps,
recording 1280 x 800 half screen size at 29.97 fps and encoding using
VirtualDub + XVid mpeg-4. File size is pretty decent but it doesn't
look as good as your vids. Looks softer.

I've tried recording
Fraps in 1280 x 800 full screen then encoding using VirtualDub + XVid
but it eats so much disk space its scary. It looks better but man I
can't be making long full screen vids. 60 seconds of .avi video before
encoding takes about 900mb and it *murders* my framerate. Also
uploading to youtube take a thousand years.

This is the only
full screen video I've got at the moment and I dunno. It just doesn't
look as nice and it took over an hour to upload:



Edit:
do you have film grain on or off? I just thought about it and I have it
turned on but I don't think it looks good in youtube.

Using Fraps and VirtualDub like you, but I'm recording at full with all special graphics options turned off (framerate issues).  Also, my screen res is set to 1440 x *** I don't remember the last number.  Don't get me wrong, the file sizes are enormous, but VirtualDub can reduce them significantly.

[Besetment]

thisisme8 wrote...
Using Fraps and VirtualDub like you, but I'm recording at full with all special graphics options turned off (framerate issues).  Also, my screen res is set to 1440 x *** I don't remember the last number.  Don't get me wrong, the file sizes are enormous, but VirtualDub can reduce them significantly.

Holy crap you must have a hard drive the size of wembley stadium. I'm running close to a gig per minute at lower res.

Modifié par Besetment, 19 février 2010 - 07:15 .

[DirewolfX]

thisisme8 wrote...
I do.  I plan on trying something special for the Collector Ship.  
Also, I always play on Insanity, but after a couple vids I decided that you either believe me or you don't.  Starting every mission and going through the options to show it's on Insanity and how cool I am isn't the point.  I just want to have fun.

Yeah, I think most people here or are following the serious tactics discussions are playing on insanity.  It's really a lot more fun.  I do think the PC version seems a bit easier... either you're not getting targetted as much or you just have an easier time aiming with the mouse.  We shall see when I get my PC fixed, since I grabbed it for both platforms. =p

[thisisme8]

I don't know if you played ME1 on the PC, but the 1rst hour or so is a pain since they switched the Shift and Spacebar. It's like second nature now though.

[thisisme8]

Graunt wrote...

I really, and I mean really want to see you use CQC in the Tali recruitment mission on the last area that has a billion Geth firing from all angles at you at the same time while having to deal with the Colossus knockback garbage even when taking cover.  It's bad enough playing at a distance.  You can cheese your way through a side with cloak and having your allies die, then picking off whatever is left that was on the way and reviving them but it's pretty lame.  I've also always had to resort to heavy weapons like the singularity gun on this mission as an Infiltrator for at least two shots.

There you go dude.  Just for you!

ME2 - CQC Infiltrator - Colossus

Modifié par thisisme8, 20 février 2010 - 04:15 .

[mundus66]

Lol cool idea, i've got to try this on my next game. Are you planning on picking up the shotgun on the collector ship or what?

[thisisme8]

mundus66 wrote...

Lol cool idea, i've got to try this on my next game. Are you planning on picking up the shotgun on the collector ship or what?

It is sooooooooo tempting.  Evi + Cloak + melee shoulders just seems like all around win.

[smudboy]

Yes, because CQC = Shepard's shoulder attack.

[thisisme8]

smudboy wrote...

Yes, because CQC = Shepard's shoulder attack.

:huh:I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not.  I've heard this a couple times already, but CQC stands for Close Quarters Combat and actually involves impact and grappling techniques as well as knives and pistols if available.

I'm fully aware of the limitations of actually trying CQC in a shooter, but there is more to it than just what Hideo told you.  Anyway, CQC seems to accurately represent my Infiltrator who exceeds at combat in close quarters.

Modifié par thisisme8, 20 février 2010 - 05:36 .

[thisisme8]

WillieStyle wrote...

thisisme8, you've inspired me to rethink Infiltrator dps.
My conclusion: using the Tempest SMG in close range with Tactical Cloak is more dps than using the Widow with Tactical Cloak even if you score headshots!

Let's assume Tactical Cloak boosts damage for ~2 secs after you start firing.
In 2 seconds you can get off 1 shot with the Widow for 368.3 damage.
In 2 seconds you can get off 30 shots with the Tempest for 420.0 (I rounded down the number of shots you can get off with the Tempest to be conservative).
So, within the Tactical Cloack window, you do 14% more damage with the Tempest than the Widow.

Ok I know what you're thinking: what about head shots?
If you're in close range, then you'll land headshots with the Tempest too. Also, the more bonuses you stack on both weapons, the less important the +50% bonus headshot damage for Sniper Rifles becomes. Also, the Tempest will do more damage per thermal clip than the Widow.

Finally, and this is a little counter-intuitive, but the fact that using the SMG doesn't trigger Slow-mo is actually a benefit. Think about Adrenaline Rush. It increases damage by +100% but reduces attack speed by 50%. If you have no other bonuses, it's a wash. But the more bonuses you stack, the more Adrenaline Rush reduces you're "real time" dps. Tactical cloak with the SMG is like 70% Adrenaline Rush but without the reduction in attack speed.

If (and it's a big if) Tactical Cloak boosts damage for ~2 secs after firing your first shot, then an Infiltrator with the Tempest SMG will do more dps than even the mighty Soldier with Adrenaline Rush and the Revenant.  This assumes you're at close enough range that the terrible accuracy of SMGs isn't an issue.

Yeah, regardless of what anyone says and how I need to get Warp or AP Ammo; as you can tell from the videos, damage is not a problem for me at all (the damage bonus vs. Synthetics from Disrupter Ammo is just a bonus since I only use it for the stun/lockdown effect).  As a matter of fact (and note, I don't have the Widow so this could be inaccurate), I kill faster and more consistently up close with the SMG than I do with the Sniper Rifle.  It doesn't mean sniping doesn't have its place, it just means that while most of us have labelled what works and doesn't work and set it in stone, the truth is, there is a lot more game in there to be figured out.

[Besetment]

You could do with using the sniper rifle (Widow) more as there are some situations where you go pretty long range with the SMG and a single Widow shot would do the trick instead. I need to do the opposite - use the SMG alot more to avoid retreats. I know its possible now that I've seen the videos and I've had a go but I find it pretty rough on NG+. I dunno, I can't seem to live long enough to kill a whole lot and the recoil is *horrible*. Alot of this can be reduced by completely changing tactics and advancing through the levels in different ways but I find it sometimes doesn't leave me in a situation where its good to snipe from.

Striking a good balance between CQC and long range I think is the target in order to get the absolute most out of the Infiltrator. I wouldn't mind posting up some timed runs to see how we can shave seconds off a Horizon clear time or something. When I get to Horizon, I'll post up a video, Widow only and no bonus power and if you want we can compare runs to see where you can save time with the SMG and where you can save time with Widow. What upgrades did you have by Horizon? Right now I'm thinking of going no upgrades for the rest of the game (its pretty intense).

Cloak management for me is quite flexible anyway in the sense that there are lots of situations where I habitually cloak headshot and I don't need to because one shot kills anyway. Thats a potentially good window to exploit the smg and reserve a cloak for getting into a position for SMG kills. Not really used to it yet though.

Modifié par Besetment, 20 février 2010 - 08:29 .

[thisisme8]

I totally agree with you about balance. For maximum speed, I could do a few things different. For maximum action though? The style represented in the videos is only one of the ways for me to enjoy the class. I totally understand the appeal of the long distant sniper (almost typed spider... that'd be an interesting class) and have gotten plenty of satisfaction from that style of gameplay in other games.

Re upgrades: I had all the sniper, SMG, and medigel upgrades available at that point in the game. I think 1/5 tech but generally just whatever upgrades you find on the Mordin, Archangel, Prof. Okeer, and Convict missions.

So let's see some vids!

Edited for grammer (get it?  grammar?)

Modifié par thisisme8, 20 février 2010 - 09:04 .

[Besetment]

thisisme8 wrote...

I totally agree with you about balance. For maximum speed, I could do a few things different. For maximum action though? The style represented in the videos is only one of the ways for me to enjoy the class. I totally understand the appeal of the long distant sniper (almost typed spider... that'd be an interesting class) and have gotten plenty of satisfaction from that style of gameplay in other games.

Re upgrades: I had all the sniper, SMG, and medigel upgrades available at that point in the game. I think 1/5 tech but generally just whatever upgrades you find on the Mordin, Archangel, Prof. Okeer, and Convict missions.

So let's see some vids!

Edited for grammer (get it?  grammar?)

This is gonna be fun. I started Horizon and saw an opening with the SMG. So I cloaked and steamrolled out all pumped up and I...missed a couple of times. 2 seconds later I am now Collector pizza. I need to work on this a bit but I'll throw up links to some bloopers later on. Just so everyone can see what happens when you get it wrong.

Edit: grammar!

Modifié par Besetment, 20 février 2010 - 09:28 .

[Graunt]

thisisme8 wrote...
Haestrom:  Recruiting Tali.  Sun wasn't as bad as I thought, level 2 Disrupter Ammo destroyed the Geth.  Made a montage of the first 3/4 of the level and left the whole Colossus fight in.
ME2 - CQC Infiltrator - Colossus
Level 12
2  Disrupter Ammo
1  Cryo Ammo
4  Enhanced Cloak
1  Incinterate
0  AI Hacking
4  Agent
I know what you're thinking, but 8s of Cloak +40% damage is more important to me than 6s Cloak +75%.  As you can see in my videos, I have no problem with damage...  Although I should have put a point into AI Hacking before going to Haestrom
Edit:  I should note that Disrupter Ammo vs. Geth essentially does the same thing as Cryo Ammo vs. Organics:  It allows me to lock single target oppenents down while I finish them off...  although the effects vs. Synthetics seem a little more drastic if not as long.

If anyone is or has played this kind of Infiltrator, go ahead and drop some tips, advice, or just tell about your experience.  I know I can use the help.

Good job, I tried playing that area (well, all but the Colossus area) similarly after watching your Horizon video, except I brought Zaeed/Miranda instead.  You make a pretty good point with the cloak duration too, it fits that style of play much more than the higher damage version, and since you're always trying to be up close you're getting double damage anyway. 

I like how you started out the Colossus area too and decided to go for a middle route.  I kept resetting due to one or more of my allies dying and I didn't want to waste a medigel so early, and I finally just rushed up through the top right side killing the geth along the way, cloaking, killing one up on the platform then running for cover as my allies died to the sun along the way, revived them, finished off what was below near the Colosus and just poked it to death.  I think I also ended up exploding one of the pyros up on the platform with overload and it took out two others, or close to it.

I'm not criticizing you at all when I say this, but the reason why I said I wanted to see you do this section is because I was wanting to see you employ similar tactics as what you did on Horizon, and while you did get up close for your kills, there was a lot more crouching going on it seemed like.  Any time I tried just going from point to point there would simply be too many geth up at a time for constant movement.  In hindsight, it may have been better to bring Garrus over Zaeed simply because manually using overload is more reliable than hoping your allies strip, then stun specific targets, and clearing out either the right or left side quickly is pretty important.

I also agree with the balance aspect of the class.  Before watching your first CQC video I probably only used that tactic once or twice on my initial Infiltrator playthrough, and on my second I only had Tali and something else left (I don't remember what), but I started employing it a lot more and it's definitely fun AND conserves ammo for the more important snipe targets.  Much faster than just using Incinerate over and over.  At least once you're off Omega anyway.  

Also, I've never really paid it that much attention but when does the respec option actually open up, and do you not consider it somewhat like "cheating" if you end up respeccing each time for specific missions, or are you just doing it for experimental reasons? Or would you consider it something nerdy like plugging into the Matrix, but having to simply shuffle things around instead of actually adding more memories?

For maximum speed, I could do a few things different. For maximum action though?

I think the point though is that if you take out priority targets, or at least whittle a swarm out quicker by sniping/heavy weapon etc that means less crouching and more in their face action.  You really don't need to cloak to snipe either.  I don't see how speed and action would have to be mutually exclusive.  Maybe you just mean less visceral kills?

Modifié par Graunt, 21 février 2010 - 02:30 .

[thisisme8]

Graunt wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...
Haestrom:  Recruiting Tali.  Sun wasn't as bad as I thought, level 2 Disrupter Ammo destroyed the Geth.  Made a montage of the first 3/4 of the level and left the whole Colossus fight in.
ME2 - CQC Infiltrator - Colossus
Level 12
2  Disrupter Ammo
1  Cryo Ammo
4  Enhanced Cloak
1  Incinterate
0  AI Hacking
4  Agent
I know what you're thinking, but 8s of Cloak +40% damage is more important to me than 6s Cloak +75%.  As you can see in my videos, I have no problem with damage...  Although I should have put a point into AI Hacking before going to Haestrom
Edit:  I should note that Disrupter Ammo vs. Geth essentially does the same thing as Cryo Ammo vs. Organics:  It allows me to lock single target oppenents down while I finish them off...  although the effects vs. Synthetics seem a little more drastic if not as long.

Good job, I tried playing that area (well, all but the colossus area) similarly after watching your Horizon video, except I brought Zaeed/Miranda instead.  You make a pretty good point with the cloak duration too, it fits that style of play much more than the higher damage version, and since you're always trying to be up close you're getting double damage anyway. 

I like how you started out the Colossus area too and decided to go for a middle route.  I kept resetting due to one or more of my allies dying and I didn't want to waste a medigel so early, and I finally just rushed up through the top right side killing the geth along the way, cloaking, killing one up on the platform then running for cover as my allies died to the sun along the way, revived them, finished off what was below near the Colosus and just poked it to death.  I think I also ended up exploding one of the pyros up on the platform with overload and it took out two others, or close to it.

I'm not criticizing you at all when I say this, but the reason why I said I wanted to see you do this section is because I was wanting to see you employ similar tactics as what you did on Horizon, and while you did get up close for your kills, there was a lot more crouching going on it seemed like.  Any time I tried just going from point to point there would simply be too many geth up at a time for constant movement.  In hindsight, it may have been better to bring Garrus over Zaeed simply because manually using overload is more reliable than hoping your allies strip, then stun specific targets, and clearing out either the right or left side quickly is pretty important.

I also agree with the balance aspect of the class.  Before watching your first CQC video I probably only used that tactic once or twice on my initial Infiltrator playthrough, and on my second I only had Tali and something else left (I don't remember what), but I started employing it a lot more and it's definitely fun AND conserves ammo for the more important snipe targets.  Much faster than just using Incinerate over and over.

No offense taken there.  I'll be the first to admit going straight up the middle with respawning Geth on all sides is no joke.   Throw in the very little amounts of cover, a Colossus raining heavy artillery on you, and the sun overloading your shields = no covert ops here.  Besides, it's the middle of the day!

I tried to use the sniper rifle as little as possible on that part so I only pulled it out on the Colossus and when I knew the Geth Destroyer was coming.  Thing is, I knew when he'd be coming so I had it out a whole 20s or so early...   I may try that area again and see how it goes if I flank to either side.  Going left seems a little better since I'll have a direct line of sight to the Destroyer when he spawns.  We'll see.

Regarding the Cloak:  Like I said above, the duration helps so much and you saw how well 2 levels of Disrupter just tears those guys apart.  The extra damage would come in handy if I mainly sniped, but I don't and 2s is huge for me when I'm Cloaked.  Plus, if I don't like it, it's only like 5,000 eezo to retrain.

Last thing:  How is Incinerate once fully upgraded?

Edited for annoying and bad writing habits on my part. <_<

Modifié par thisisme8, 21 février 2010 - 02:36 .

[thisisme8]

Graunt wrote...

Also, I've never really paid it that much attention but when does the respec option actually open up, and do you not consider it somewhat like "cheating" if you end up respeccing each time for specific missions, or are you just doing it for experimental reasons? Or would you consider it something nerdy like plugging into the Matrix, but having to simply shuffle things around instead of actually adding more memories?

For maximum speed, I could do a few things different. For maximum action though?

I think the point though is that if you take out priority targets, or at least whittle a swarm out quicker by sniping/heavy weapon etc that means less crouching and more in their face action.  You really don't need to cloak to snipe either.  I don't see how speed and action would have to be mutually exclusive.  Maybe you just mean less visceral kills?

Retraining opens up right after Horizon.  I usually only retrain once to get rid of my bonus power.  By the time Horizon is over I have a pretty good idea of how I want the build to go.  I did retrain several times on my Vanguard to see about AP, Warp, and Incendiary Ammo and the cost-benefit of each.  I wrote that in there because I think everyone should really try certain things (at least on their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th playthrough) before completely discounting them. 

For Infiltrators, most people will completely ignore a 2s bonus in Cloak time because 35% more damage sounds too good to pass up.  For the style I like to play, 2s can mean the perfect position, the perfect flank, or staying alive.  I'm usually not chilling 100m away in cloak with my rifle out, I'm running right at them.  I should note that back in my Battlefield days I loved sniping, but for this game I don't know why, I just like getting in close.  Maybe it's because it's singleplayer?  I don't know.

You're actually spot on.  To mix more tactical sniping (priority targets, prime location targets etc.) into my style ahead of advancing in would definitely increase speed and manageability.  And by action, I did mean visceral kills.

This run I want to take it to the extreme opposite of where most people are going with it.  Hopefully a few people watch the vids and can mix both styles in and find a happy medium.  The point is that people said the Infiltrator was a one-trick, cloak-snipe pony and I wanted to show that it's not.

[SpezXVII]

I'm at a crossroad. Should I go with the Widow (though I CQC so I don't snipe much), Assault rifle training, or shotgun for the Evi?

[thisisme8]

I think for the style of play, getting the AR would be redundant. I have no idea about the shotgun + Cloak... and the Widow is a big bad rifle, which you should be used to. Sorry, no answer from me. I'm just as confused.

[Graunt]

I ended up taking the area of effect Incinerate mostly to deal with husks and security bots.  I think maybe for this class though the heavy version would have been better as I found myself usually only hitting one target the majority of the time anyway even when there would be a second or third nearby.  It was also the skill I decided to max out first just for rushing though Omega, and using Miranda/Zaeed for Warp/Grenade with Incinerate would literally blow 1-2 things up at once instantly quite often.  

The funniest example of this was when running to the first fan room, I blew up a Pryro as soon as the door opened and everything around it was dead before even exiting.  Doing that does rely on cooldowns, but with how much crouching you have to do in between shooting anyway, I don't really see it falling behind in terms of speed, especially wnen it doesn't require worrying about wasting ammo because of bad aim.

From my own experience, sniping is an option but often ammo starts becoming a concern and you have to resort to using Incinerate anyway and Miranda's squad bonus doesn't seem to be as big a factor that early in the game with such limited ammo.  I may just try out the standard Jacob/Miranda combo with CQC but I was going for speed and would mostly use cloak for running to area triggers.

Also, does Tactical Cloak gain a duration bonus from the Tech or "power"  duration upgrade?  If so, the 8 second version would be affected even more.

Modifié par Graunt, 21 février 2010 - 03:41 .