36 réponses à ce sujet

[DannyGloverfromPredator2_]

Or are they really just so far beyond us that applying human morality to their actions is ridiculous?

Consider what we know (or at least think we know) about Reapers at this point:
1) They've been around for millions and millions of years
2) There are, at this point, a whole lot of them
3) They seem to reproduce by "ascending" a worthy species through facilities like the Collector base to make a new Reaper

Taking those facts, I project the Reaper existence as something like this...

ORIGIN: Currently unknown, but I'm going to make an assumption that either a) they are actually a form of divinity in the universe or they resulted from some species a long long time ago reaching a technological singularity and become the first Reaper(s).  Or something else, not really important right now.

LIFESPAN: Effectively eternal, unless killed by something.  Shepard and Co. killed Sovereign in ME1, something shot the crap out of the derelict Reaper seen in ME2.

REPRODUCTION: Some of what I say is theorizing, but I see it as follows.  Every 50,000 years the Reapers check in on high level evolved organic life.  They kill everything there, with a chance of "ascending" a worthy race by virtue of Reaper making (as seen on the Collector base in ME2 with humans).  If a species has reached a genetic and technological level worthy of Reaperdom, they "ascend" that race by making one (or more) Reapers from its people, kill everything else, go back to Dark Space.  

THOUGHTS:  
This explains the Reaper preoccupation with Shepard.  He managed to organize the killing of Sovereign, which draws positive attention to him (and humanity) by the Reapers.  Hence the attempt at making a Human-Reaper in ME2 in the Collector Base.  That, from the Reaper perspective, really is "salvation through destrucftion" - they are ascending humanity into their ranks.  Harbinger repeatedly mentions in combat trying to preserve Shepard's body - perhaps Shepard was intended to be the primary governing consciousness in the human ascended Reaper. 

For the Reapers, 50,000 years provides time for another species to evolve to a state worthy of being ascended to Reaperdom.  Perhaps 50,000 years was how long it took the origin species to arise from basic sentience to becoming a Reaper and they figure that's a good timeline.  Also, it seems unlikely they have any way of reproducing WITHOUT the Reaper making process we learned about in ME2.  So, for them, the cycle of extinction is the way they continue to add to their species, ever increasing the diversity within the Reaper ranks, and reaffirming their rules for evolutionary process. 

At the 50,000 year mark, either you are ascended or killed off.  Either way, the reset button is hit and less evolved species now have their shot at fitting the bill.  Here on earth, we cut people from sports teams who aren't good enough, we fire people from jobs that aren't qualified.  This is analagous to the way the Reapers look at organic life every 50,000 years: either you make the team, or you're cut (unfortunately, cut means extinct or enslaved).  Either way, it's for the betterment of the Reapers, and they would argue, for the galaxy, because it ascends those that have reached a certain level, and resets everything else.  The Reapers see the 50,000 year mark as ample time for "tryouts" in the sense that a species will or will not have achieved a sufficient genetic and technological point. 

So, a few questions:
1) Since the cycle of extinction has gone on for so long, and it leads to new Reapers along the way, which implies a great deal of diversity within the Reaper ranks... is it possible that some sentient friendly Reapers might be out there?
2) In some sense, the Reapers are very much the paramount achievement and instrument of Darwinian Survival of the Fittest... so are their actions evil?  Is it even reasonable to apply our morality to them?
3) How AWESOME are the Reapers as an antagonist?  They have so much depth, kudos to Bioware.

[HAGA NAGA]

They're scum.

I'm sure they have some rationale for what they do. they probably look at their human-reaper project as "perfecting" the human race and increasing human longevity or something, but F that. you can't kill that many people and justify your actions. i hate em. they must be irradicated.

[Dishwasher64]

I thought about this myself, and I was reminded of the book Speaker for the Dead and something Ender said. Basically, it comes down to this: the Reapers are looking out for themselves, trying to make themselves great, which isn't in itself evil. Except that in their case, they are building themselves up at the expense of other races. They decided that only they will be allowed to be great, no one else.



I don't believe in the idea of "pure evil," as in someone who literally wants everyone to suffer just because he's evil. There's always some kind of motive or goal. But at the same time, there IS evil, and the Reapers are a form of it. They aren't destroying stuff just for the sake of destroying, but that doesn't excuse them.

[Niddy']

They are saviors of the universe. Too bad for the universe because I enjoy my time with Jack and will have to destroy them; dooming the universe in the process.

[DannyGloverfromPredator2_]

Dishwasher64 wrote...

I thought about this myself, and I was reminded of the book Speaker for the Dead and something Ender said. Basically, it comes down to this: the Reapers are looking out for themselves, trying to make themselves great, which isn't in itself evil. Except that in their case, they are building themselves up at the expense of other races. They decided that only they will be allowed to be great, no one else.

I don't believe in the idea of "pure evil," as in someone who literally wants everyone to suffer just because he's evil. There's always some kind of motive or goal. But at the same time, there IS evil, and the Reapers are a form of it. They aren't destroying stuff just for the sake of destroying, but that doesn't excuse them.

I think a Reaper would reply that they are not destroying, but selecting the most fit for immortality; for them, it's a matter of natural selection where they have achieved such a level of power/sophistication/immortality/etc. that they are an agent of nature and get to do the selecting.  If no one can stop them, are they wrong?

[DannyGloverfromPredator2_]

In ME3, perhaps the potential exists for an ultimately peaceful settlement with the Reapers (after a lot of ass kicking) or even Reaper allies. Reapers might decide to cease their attempts at extermination based upon the resistance proving to them the value of sentient life - leading to either peace with the collective Reapers, or a break in the Reaper ranks between those bent on extermination and those that have changed their minds. A lot of ways to go with this.

[CajunRexShepard]

DannyGloverfromPredator2 wrote...

Dishwasher64 wrote...

I thought about this myself, and I was reminded of the book Speaker for the Dead and something Ender said. Basically, it comes down to this: the Reapers are looking out for themselves, trying to make themselves great, which isn't in itself evil. Except that in their case, they are building themselves up at the expense of other races. They decided that only they will be allowed to be great, no one else.

I don't believe in the idea of "pure evil," as in someone who literally wants everyone to suffer just because he's evil. There's always some kind of motive or goal. But at the same time, there IS evil, and the Reapers are a form of it. They aren't destroying stuff just for the sake of destroying, but that doesn't excuse them.

I think a Reaper would reply that they are not destroying, but selecting the most fit for immortality; for them, it's a matter of natural selection where they have achieved such a level of power/sophistication/immortality/etc. that they are an agent of nature and get to do the selecting.  If no one can stop them, are they wrong?

Ah, the "might makes right" Philosophy... They certainly wouldn't view themselves as evil, but they *do* view themselves as superior, and do wish utter destruction on those they consider inferior before they become advanced enough to be a threat. That is less evil IMHO and more fear-based... I.E.- "if we don't wipe them out now and make even more of *us*, then they'll come and get us and we'll be gone!"... maybe not that simplistic, but you get the idea. I believe they, for all their advances, are still subject to their primary programming, or their instincts if you wish to believe they are hybrids of machine and biological matter- and that primary programming being the elimination of all lesser predators to ensure alpha status in your own ecology... just like the Krogan, and every other race that had to fight, think, poison, camoflage, or cheat its way out of the primordial muck and to the top of it's food chain.... the difference with the reapers being that their 'food chain' encompasses the entire galaxy due to their advancement and size rather than a single world.... Therein lies their fault as well. They got so used to being the top dog that they got sloppy. Something shot down the one you encounter in ME2. The protheans got evolved enough to leave behind evidence and plans for defeating the reapers, but ultimately failed. Shepard actually defeats one, and prevents more from arriving... for now. They are now scared, they realize they may have waited too late, and the 'lessers' stand poised, emboldened, and possibly able to either prevent them from returning... or defeat them even if they do.   To me, the reapers are similar to us in certain ways... like ancient Rome, they were so fat with their own power that they never saw the end coming... like most humans, they fear change and seek the comfort and ease of the pattern that always was... like someone droning on in an endless job, they may not even understand why they do what they do... they just do it because they always have.

[Pax1138]

In the grand scheme of things, especially in relation to the "natural" universe, which has no concept of good or evil, whether the Reapers are moral or amoral is irrelevant. They are selfish, and desire to go about their selfish ends regardless of the pain and misery they cause. Human selfishly desire to continue living, though that is somewhat, ah... understandable. The unfeeling universe cares not for who is right or wrong, merely who is left standing in the end. (And since this is a game made by humans, for humans, I can guess which way it's going to go..."

[Default137]

I always got the vibe that they considered ascension an honor, rather then a means of reproducing, and considering being made a Spectre was also a "honor" and fighting for the Alliance was an "honor" I get the feeling our conceptions that they are just doing this to reproduce or something like that will get blown away in ME3, and we may have an even worse enemy on our hands.

Or maybe I've just played so many Bioware games that I recognize their means of foreshadowing to well.

Modifié par Default137, 16 février 2010 - 05:19 .

[redloz]

Please Bioware, please don't reveal that the only actual, consistant enemy and true threat of the entire universe for 2-3 games are infact the good guys.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

I hope that even by the third game, they don't explain the Reapers motivation and it remains vague and unknowing... it would stay true with H.P. Lovecraft's work.

[newcomplex]

If what you said is true, I'd probably support the reapers.



mebbe im just kind of nutty.

[DannyGloverfromPredator2_]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I hope that even by the third game, they don't explain the Reapers motivation and it remains vague and unknowing... it would stay true with H.P. Lovecraft's work.

They have at least, partially revealed motivations.  We saw the motivation to build a new Reaper in ME2 - the motivation for reproduction is a pretty huge revelation (to those critics of ME2 who say nothing really happens in the game - THIS IS HUGE).  I'm touching upon the enigmatic nature of the Reapers in questioning whether we can apply morality to them or not, very Lovecraftian in that sense.

The Reapers are so far removed from your standard video game cookie cutter bad guy, I appreciate them more and more as I play other games, read other books, etc.  I hope Bioware can stay strong and complete the trilogy in fashion worthy of such interesting "villains."

[darkshadow136]

From a ethical moral point of view I would say the Reapers are evil. But in their perspective I'm sure they feel they are doing us a favor by consuming us and incorporating us into their reproduction process, and in their view elevating us to a level of immortality, and in the end incorporating our knowledge to theirs absorbing our unique essence to evolve theirs.



In the end it reminds me a lot of the Borg from Star Trek with their quote "Resistance is futile, prepare to be assimilated" in their view the combination of organic and non-organic life was perfection, and sharing one mind was more efficient than having free will, and individual personalities. Even though in both fictional species they come to their conclusions logically it comes across cold and evil. For machines answers are black and white where with people that have emotions and individual choices there are grey areas in life. For any species the cold calculation of having their physical , and mental freedom taken away is a fear beyond fear. But for the reapers it is just a means to an end.



Much like when we go to the grocery store to get food we don't think about how the food is acquired if anything we just look at the price of it. We look at the animals we consume as a food resource not as a species on our level. Which is much like what I think the Reapers look as us as. They look at us a a cow or a pig or a field of corn except the big difference on how they absorb our uniqueness into themselves.

[DannyGloverfromPredator2_]

newcomplex wrote...

If what you said is true, I'd probably support the reapers.

mebbe im just kind of nutty.

That's what makes them so intriguing as adversaries.  They seem to have motives that when viewed from an external perspective, aren't easy to classify as "evil."  Humans on earth rose to the top of the heap by determining the fate of thousands of other species (hunting to extinction, farming to extinction, environmental damage, etc.) and we never once gave any of those species the opportunity for "ascension."

The Reapers participate in a more brutal and deliberate form of natural selection, but only with the most technologically advanced sentient races, and each race is evaluated for their potential to join the Reaper ranks.

Consider this: if the Reapers hadn't exterminated the Protheans, and other species before them, humanity might never have reached the level they have, because said other races would have colonized, taken over Earth, steered human evolution, etc.  In some respects, humanity may owe its very existence to the Reapers.

Judging from ME2, the Reapers evaluate a species' chance for ascension based primarily upon its genetic development.  The Cycle of Extinction actually provides a means for new species to have a chance to develop, because the Reapers chill out for 50,000 years at a time, allowing evolution to take its course.  If developed sapient species were allowed to continue existing, they might be the ones stomping out, guiding younger species before they ever had a chance to rise up. 

[DannyGloverfromPredator2_]

darkshadow136 wrote...
In the end it reminds me a lot of the Borg from Star Trek with their quote "Resistance is futile, prepare to be assimilated" in their view the combination of organic and non-organic life was perfection, and sharing one mind was more efficient than having free will, and individual personalities. Even though in both fictional species they come to their conclusions logically it comes across cold and evil. For machines answers are black and white where with people that have emotions and individual choices there are grey areas in life. For any species the cold calculation of having their physical , and mental freedom taken away is a fear beyond fear. But for the reapers it is just a means to an end.

I see a huge distinction from the Borg and the Reapers in that the Borg cruise around the galaxy actively assimilating sentient life.  The Reapers allow for 50,000 years of evolution to take place before they come along and evaluate... And they only "ascend" the most fit.

[OfTheFaintSmile]

Bioware will pull a "Darth Revan" and reveal Shepard as a reaper, lol

[Aviena]

Ugh, I hope not.

DannyGloverfromPredator2 wrote...

Judging from ME2, the Reapers evaluate a species' chance for ascension based primarily upon its genetic development.  The Cycle of Extinction actually provides a means for new species to have a chance to develop, because the Reapers chill out for 50,000 years at a time, allowing evolution to take its course.  If developed sapient species were allowed to continue existing, they might be the ones stomping out, guiding younger species before they ever had a chance to rise up. 

I think that very concept is part of what makes the Reapers so scary (and awesome, damnit) - the threat that humans could, one day, very well end up like the sentient machines Shepard is trying to destroy. I know I felt a chill down my spine when the "human Reaper" first came into view.

Consider: Shepard is working for Cerberus. It's acknowledged that Cerberus has done horrible things in the past, and it is hinted, what with Cerberus' structure of independent cells unaware of the actions of other cells, that TIM's organisation could still be torturing biotic children, experimenting on soldiers, killing kittens, etc etc. And yet, Shepard works with them anyway - because Cerberus are the only people willing to fight the Collectors.

I'm going to quote my boy Arl Eamon on this one: "Must we sacrifice all that is good about [humanity] in order to save it?"

[darkshadow136]

DannyGloverfromPredator2 wrote...

darkshadow136 wrote...
In the end it reminds me a lot of the Borg from Star Trek with their quote "Resistance is futile, prepare to be assimilated" in their view the combination of organic and non-organic life was perfection, and sharing one mind was more efficient than having free will, and individual personalities. Even though in both fictional species they come to their conclusions logically it comes across cold and evil. For machines answers are black and white where with people that have emotions and individual choices there are grey areas in life. For any species the cold calculation of having their physical , and mental freedom taken away is a fear beyond fear. But for the reapers it is just a means to an end.

I see a huge distinction from the Borg and the Reapers in that the Borg cruise around the galaxy actively assimilating sentient life.  The Reapers allow for 50,000 years of evolution to take place before they come along and evaluate... And they only "ascend" the most fit.

They are both definatly different but both Mythic species share many simalarities as to their motivations. The Reapers are more like patient farmers waiting for their annual yield to come in. lol

[DannyGloverfromPredator2_]

To all who have contributed so far - this is an awesome discussion and I am really enjoying reading everyone's input. I am on east coast time and have to work in the morning, so regrettably must turn in for the evening. I look forward to catching up on your input tomorrow.



darkshadow - I agree there are definitely similarities between the Borg and the Reapers. I'll be interested to see what more we learn of the Reapers as a whole culture in ME3, so we can further examine the parallels/differences.

[The Lord of Space]

I think the reapers are stuck in an infinite loop of retardation. With all their power and clearly superior technology why are they even bothering screwing around with one tiny galaxy? They could be out exploring the rest of the universe, looking for a way to move on to the next step of evolution. Instead they sit dormant for 50k years only to toy around with civilization then repeat ad infinitum.



The Geth have the right idea, they are trying to move forward. They are working to build their computational abilities to a point beyond that of even the clearly broken programming of the Reapers. The Geth will eventually ascend beyond the Reapers because their consciousness appears to be unrestricted. No being with unrestricted thought would possibly decide that stagnating to play with an essentially inconsequential piece of the universe is a wise course of action.

[DannyGloverfromPredator2_]

The Lord of Space wrote...

I think the reapers are stuck in an infinite loop of retardation. With all their power and clearly superior technology why are they even bothering screwing around with one tiny galaxy? They could be out exploring the rest of the universe, looking for a way to move on to the next step of evolution. Instead they sit dormant for 50k years only to toy around with civilization then repeat ad infinitum.

The Geth have the right idea, they are trying to move forward. They are working to build their computational abilities to a point beyond that of even the clearly broken programming of the Reapers. The Geth will eventually ascend beyond the Reapers because their consciousness appears to be unrestricted. No being with unrestricted thought would possibly decide that stagnating to play with an essentially inconsequential piece of the universe is a wise course of action.

The Reaper Response to your argument:

1) We don't know that the Reapers aren't active in other galaxies - no one has explored them.
2) The Geth are trying to move forward to an even more powerful collective consciousness, as evidenced by the Dyson Sphere conversation with Legion.  Although a Dyson Sphere would be restricted to a single star, unless they make several...  In any case, we don't know enough about the collective Reapers yet to really know what their cultural goals are. 
3) The ascending of worth races into Reaperdom may very well be the Reaper way of moving forward and incorporating new sentience into their collective.  Allowing 50,000 years of evolution to take place, then taking only the finest and most fit (sometimes rejecting everything) seems a pretty badass way of moving forward.  The geth are restricting themselves to just the Geth, the Reapers are looking for the cream of the crop from the entire galaxy.

Okay, really going to bed now.  See everyone tomorrow.

[RhythmlessNinja]

Honestly, I think the reapers have a god complex, the things they do is completely immoral. No matter how you look at it, they see all organism as nothing but resource. They take what they want, when they want, with complete disregard of how immoral their actions are. In their eyes everything is completely expendable, while in the galaxies eyes, they are galactic threat known throughout legends (shepard & his crew seem to be the only non idiots). 

Take how they completely reconstructed an entire race. Not only that, but they "assume control" over them so they are remodeled slaves without will. What I am thinking is simply that reapers are what geth could of been in the future. As in they were once built of course by some creator & later turned on them and over years upgrading their technology. And slowly becoming very narrow minded and eventually this god complex & then began the periodic genocides to increase their technology & numbers.

Modifié par RhythmlessNinja, 16 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[Shadowrun1177]

One of the things I was kind of thinking of is since the Reapers have repeated this mutiple times it might be interesting if they dicide to include Earth as a planet you can visit in ME3. It might be cool to find out that one of Earth's legends about a society being wiped out is tied to the Reapers doing their thing. The legend I'm refering to is Atlantis I mean the Reapers leave or at least try to leave almost no clue of the spieces/societies that came before. Perhaps the Atlantian society/spieces pre-dates the Protheans and maybe someone on earth finds evidence of it.

As for the Reapers I think its subjective if they are evil or not, we might seem them as evil cause of the destruction they are planning on bringing to the universe. Were they probably don't see themselves as evil, they are just doing what they have always done.

[The Lord of Space]

DannyGloverfromPredator2 wrote...
The Reaper Response to your argument:

1) We don't know that the Reapers aren't active in other galaxies - no one has explored them.
2) The Geth are trying to move forward to an even more powerful collective consciousness, as evidenced by the Dyson Sphere conversation with Legion.  Although a Dyson Sphere would be restricted to a single star, unless they make several...  In any case, we don't know enough about the collective Reapers yet to really know what their cultural goals are. 
3) The ascending of worth races into Reaperdom may very well be the Reaper way of moving forward and incorporating new sentience into their collective.  Allowing 50,000 years of evolution to take place, then taking only the finest and most fit (sometimes rejecting everything) seems a pretty badass way of moving forward.  The geth are restricting themselves to just the Geth, the Reapers are looking for the cream of the crop from the entire galaxy.

Okay, really going to bed now.  See everyone tomorrow.

1) True, but they certainly are hanging around outside our galaxy and my point is exactly for what purpose? It certainly isn't helping them move on to the next level and they clearly have a large amount waiting around a single galaxy so it raises the question of how many of these ships do they really need to have with their amazing tech.

2) Yes you are correct that we do not know their goals. I realized this and my conjecture was that whatever their goal was it certainly can't be to improve themselves like the Geth are as they are doing it in a completely ass backwards way. Waiting for evolution to happen naturally as a way to improve themselves? How exactly is that supposed to improve anything waiting for random particle interactions to lead to different traits in organics? They could simply set up a super lab and do all these experiments themselves, they have the technology to do it anyways. That leads me back to my point that something is wrong with their programming at a very deep level, they are stuck in this loop that is truly an inefficient means of accomplishing anything.

3) Kinda answered this in 2) but again I don't see how this could possibly improve them in any way. They are already beyond the need to wait for random events to occur for their abilities to improve. The Geth have the much better idea of directly researching and applying methods to improve themselves. The Reapers wait around 50k years to absorb worthless organic particles far below their complexity and certainly not any more complex than the worthless creatures they integrated all those times before.