116 réponses à ce sujet

[Kahirn]

antilles333 wrote...

I wasn't trying to start a war...just saying I wouldn't want my body sold to a terrorist group.

Between that or death? Sell away. Cerberus by virtue of bringing you back to life saves the universe in Mass Effect 2. None too shabby for a terrorist group.

[KainrycKarr]

antilles333 wrote...

I wasn't trying to start a war...just saying I wouldn't want my body sold to a terrorist group.

Was directed at both

[HAGA NAGA]

antilles333 wrote...

Kahirn wrote...

 I would have literally bear hugged Tali and viciously delivered brutal headbutt after brutal headbutt till her mask shattered and she died from severe infection.

What was the point of that? If you're so bugged out about how Alenko/WIlliams are pissed off with you didn't you realize Tali was really the only person who thought about Shepard for those two years? Or how Tali and Garrus are both dedicated to you?

Sheesh.

yeah. you're full of it OP. Tali was totally cool to you. if you're really that irritated with your reception amung old ME1 allies i would've thought you'd caught how supportive Tali was of you. how can you justify? you must have already been a Tali hater.

Tali and Garrus are Sheps buddies for life and that is everpresent in ME2. where do you get off?

[TheTrac3r]

Kahirn wrote...

antilles333 wrote...

I wasn't trying to start a war...just saying I wouldn't want my body sold to a terrorist group.

Between that or death? Sell away. Cerberus by virtue of bringing you back to life saves the universe in Mass Effect 2. None too shabby for a terrorist group.

It wasn't quite like that.  During the (bugged?) conversation with Liara, she admits that agents of the shadow broker got to your body before anyone else could (this is an important fact to all the people saying that "all my buddies from ME1 abandoned me").  The Shadow Broker had you and was going to GIVE you to the Collectors.  Cerberus (or Liara) knew this.  So, Liara rescued you AND got a close friend killed while doing it.  Then, Cerberus made her an offer she couldn't refuse, because of her love for you (this is also something for the "my ME1 love interest was a dick to me" people to think about).

Modifié par TheTrac3r, 16 février 2010 - 07:07 .

[Osena109]

Kahirn wrote...

Its just stupid hard to given the story. You, Shepard get sucked out into space while pushing Joker into a escape pod and fall thousands of miles into a planet and die. What happens next? The alliance doesn't give a **** and leaves you for dead. The council doesn't give a **** and leaves you for dead. Your own friends and companions that you bled for as you were saving the god damn universe don't give a **** and leave you for dead. WHAT THE ****?

So apparently the only people who give the slightest hint of a damn about you is some pro-human secret organization even though you blew up a few of their bases in Mass Effect one. The only people who care about you are your old enemies. Fantastic.

I simply love how so many of your companions will not only start out the conversation mad at YOU, Shepard, the one who ****ing died but they ALSO give you **** for being with Cerberus. Seriously? You see me for the first time in 2 years after you left me for ****ing dead and you're gonna give me sass? Ashley Williams/Kaidan Alenko would have been shot in the face mere moments after opening his/her mouth and spewing his/her garbage. I would have literally bear hugged Tali and viciously delivered brutal headbutt after brutal headbutt till her mask shattered and she died from severe infection.

There is almost no saving grace to either of their initial encounters. Thank god for Garrus, he's the only one from the original Mass Effect crew I've met so far that hasn't made me want to become violent. I'm kind of curious as to why they didn't put in a "You left me for dead and Cerberus is the only reason I'm standing here breathing right now you ungrateful worthless wretch!" option whenever ANY of the old Mass Effect crew even think of questioning your, Shepard's, designs/motives.

**** you got Issues   what did tali do beside say am glade your back tali is a ride or day  chick

Modifié par Osena109, 16 février 2010 - 07:04 .

[notphrog]

Serogon wrote...

notphrog wrote...

Why would they leave you for dead? Hmmm...maybe becaues until Cerberus brought you back, dead meant dead. It was so prohibitively expensive that nobody but Cerberus could even attempt it. It was a fool's errand and an absurdly massive cred sink, but TIM did it.

And none of this has anything to do with playing paragon! Damn. I feel for the troll!

It wasn't even that it was prohibitively expensive, it was literally seen as impossible. The Lazarus Project was completely new stuff, it wasn't just putting effort into a partially or mostly known thing.

That too. Sorry I forgot to mention it.

[GodWood]

OP needs to calm down.
Tali: Shepard, is that you?
OP: ****in ***** I was dead and you **** ****** I hate all of you ****** bucket ***** *mindless babbling*
Tali:  -sigh-

[TheTrac3r]

GodWood wrote...

OP needs to calm down.
Tali: Shepard, is that you?
OP: ****in ***** I was dead and you **** ****** I hate all of you ****** bucket ***** *mindless babbling*
Tali:  -sigh-

Renegade +20.

[Kahirn]

GodWood wrote...

OP needs to calm down.
Tali: Shepard, is that you?
OP: ****in ***** I was dead and you **** ****** I hate all of you ****** bucket ***** *mindless babbling*
Tali:  -sigh-

Lol, that was pretty funny. I'm not upset with Tali for being shocked I'm alive. I'm upset with her and the rest of the old crew really for giving me crap because I'm working for the people that brought me back to life. It irks me to no end that you can't simply state as much with one of the dialogue options.

Regardless of all of Cerberus' past sins bringing you back to life absolves them because ultimately Shepard saves the universe. Again.

[DuffyMJ]

OP have you ever thought about that since its you against everyone else including your own squad that maybe... the problem is YOU?

[TheTrac3r]

DuffyMJ wrote...

OP have you ever thought about that since its you against everyone else including your own squad that maybe... the problem is YOU?

To be honest, I think everyone is being really hard on Cerberus (ie: YOU, working for them).  But that's good story.  Let me explain:

Cerberus is what it is.  It's not a nice group, or even a "human" group (considering their lack of "humanity" in the things they've done).  But, the game has an underlying message - sometimes, groups/governments/the masses become complacent.  Decadent.  They'd rather close their eyes, forget their problems, hold ABSOLUTELY to their ideals.  Sometimes, you need to turn to darker elements, for the greater good.

Your squad helps deliver one side of that message.  Ashley/Kaidan, Tali, Garrus, give you **** when they discover you're with Cerberus.  As they should.  And sometimes, Cerberus proves them right (as you find out what they did to Jack, etc).  But sometimes, Cerberus proves them wrong.  Your new crew is not racist.  They're not evil, or monsters.  They're actually a good crew, devoted to you, focussed on the mission, accepting of people.  I mean your CREW.  The chef, the doc, the man who worries about his family on New Canton.

In the end, it's up to you to draw a line in the sand and decide how much to forgive Cerberus.  Your old team can't forgive them.  Your new team is with them.  In the end, you have to choose.  That choice is what you do with the station, after you save humanity.  IE: You accept Cerberus can do SOME good, but you deny them the reaper machine.

Modifié par TheTrac3r, 16 février 2010 - 07:37 .

[DuffyMJ]

TheTrac3r wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

OP have you ever thought about that since its you against everyone else including your own squad that maybe... the problem is YOU?

To be honest, I think everyone is being really hard on Cerberus (ie: YOU, working for them).  But that's good story.  Let me explain:

Cerberus is what it is.  It's not a nice group, or even a "human" group (considering their lack of "humanity" in the things they've done).  But, the game has an underlying message - sometimes, groups/governments/the masses become complacent.  Decadent.  They'd rather close their eyes, forget their problems, hold ABSOLUTELY to their ideals.  Sometimes, you need to turn to darker elements, for the greater good.

Your squad helps deliver one side of that message.  Ashley/Kaidan, Tali, Garrus, give you **** when they discover you're with Cerberus.  As they should.  And sometimes, Cerberus proves them right (as you find out what they did to Jack, etc).  But sometimes, Cerberus proves them wrong.  Your new crew is not racist.  They're not evil, or monsters.  They're actually a good crew, devoted to you, focussed on the mission, accepting of people.  I mean your CREW.  The chef, the doc, the man who worries about his family on New Canton.

In the end, it's up to you to draw a line in the sand and decide how much to forgive Cerberus.  Your old team can't forgive them.  Your new team is with them.  In the end, you have to choose.  That choice is what you do with the station, after you save humanity.  IE: You accept Cerberus can do SOME good, but you deny them the reaper machine.

The problem with Cerberus is that secretive societies/organizations are by their very nature deceitful and detrimental.  There's lots of conspiracy theories about evil secret organizations out there, but isn't it telling that there are no good secret organizations out there?  It's basically an oxymoron.

The Reapers are a secret evil lurking behind galactic politics, but Cerberus engaging in a secret "war" with them is no different than the CIA engaging in wars with the KGB or viet cong or whoever in notoriously violent, demoralizing, and inhumane conflicts.

The appeal of Cerberus to people in Cerberus and to players of the game most likely is the romanticism of the organization, but it's all an illusion.

[SuperVaderMan]

This is why Wrex is a breath of fresh air. He puts down everything he's doing to come greet his old friend. Granted, he probably didn't know about Shepard's affiliation with Cerberus, but even if he did he'd probably brush it off knowing that Shep would have his reasons.



(And sure, Liara greets Shep but... well that's not Liara. That's her actress trying to be badass and failing miserably)

[TheTrac3r]

DuffyMJ wrote...

The problem with Cerberus is that secretive societies/organizations are by their very nature deceitful and detrimental.  There's lots of conspiracy theories about evil secret organizations out there, but isn't it telling that there are no good secret organizations out there?  It's basically an oxymoron.

The Reapers are a secret evil lurking behind galactic politics, but Cerberus engaging in a secret "war" with them is no different than the CIA engaging in wars with the KGB or viet cong or whoever in notoriously violent, demoralizing, and inhumane conflicts.

The appeal of Cerberus to people in Cerberus and to players of the game most likely is the romanticism of the organization, but it's all an illusion.

I don't know if I can agree with a lot of what you said.  Yes, secret organizations can't be trusted.  Personally, I blew the station to hell at the end - the Illusive Man clearly wanted it from the start (convenient 'radiation pulse' idea, wasn't it?).  So, I guess I agree with you there.  As for the second paragraph?  I can't agree at all.

First, the war isn't secret.  The war was overt, they blew the *&)(& out of the Citadel 2 years ago.  The council (whom I saved) turned their back.  I reminded them about the war, they ignored me.  I told the quarians about the war.  Hell, I even told random ME1 character encounters on the side quests I was going after the collectors.  The only person I didn't tell was the reporter I punched, and believe me, I would have told her if there an option for it.

Also, I don't think the reapers are 'lurking behind galactic politics'.  Like, the council members aren't reapers in disguise (creating a KGB vs CIA/Council VS Cerberus storyline, as you said).  They're out in deep space.  Sovereign tried to bring them back, and failed.  So, they turned to their pets the collectors who were still *IN* the galaxy and could go after us while they slowly float back to finish us themselves.

So, I guess, I really don't see the game as some clandestine war between secret spy groups.  I see it as a very real war only Cerberus has the balls the fight (right now).

Also:
Cerberus knows it needs help too.  In every mission report, they add comments like
-"Quarian war plans concerning, we may need them at full strength for the big war."  
-"Geth reunification interesting.  we could use an anti-reaper, super geth army for the big war"
-"Cure for genophage interesting.  could use army of cured krogans in the big war"

So, I don't see them as the MOST evil they could be.  More like diet coke evil.

[DuffyMJ]

TheTrac3r wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

The problem with Cerberus is that secretive societies/organizations are by their very nature deceitful and detrimental.  There's lots of conspiracy theories about evil secret organizations out there, but isn't it telling that there are no good secret organizations out there?  It's basically an oxymoron.

The Reapers are a secret evil lurking behind galactic politics, but Cerberus engaging in a secret "war" with them is no different than the CIA engaging in wars with the KGB or viet cong or whoever in notoriously violent, demoralizing, and inhumane conflicts.

The appeal of Cerberus to people in Cerberus and to players of the game most likely is the romanticism of the organization, but it's all an illusion.

I don't know if I can agree with a lot of what you said.  Yes, secret organizations can't be trusted.  Personally, I blew the station to hell at the end - the Illusive Man clearly wanted it from the start (convenient 'radiation pulse' idea, wasn't it?).  So, I guess I agree with you there.  As for the second paragraph?  I can't agree at all.

First, the war isn't secret.  The war was overt, they blew the *&)(& out of the Citadel 2 years ago.  The council (whom I saved) turned their back.  I reminded them about the war, they ignored me.  I told the quarians about the war.  Hell, I even told random ME1 character encounters on the side quests I was going after the collectors.  The only person I didn't tell was the reporter I punched, and believe me, I would have told her if there an option for it.

Also, I don't think the reapers are 'lurking behind galactic politics'.  Like, the council members aren't reapers in disguise (creating a KGB vs CIA/Council VS Cerberus storyline, as you said).  They're out in deep space.  Sovereign tried to bring them back, and failed.  So, they turned to their pets the collectors who were still *IN* the galaxy and could go after us while they slowly float back to finish us themselves.

So, I guess, I really don't see the game as some clandestine war between secret spy groups.  I see it as a very real war only Cerberus has the balls the fight (right now).

Also:
Cerberus knows it needs help too.  In every mission report, they add comments like
-"Quarian war plans concerning, we may need them at full strength for the big war."  
-"Geth reunification interesting.  we could use an anti-reaper, super geth army for the big war"
-"Cure for genophage interesting.  could use army of cured krogans in the big war"

So, I don't see them as the MOST evil they could be.  More like diet coke evil.

But that's the thing, there is no "them" it is ALL the illusive man, he never keeps more than a dozen cells so he can manage them.  I don't care if it's Caesar or Richard the Lionhearted or Marcus Aurillius or Abraham Lincoln or whoever, no one person can be allowed to have that much concentration of authority and capability, even if their intentions are good. 

The whole point of choosing to destroy the base was more or less an echoing of the sentiment that "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" where shepard said "i won't let fear compromise who i am".  Illusive Man tries to control Shepard by hammering home the ominousness of the Reapers and the "whatever it takes to win" mentality and panic... a panic which the illusive man obviously doesn't himself feel because he is privy to a great deal of information about them and the collectors that Shepard is not.  Frankly, I don't think the illusive man is more than mildly concerned about the Reaper threat, they are simply to him what Spartacus was to the Roman senator Gracchus: a convenient fear to capitalize on as a catalyst to dictatorship.  Dictators were literally people appointed as one-year-only absolutists during times of extraordinary crisis, and that's the role the illusive man more or less assumes in the mass effect universe.  Trouble is, they always turn out worse than the bogeyman they use to gain power.

The Reapers are certainly a great threat, but there is really no reason to believe Cerberus will be superior to the Alliance in waging war against them when they arrive from Dark Space. 

I just don't get this idea that because they recognize the Reaper threat and the council doesn't, that means they're the best hope.  They're not.  The best hope is still the council, the alliance, the quarians, the geth etc...  They just don't know it yet.  Shepard's wealth of data gathered about the Reapers that he can now show to the council really marginalizes Cerberus' importance.  Cerberus, in my opinion, is also responsible for the council not being all about fighting the reapers.  What the hell was Illusive Man doing to make the council take the threat seriously?  Billions of credits spent building shepard could have been spent lobbying the council or spreading the word to the general public.

[RiouHotaru]

Massadonious1 wrote...

True Paragons don't give up.

QFT.  Someone's sig around here sums it up perfectly.  "Anything worth doing right is never done easy."

Ciry wrote...

But Kaidan/Ash... Damn, that conversation must've been the most
frustrating in the whole game. Basically Shep just shoved his foot deep
into his mouth and just stood there while being accused of treason.
That convo is just badly written.

 Actually, you have the option to try and tell them "I was dead." and "I don't work for Cerberus you ass!"  But it seems the moment the word 'Cerberus' is uttered they zone out EVERYTHING else you have to say.

[TheTrac3r]

DuffyMJ wrote...

But that's the thing, there is no "them" it is ALL the illusive man, he never keeps more than a dozen cells so he can manage them.  I don't care if it's Caesar or Richard the Lionhearted or Marcus Aurillius or Abraham Lincoln or whoever, no one person can be allowed to have that much concentration of authority and capability, even if their intentions are good. 

The whole point of choosing to destroy the base was more or less an echoing of the sentiment that "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" where shepard said "i won't let fear compromise who i am".  Illusive Man tries to control Shepard by hammering home the ominousness of the Reapers and the "whatever it takes to win" mentality and panic... a panic which the illusive man obviously doesn't himself feel because he is privy to a great deal of information about them and the collectors that Shepard is not.  Frankly, I don't think the illusive man is more than mildly concerned about the Reaper threat, they are simply to him what Spartacus was to the Roman senator Gracchus: a convenient fear to capitalize on as a catalyst to dictatorship.  Dictators were literally people appointed as one-year-only absolutists during times of extraordinary crisis, and that's the role the illusive man more or less assumes in the mass effect universe.  Trouble is, they always turn out worse than the bogeyman they use to gain power.

The Reapers are certainly a great threat, but there is really no reason to believe Cerberus will be superior to the Alliance in waging war against them when they arrive from Dark Space. 

I just don't get this idea that because they recognize the Reaper threat and the council doesn't, that means they're the best hope.  They're not.  The best hope is still the council, the alliance, the quarians, the geth etc...  They just don't know it yet.  Shepard's wealth of data gathered about the Reapers that he can now show to the council really marginalizes Cerberus' importance.  Cerberus, in my opinion, is also responsible for the council not being all about fighting the reapers.  What the hell was Illusive Man doing to make the council take the threat seriously?  Billions of credits spent building shepard could have been spent lobbying the council or spreading the word to the general public.

I actually will agree with nearly everything you've said above.  Except for one or two things.  You're right about your comparisons and sentiments.  But there's one or two things I wanna point out to get people's opinions on (if anyone else is reading this thread lol).

First, I really don't think you can blame Cerberus for the council not taking actions.  Like, I'm sorry, you just can't.  Half of the game dialogue from Garrus, other characters is about how people KNOW about the threat but PREFER to not act on it.  No amount of prodding will work on that.

Second, if you talk to EDI once she is set free, she informs you that, while Cerberus is only like, 3 main projects and 150 people (seriously.  only 150 or something like that), the organization is funded by tons of people from Earth.

Also, Cerberus and the Alliance are allies in secret.  Yep.  Seriously.  Ask Edi.  Cerberus is funded and supported by "members of the Alliance military-industrial complex".  Also, and most shockingly,  Cerberus was the ones who convinced the Alliance to DEVELOP the original Normandy.  They prodded and likely financially assisted the Alliance in learning about Turian ship design, so that the Alliance could build the original.

So...I guess, if the original Normandy was a pet project between your former Commanders in the Alliance, and Cerberus... you have always worked for Cerberus.  And likely always will.

Interesting to think about.

Modifié par TheTrac3r, 16 février 2010 - 08:42 .

[Mossa_missa]

Kahirn wrote...

I'm only like 6 hours into the game

You never maybee tought that they wuld give you the information later in the game? Maybee complain after you finnished it instead as soon you started to play. Or do you whant the whole game story told by somone befor you actuly play the game?

[Samurro]

Kahirn wrote...

Its just stupid hard to given the story. You, Shepard get sucked out into space while pushing Joker into a escape pod and fall thousands of miles into a planet and die. What happens next? The alliance doesn't give a **** and leaves you for dead. The council doesn't give a **** and leaves you for dead. Your own friends and companions that you bled for as you were saving the god damn universe don't give a **** and leave you for dead. WHAT THE ****?

FAIL!
Do you know what Liara did for you? No? And what should the others do, everybody thought you were DEAD, not every person in the ME universe has as much power and financial background as TIM to recontruct dead people.

So it's just a matter of players choice if he wants to be angry because nobody of his old crew cared for him, which is absoluetly incorrect. Or if you are playing a Shephard who believes that nobody could really bring him back as TIM did.

[stillnotking]

The fact that you were, in fact, dead is actually a pretty good excuse for leaving you for dead.

[TheTrac3r]

stillnotking wrote...

The fact that you were, in fact, dead is actually a pretty good excuse for leaving you for dead.

That one made me chuckle.

Especially, actually...in reality, even when you were dead, people didn't give you up for dead.  Not Liara.  Hell, not even your enemies gave you up for dead.  Not the Reapers, not even Cerberus.  They missed you so much, they brought you back for the lulz.

Irony x 2: The Collectors also wanted to bring you back.  Just, as a delicious protein and gene insertion for their big evil human metal skeleton thingy instead of a more portable human unit.

With enemies like that, who needs friends?

Modifié par TheTrac3r, 16 février 2010 - 09:51 .

[SL22]

Yeah your crew mates would save you after Joker telling them that he saw you get spaced and then fall towards a planet because we all know a human can survive that. Cerberus got to your body first so your team looking for you would have been fruitless anway, Cerberus was also the only group with the expendable funds to use on bringing you back.

Seriously though OP, it sounds like you have issues.

[BeyondFX]

SL22 wrote...

Yeah your crew mates would save you after Joker telling them that he saw you get spaced and then fall towards a planet because we all know a human can survive that. Cerberus got to your body first so your team looking for you would have been fruitless anway, Cerberus was also the only group with the expendable funds to use on bringing you back.

Seriously though OP, it sounds like you have issues.

Actually no, cerberus didnt get your body first. The shadow broker did and if not for Liara, Shepard would have been handed over to the collectors. She handed him/her over to cerberus because they told her they could bring him/her back.

[mundus66]

Well technically "you're already dead" (HnK reference^^) so obviously alliance or the council cant do anything about it and in case you didn't know, it was actually Liara that gave your body to Cerberus. So at least someone cares for you.

[Madecologist]

I am confused as to what Tali did. What I remember (from an beginning I did like 20 times). Tali is happy to see you, tells her men to back off when they all go Anti-Cerberus, does explain she too does not trust Cerberus but trusts you. Then tries to work with you, and even shows an interest to join you after she finishes her secret Geth Mission.

You want to head butt her to death, what did you want.... a BJ? or something.

The rest makes sense, they do treat you ****** poor.

As for being left for dead is a misnomer. Shepard was dead, dead as can be. Like Jacob said. The Lazarus Project is not something that one drives to. Only Cerberus had it, and they only had it for one person only. As in even if Anderson got you body, he would have buried it. No seriously, do you even explore and listen to the audio files in the intro or talk to Miranda and Jacob. You were a corpse in a box when Cerberus got you. The Lazarus project was created for the sole purpose to bring you back. Using Technology no one else really has. It even costed TIM like 2 or 4 Billion credits to fund the project. Again, you were not left for dead. You were dead. Yes, Shepard was reserected (via hi-tech). You think with a name like Lazarus Project it would be obvious...

I think someone has anger management issues