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[DuffyMJ]

TheTrac3r wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

But that's the thing, there is no "them" it is ALL the illusive man, he never keeps more than a dozen cells so he can manage them.  I don't care if it's Caesar or Richard the Lionhearted or Marcus Aurillius or Abraham Lincoln or whoever, no one person can be allowed to have that much concentration of authority and capability, even if their intentions are good. 

The whole point of choosing to destroy the base was more or less an echoing of the sentiment that "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" where shepard said "i won't let fear compromise who i am".  Illusive Man tries to control Shepard by hammering home the ominousness of the Reapers and the "whatever it takes to win" mentality and panic... a panic which the illusive man obviously doesn't himself feel because he is privy to a great deal of information about them and the collectors that Shepard is not.  Frankly, I don't think the illusive man is more than mildly concerned about the Reaper threat, they are simply to him what Spartacus was to the Roman senator Gracchus: a convenient fear to capitalize on as a catalyst to dictatorship.  Dictators were literally people appointed as one-year-only absolutists during times of extraordinary crisis, and that's the role the illusive man more or less assumes in the mass effect universe.  Trouble is, they always turn out worse than the bogeyman they use to gain power.

The Reapers are certainly a great threat, but there is really no reason to believe Cerberus will be superior to the Alliance in waging war against them when they arrive from Dark Space. 

I just don't get this idea that because they recognize the Reaper threat and the council doesn't, that means they're the best hope.  They're not.  The best hope is still the council, the alliance, the quarians, the geth etc...  They just don't know it yet.  Shepard's wealth of data gathered about the Reapers that he can now show to the council really marginalizes Cerberus' importance.  Cerberus, in my opinion, is also responsible for the council not being all about fighting the reapers.  What the hell was Illusive Man doing to make the council take the threat seriously?  Billions of credits spent building shepard could have been spent lobbying the council or spreading the word to the general public.

I actually will agree with nearly everything you've said above.  Except for one or two things.  You're right about your comparisons and sentiments.  But there's one or two things I wanna point out to get people's opinions on (if anyone else is reading this thread lol).

First, I really don't think you can blame Cerberus for the council not taking actions.  Like, I'm sorry, you just can't.  Half of the game dialogue from Garrus, other characters is about how people KNOW about the threat but PREFER to not act on it.  No amount of prodding will work on that.

Second, if you talk to EDI once she is set free, she informs you that, while Cerberus is only like, 3 main projects and 150 people (seriously.  only 150 or something like that), the organization is funded by tons of people from Earth.

Also, Cerberus and the Alliance are allies in secret.  Yep.  Seriously.  Ask Edi.  Cerberus is funded and supported by "members of the Alliance military-industrial complex".  Also, and most shockingly,  Cerberus was the ones who convinced the Alliance to DEVELOP the original Normandy.  They prodded and likely financially assisted the Alliance in learning about Turian ship design, so that the Alliance could build the original.

So...I guess, if the original Normandy was a pet project between your former Commanders in the Alliance, and Cerberus... you have always worked for Cerberus.  And likely always will.

Interesting to think about.

That is interesting...  And you're right that they are puppet masters for the alliance as much as they are for their own organization.

The outcome of the game no matter how you play though seems to be Shepard going rogue.  It reminds me of the IRA where splinter groups would subsequently splinter off their own group from the splinter groups, lol.

[Computron2000]

Paragon from what i played of ME1 and ME2 means you are support justice, you realize that people have their own opinions and accept them, you have compassion. If doesn't mean you have no emotions though as the paragon interrupt for Lia'Vael showed



Most people who actually play the game with themselves as the base are unlikely to really be Paragon all the way. How many people actually took the "I would be honored" after the council told you they would reinstate you after basically laughing you and your evidence out of the room? (loved the quote hand signs the turian used when he mentioned the reapers )



Renegade from what i gather means me first always, give me immediate results now, i don't like means i bash you/whatever up probably with a Cain round.



Fortunately BW seems to understand that no one is one sided so you can have points in both. Basically it models your behavior as Shepard is a reflection of you (if you put yourself into the role of Shepard).

[Computron2000]

TheTrac3r wrote...
Also, Cerberus and the Alliance are allies in secret.  Yep.  Seriously.  Ask Edi.  Cerberus is funded and supported by "members of the Alliance military-industrial complex".  Also, and most shockingly,  Cerberus was the ones who convinced the Alliance to DEVELOP the original Normandy.  They prodded and likely financially assisted the Alliance in learning about Turian ship design, so that the Alliance could build the original.
Interesting to think about.

I always though she meant the companies that supplied the Alliance, much like how Lookheed is a military supplier.

[TheTrac3r]

Computron2000 wrote...

TheTrac3r wrote...
Also, Cerberus and the Alliance are allies in secret.  Yep.  Seriously.  Ask Edi.  Cerberus is funded and supported by "members of the Alliance military-industrial complex".  Also, and most shockingly,  Cerberus was the ones who convinced the Alliance to DEVELOP the original Normandy.  They prodded and likely financially assisted the Alliance in learning about Turian ship design, so that the Alliance could build the original.
Interesting to think about.

I always though she meant the companies that supplied the Alliance, much like how Lookheed is a military supplier.

Yes, I mean, they have a symbiotic relationship in a way similar to your comparison, but to me, it means that things go beyond just money and supplies.  Cerberus isn't an industrial group.  They have money, power, and loose morals for research.  

To me, EDI meant that the Illusive Man used political clout and influence to push the Alliance military to become more aggressive in improving the capabilities of human ships - something they may not have done (or become complacent to) without his obsession with keeping humanity strong.

[Nizzemancer]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Kahirn wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

What's this got to do with being a Paragon or not?

Everything and everyone that you cared about and worked hard to protect in Mass Effect 1 fails you in the beginning of Mass Effect 2. When you start a game not liking the Human Alliance, The Council and every member of your old crew you can't really say that helps the Paragon route.

What do you want him to do, put on black eyeliner and run up crying to his quarters to write in his diary about how only MCR understands his pain?

Spot on...This thread needs less QQ and more PewPew.

1. When someone dies people tend to think that there's little left to do but go on with your life, the fact that TIM was obsessive about bringing Shepard back doesn't change the fact that death is impossible to reverse unless you have a miracle-cure alá "Cerberus plot device resurrectionmachine M/01".

2. As far as Ashley/Kaidan first reaction goes it is kinda natural to assume you didn't die and have just been hiding and not said a word even to your once close friends for 2 years and all of a sudden is working for cerberus, If I found out that a close friend of mine didn't die and had just been hiding for two years while presumably working for al qaida without even contacting me once I'd be pretty po'd myself.

3. They have found new purpose, and while you can help some of them complete it in ME2 (Garrus and Tali) others have made more long-term commitments that you really can't expect them to just walk away from when you suddenly appear after 2 years of being dead (but in their eyes probably hiding and working with terrorists).

So stop QQ about the NPC's having moved on, wtf do you expect?

[Kahirn]

Nizzemancer wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

Kahirn wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

What's this got to do with being a Paragon or not?

Everything and everyone that you cared about and worked hard to protect in Mass Effect 1 fails you in the beginning of Mass Effect 2. When you start a game not liking the Human Alliance, The Council and every member of your old crew you can't really say that helps the Paragon route.

What do you want him to do, put on black eyeliner and run up crying to his quarters to write in his diary about how only MCR understands his pain?

Spot on...This thread needs less QQ and more PewPew.

1. When someone dies people tend to think that there's little left to do but go on with your life, the fact that TIM was obsessive about bringing Shepard back doesn't change the fact that death is impossible to reverse unless you have a miracle-cure alá "Cerberus plot device resurrectionmachine M/01".

2. As far as Ashley/Kaidan first reaction goes it is kinda natural to assume you didn't die and have just been hiding and not said a word even to your once close friends for 2 years and all of a sudden is working for cerberus, If I found out that a close friend of mine didn't die and had just been hiding for two years while presumably working for al qaida without even contacting me once I'd be pretty po'd myself.

3. They have found new purpose, and while you can help some of them complete it in ME2 (Garrus and Tali) others have made more long-term commitments that you really can't expect them to just walk away from when you suddenly appear after 2 years of being dead (but in their eyes probably hiding and working with terrorists).

So stop QQ about the NPC's having moved on, wtf do you expect?

I guess I'm just spoiled because I actually have good friends irl. You can be damn sure that if after saving all of my friends' lives many times over in a mission to save the world and succeeding. If I later died. That when we met again 2 years later they would not question me if they heard that I worked for the devil, terrorists or some new baby eating cult. They know my character, they know the type of man that I am. For whatever it is there is a reason and they would be too overjoyed to see me alive to care.

Would questions be asked later as to why I'm in an evil organization? sure... but that would be after the initial "Hey man! *hug*/*cry* I thought you were dead?" "What happened? How can you be alive?" "We all missed you" "etc...". That some of your companions near immediately judge you moments after you first meet says everything that needs to be said about that friendship. They are trash and not worthy of your trust.

[Naltair]

Kahirn wrote...
I guess I'm just spoiled because I actually have good friends irl. You can be damn sure that if after saving all of my friends' lives many times over in a mission to save the world and succeeding. If I later died. That when we met again 2 years later they would not question me if they heard that I worked for the devil, terrorists or some new baby eating cult. They know my character, they know the type of man that I am. For whatever it is there is a reason and they would be too overjoyed to see me alive to care.

Would questions be asked later as to why I'm in an evil organization? sure... but that would be after the initial "Hey man! *hug*/*cry* I thought you were dead?" "What happened? How can you be alive?" "We all missed you" "etc...". That some of your companions near immediately judge you moments after you first meet says everything that needs to be said about that friendship. They are trash and not worthy of your trust.

Maybe so I still think some of your claims are unreasonable.

But as to the original topic title, I still don't see how this makes it hard to be Paragon in the game.  I think you made the title in haste when your issue is with the response of the ME1 cast and no so much how you can play the game.

Modifié par Naltair, 17 février 2010 - 12:25 .

[DaeJi]

I loved playing as a Paragon in Mass Effect 2. Shepard's beliefs were really challenged in this game, and she had to face some tough realities. The galaxy crapping on her didn't help. Being a Paragon meant having to hold the high ideals when everything made it so tempting to just go darker and grittier. Getting to tell Cerberus to suck it while taking away their ship, crew, and one of their best officers made it so worth it.

[ToshiStation38]

Not that I feel quite as strongly as the OP, I see where you're coming from. I was pretty pissed off at the Alliance, the Council, and Kaidan. Not really Tali, though. I wasn't really that attached to the first crew anyways.

[Kahirn]

DaeJi wrote...

I loved playing as a Paragon in Mass Effect 2. Shepard's beliefs were really challenged in this game, and she had to face some tough realities. The galaxy crapping on her didn't help. Being a Paragon meant having to hold the high ideals when everything made it so tempting to just go darker and grittier. Getting to tell Cerberus to suck it while taking away their ship, crew, and one of their best officers made it so worth it.

That was pretty much my point with the title. In Mass Effect 1 it was really easy to be a Paragon. You just did the right thing and gave people the benefit of the doubt.

In Mass Effect 2 every effort seems to be made to sort of push you into being a Renegade. Its a lot tougher to be the nice guy.

[Naltair]

Kahirn wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I loved playing as a Paragon in Mass Effect 2. Shepard's beliefs were really challenged in this game, and she had to face some tough realities. The galaxy crapping on her didn't help. Being a Paragon meant having to hold the high ideals when everything made it so tempting to just go darker and grittier. Getting to tell Cerberus to suck it while taking away their ship, crew, and one of their best officers made it so worth it.

That was pretty much my point with the title. In Mass Effect 1 it was really easy to be a Paragon. You just did the right thing and gave people the benefit of the doubt.

In Mass Effect 2 every effort seems to be made to sort of push you into being a Renegade. Its a lot tougher to be the nice guy.

Because the galaxy and especially the Terminus systems is a corrupt, bad, nasty place.

To be the beacon of light and justice in that kind of place should be a challenge.

But if you are true your guns, you can be very very Paragon.

[binaryemperor]

marshalleck wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

What's this got to do with being a Paragon or not?

Apparently going into a rage and killing people is the Paragon path or something.

Ever heard of Paladin/Barbarian? I made one. It was fun. At least in concept. In actuality it was totally worthless. I had to change my alignment to level one and the other, it was hard.

Modifié par binaryemperor, 17 février 2010 - 12:38 .

[Kahirn]

ToshiStation38 wrote...

Not that I feel quite as strongly as the OP, I see where you're coming from. I was pretty pissed off at the Alliance, the Council, and Kaidan. Not really Tali, though. I wasn't really that attached to the first crew anyways.

Eh, 90% of the reason I'm mad with Tali is that she was my favorite character in Mass Effect 1. I really wanted more than what I got from the first two encounters with her. Its nice to read about how she wishes you were there to see the prothean ruins from a terminal but I just didn't find it to be enough to counter the whole why are you in cerberus blah blah blah nonsense.

[Pauravi]

You have anger issues.

Of course they left you for dead, were were in a ship when it exploded, you drifted out into space while losing your air, burnt up in the atmosphere, and fell onto a frozen planet. The only reason anyone bothered to get your mangled, unrecognizable corpse was because the Collectors wanted to buy it, and it was only after the Shadow Broker picked you up that Liara found out that Cerberus could save you.

Cerberus is quite clear that your resurrection is nothing short of a medical miracle, and completely unprecedented even with all the advanced medical technology. Why would your companions even think it would be possible to save you? You're being completely unreasonable.

[Naltair]

Kahirn wrote...

ToshiStation38 wrote...

Not that I feel quite as strongly as the OP, I see where you're coming from. I was pretty pissed off at the Alliance, the Council, and Kaidan. Not really Tali, though. I wasn't really that attached to the first crew anyways.

Eh, 90% of the reason I'm mad with Tali is that she was my favorite character in Mass Effect 1. I really wanted more than what I got from the first two encounters with her. Its nice to read about how she wishes you were there to see the prothean ruins from a terminal but I just didn't find it to be enough to counter the whole why are you in cerberus blah blah blah nonsense.

Tali seemed quite happy to see you back, I am not sure what else you wanted.

A hug.

For her to bust out her Shepard doll that she sleeps with every night?  I think you have unrealistic expectations they were glad to have you back but the galaxy moved on, they moved on.  It happens, but she and Garrus join you once more they want to help and they are behind you... well unless you lose Tali's trust later on in the game.

[Pauravi]

DaeJi wrote...

I loved playing as a Paragon in Mass Effect 2. Shepard's beliefs were really challenged in this game, and she had to face some tough realities. The galaxy crapping on her didn't help. Being a Paragon meant having to hold the high ideals when everything made it so tempting to just go darker and grittier. Getting to tell Cerberus to suck it while taking away their ship, crew, and one of their best officers made it so worth it.

Whole-heartedly agree!
"Neener-neener, you spent half your weath on me and now I'm waltzing off with it because you're a bunch of a-holes" 
Hey man.. they wanted me back exactly as I was.  They shoulda known better than to think that I'd sacrifice my ideals for gratitude.

[Kahirn]

Naltair wrote...

Kahirn wrote...

ToshiStation38 wrote...

Not that I feel quite as strongly as the OP, I see where you're coming from. I was pretty pissed off at the Alliance, the Council, and Kaidan. Not really Tali, though. I wasn't really that attached to the first crew anyways.

Eh, 90% of the reason I'm mad with Tali is that she was my favorite character in Mass Effect 1. I really wanted more than what I got from the first two encounters with her. Its nice to read about how she wishes you were there to see the prothean ruins from a terminal but I just didn't find it to be enough to counter the whole why are you in cerberus blah blah blah nonsense.

Tali seemed quite happy to see you back, I am not sure what else you wanted.

A hug.

For her to bust out her Shepard doll that she sleeps with every night?  I think you have unrealistic expectations they were glad to have you back but the galaxy moved on, they moved on.  It happens, but she and Garrus join you once more they want to help and they are behind you... well unless you lose Tali's trust later on in the game.

A hug or her very own fem Shepard doll would have made me feel awesome. Either one works. I wanted Tali and Ashley/Kaidan to be a whole hell of a lot more like Garrus. Garrus went from having very little personality in Mass Effect 1 to always taking up a spot on my 3 man team in Mass Effect 2. They did an awesome job with him.

[Conway044]

flem1 wrote...

Kahirn wrote...

Not a single one of your companions lifts a damn finger to bring you back to life.

You haven't gotten far enough into the game to see this, I bet.

It would be interesting to RP a Shep who's wildly pro-Cerb and anti-old crew until he makes this discovery, though.

I missed this on my first play through.   It was a stupid decision to bury that conversation thread so far in.  My first play thorugh I was kind of annoyed at all the fedex type stuff Liara was asking me to do.  Kind of put me off talking to her.

I was happy when I found it on my second play through.  But as it is such an important plot element that I thought it should be placed in a more prominent spot.

[RayneMoon]

Kahirn wrote...
I would have literally bear hugged Tali and viciously delivered brutal headbutt after brutal headbutt till her mask shattered and she died from severe infection.

Modifié par RayneMoon, 17 février 2010 - 01:11 .

[TheTrac3r]

Am I the only one who finds the Tali part of the conversation ironic due to the fact that you do, in fact, hug her in a very emotional scene during the game. Or sleep with her, if you want. Or cuddle with her on the couch. Or in bed?

Most women wouldn't totally rush into bed with a resurrected half machine, crazed idealist who kills whole squads of men between breakfast and brunch. If anything, your old crew members are pretty chill concerning you. I guess Garrus has to be, though, he's a lil worse for wear himself.

Also, and MOST IMPORRTANTLY: Wrex bro-hugs you. He's so *****amn happy you're not dead. So come on.

Modifié par TheTrac3r, 17 février 2010 - 01:14 .

[TheTrac3r]

Unless you killed Wrex in ME1. In that case, let that be a lesson to all of you. If you kill someone in one game, they will not be around to tell everyone what a great guy you are in the sequel.

[Corporal Quarian]

Did the OP put ANY thought into this post?

Why/How would your squad come looking for you? Joker sees you get spaced. Everyone was in escape pods waiting to be picked up. When they were picked up, they were rescued and afterwards DISBANDED! So Kaiden had orders and had to go. Tali had only the Flotilla to go back to, who wouldn't spend time looking for Shepard. And Wrex was gone before the attack even occured.

Getting to the point, what hope would anyone have of finding you alive after being rescued and getting to a point where they could go back? The only people to blame are the Alliance and the Council, and even them not so much. Because they may have been able to find you, but they wouldn't spend BILLIONS of TAXPAYER money to bring you back. The only reason Cerberus did was because they are rich and have an agenda.

And Tali was VERY glad to see you alive. She simply didn't want to say much infront of Miranda and Jacob, for very good reasons.

Modifié par Corporal Quarian, 17 février 2010 - 01:46 .

[JThompson6577]

Kahirn wrote...

antilles333 wrote...

I wasn't trying to start a war...just saying I wouldn't want my body sold to a terrorist group.

Between that or death? Sell away. Cerberus by virtue of bringing you back to life saves the universe in Mass Effect 2. None too shabby for a terrorist group.

That's one thing I've started to wonder about.  I can't help but notice the juxtaposition of TIM's comment "Make sure he isn't lost" and the Collectors finding Normandy 1 and wiping it out.

I'm reasonably sure that at some point; be it by DLC or ME 3, we're gonna learn that TIM put a hit out on Shepard with the Collectors for the express purpose of bringing him under Cerberus' control.  They may not have intended to kill him, but I think they definately intended to cut him off from the Alliance and the Council for their own pro-humanity purposes.

So if that's the case, that means they murdered you by accident then brought you back in the ultimate "Oh Crap!  What have we done?" kind of moment.

Plus, they brought you back for the express purpose of obtaining Collector and likely Reaper tech.  Not exactly good motives.

Don't get me wrong, after Ash's bull on Horizon I couldn't get back up to the ship and hit on Miranda and Jack fast enough.  I'm just saying that they aren't complete bastards for treating Zombie Shep with at least a raised eyebrow.

Modifié par JThompson6577, 17 février 2010 - 02:20 .

[Kahirn]

TheTrac3r wrote...

Am I the only one who finds the Tali part of the conversation ironic due to the fact that you do, in fact, hug her in a very emotional scene during the game. Or sleep with her, if you want. Or cuddle with her on the couch. Or in bed?

Most women wouldn't totally rush into bed with a resurrected half machine, crazed idealist who kills whole squads of men between breakfast and brunch. If anything, your old crew members are pretty chill concerning you. I guess Garrus has to be, though, he's a lil worse for wear himself.

Also, and MOST IMPORRTANTLY: Wrex bro-hugs you. He's so *****amn happy you're not dead. So come on.

Oh man I haven't gotten far enough in the game for the Wrex bro-hug. It sounds awesome though. Wrex was my 2nd favorite companion in ME1. Seems like a lot changes later on. I'm just gonna let things go for now until I get further on in the game.

[Naltair]

Kahirn wrote...
Oh man I haven't gotten far enough in the game for the Wrex bro-hug. It sounds awesome though. Wrex was my 2nd favorite companion in ME1. Seems like a lot changes later on. I'm just gonna let things go for now until I get further on in the game.

That would be for the best.