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[RiouHotaru]

Warning: The following post will likely be extremely lengthy and wordy, as it discusses a rather complex (IMO) subject, so if you're going to comment, please take the time to actually READ it.  Thank you.


For the longest time, as I've scanned the forum board, whenever the issue of someone's favorite romance, or the character they find particularly attractive, and someone has named Tali or Garrus, someone inevitably comments wondering or asking how ANYONE could possibly find them attractive or asking "Why would you want to do X things with them?  They're bizzare!"  And it puzzled me that someone would make that comment.  And why would so many people ask the same question.  The answers were always different too.  Some for their personality, some for their appearance.

Now, I'll make it upfront and clear here.  If my sig isn't obvious enough, I'm a Garrus fan myself.  I'm also a gay man.  While I confess slight disappointment at a lack of Garrus bromance, I can live with rolling with a FemShep for that.  But, I sat down and very carefully analyzed my reasons for liking Garrus.  Admittedly, I was into him back in ME1, when he was a FAR less interesting character than his ME2 incarnation.  So, what could make this seemingly lacking character focus my interest like a sniper staring down the scope of his Widow at Harbinger?

For me?  It's the Uncanny Valley.  Now, in case you guys aren't familiar with it, the 'Uncanny Valley' is a theory developed by Masashiro Mori, a developer of robots.  Here's a quote from Wikipedia that sums up the idea:

(Taken from http://en.wikipedia..../Uncanny_valley)
"Mori's hypothesis states that as a robot is made more humanlike in
its appearance and motion, the emotional response from a human being to
the robot will become increasingly positive and empathic,
until a point is reached beyond which the response quickly becomes that
of strong revulsion. However, as the appearance and motion continue to
become less distinguishable from a human being, the emotional response
becomes positive once more and approaches human-to-human empathy levels.
This area of repulsive response aroused by a robot with appearance
and motion between a "barely human" and "fully human" entity is called
the uncanny valley. The name captures the idea that a robot which is
"almost human" will seem overly "strange" to a human being and thus
will fail to evoke the empathic response required for productive human-robot interactions."


Now, how would this theory apply to Mass Effect, a video game that has little to do with Robots outside of the Geth, and Legion?  Well, Legion himself garnered much love due to the Uncanny Valley.  Legion tends to fall on the left-hand side of the valley, with robots that look distinctly non-human, but possess human characteristics and mannerisms.  On the left-hand side of the valley, because the characters are distinctly inhuman, their human-like qualities stand out, accenting their near-humanity.

To me, personally, this is the primary reason behind my attraction to Garrus.  Yes, his personality and voice actor do account for that, but for me, his appearance does it.  Why is that?  Why would I be attracted to a space-raptor that's so decidedly in-human?  Precisely because he's not human.  Now, I find humans attractive, no doubt about that...but in a creative medium, I find that humans are...well...boring!  For example, the lovely Miranda Lawson.  Now before anyone claims that me being gay precludes me from commenting on her, I should let you know that I can still appreciate the aesthetic beauty of women, they just don't do anything for me sexually.

Now, Miranda was specifically designed by her father to be "perfect", with all of her features, her intelligence, her phyiscal attributes perfectly aligned to make her the peak of humanity.  Very much like Grunt, actually.  However, I found Miranda to be disconcerting, because of how life-like she looked compared to the rest of the human NPCs in the game.  A lot of the human characters you see, could likely be recreated in some fashion using the creator, but Miranda is special.  I'm aware that she was designed to resemble her voice actor, but look at the context of the in-game models.  Miranda is leagues different from even someone as pretty as Kelly Chambers.  Indeed, she's closer to realistically human, which makes her unnerving (to me), causing her to venture more on the right side of the valley (closer to photo-realism)

Compare Miranda to Tali now.  With Tali, we've got a character who is also decidedly inhuman, but unlike Garrus, she has the added bonus of a mystery face.  She also ventures on the left-side of the valley for this reason.  Because her facial expressions are obscured, players relay on the voice actor and body language to tell us what she wants.  Now, I'm sure that if we transplated Tali's personality with Miranda (and assume for the sake of argument that she was like this in ME1 as well) that people would continue to fanboy/girl over her just as hard as they do now.  In fact, many of them do not care what she would look like.  Even if she were comely and plain, they'd still love her all the same.  I know for a fact they cannot make her ugly, because otherwise Shepard would've likely been unnerved or had some reaction to her appearance.  But the fact the fans cannot see her face only enhances the experience for them.

This is also why I was never a huge fan of the Asari.  For one, the fans continued to insist they were female, despite Word of God claiming otherwise, with many folks declaring that FemShep/Liara was an f/f romance, despite the obviousness that it was NOT.  (I'm sorry, no matter how female she looks, the label DOES NOT APPLY)  However, from the perspective of the Uncanny Valley, the Asari tend towards the right-side with Miranda.  While this bothers me to some degree (especially the uniformity of their race), they don't provoke the same reaction as Miranda.  Basically, they're too human for me.  In a fictional creative medium which is as interactive as a video game can be, I prefer that my characters tend toward less realism, because, as anyone tinkering with the character creator in ME1 or 2 can tell you.  No matter how human you go for, something will always look wrong.  Thane is especially guilty of this, due to his very human appearance, down to the creepy flashbacks exposing the look of his eyes irisises, pupils, and all.

For the reason of the Uncanny Valley, for me personally, I find the more amicible and likeable characters to be progressively less and less human, because then the parts of them that mirror humanity stand out to me, and that catches my attention. And while I cannot claim to speak for everyone, I can probably fathom a guess that a good many folks feel the same way.

Thank you for enduring my analytical analysis of aliens, and the folks who love them.

Edit: For those who think the Uncanny Valley only applies to things specifcally not trying to be human, I refer you to this:

Double Edit: People have pointed out (likely correctly) that I might be applying the Uncanny Valley incorrectly.  If this is so, I apologize in advance.  This is merely a statement of my opinion that I formulated after reading several thought provoking threads, and wanted to get the opinions of others about.  I felt that the Uncanny Valley fit the profile of my opinion.  Please forgive me if my science isn't entirely accurate.

Triple Edit: At the suggestion of a poster, I'll give a tl;dr version of my argument, since the original argument is likely a bit complicated for most.

I find Tali/Garrus to be more attractive than the humans, because they
tend to stick to the far left hand side of the Valley, being distinctly
non-human, but have distinctive human characteristics.  Characters like Miranda/Jacob/Ashley/Kaidan on the other
hand, push a bit closer to the Valley, which provokes either unease or
amusement (in the ME1 pair's case) due to their graphical
representation being off in some areas.

There.  Now, if you don't know what the Valley is, both links will tell you.  But this should make it a lot easier for people to understand what I was trying to get at.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 16 février 2010 - 08:06 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Pretty sure it's their voices and their personalities, not the uncanny vally. I found the human squadmates attractive as well, just not as attractive as Tali and Garrus' voices and personalities.

[Kileyan]

For the most part, the uncanny valley is meant for something that is trying to be human, something that is really close but lacks emotions or the body language and comes off as just off enough that we find it unnatural or creepy in minor but important feature, often things we can't even put a finger on at first thought of why it is creepy.

It is about when something comes so close, but it can't fake it, it becomes creepy.

Most of what you just named are species that will always be what they will be. They aren't trying to be humans.

Maybe all this would apply is you are dressing up Legion in wigs and makeup. He likely could act totally human, but something would be a bit off:)

Yeh it is easier to fake a very similar speices than fake a human maybe in a vidoe game. But in this case, I really don't find find any of the human actors creepy or falling into that uncanny valley.

Hmm, Bioware did a good job, I never noticed looking at any npc or main character and thinking they were robotic, well except for the robots......

Modifié par Kileyan, 16 février 2010 - 07:02 .

[SteelEagleShane]

As far as Miranda is concerned: I am a heterosexual engaged man and she didn't pique my interest at all. It ties into what you said- her model made her feel unusual and special, hence...what you said. Basically, you described it very well, the human traits that Tali/Garrus have are what make them markedly more interesting because of what they look like.

[KainrycKarr]

I think it's both VA/Personality and this "uncanny valley". I also think that was an extremely well-written post.



In fact, I can vouch for this because I know for a fact I prefer the Tali romance over Jack/Miranda BECAUSE of how different and "exotic" it is.



Also, I have a real girlfriend already. I don't need a virtual human girlfriend....I already know how they work, what they look like, etc. But, say an "alien" even a fictional one, represents unknown territory, and is thus, to me at least, far more interesting.

[RiouHotaru]

@Gill Kaiser: Ahh, for reference I was referring specifically to Tali/Garrus.



@Kileyan: But that's the thing, the Uncanny Valley can apply to things outside of robots. Again, the closer to human a character or being becomes, the more uneasy it makes it's audience. You're right, in that the aliens aren't designed to be human. But for me, the lack of "humanity" makes the turians much more appealing to me than the Asari. The Asari were designed to look more human, which begins to approach the valley.

[flem1]

The "uncanny valley" is pure pop psych hokum. Research actually shows that there IS no valley where more real = worse.

[KainrycKarr]

flem1 wrote...

The "uncanny valley" is pure pop psych hokum. Research actually shows that there IS no valley where more real = worse.

For the sake of argument, do you have a source?

[Gill Kaiser]

flem1 wrote...

The "uncanny valley" is pure pop psych hokum. Research actually shows that there IS no valley where more real = worse.

Care to back this up? Because as far as I understand it, it's a well known and research-based theory, the effects of which I've certainly observed in myself.

Modifié par Gill Kaiser, 16 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[Cutlass Jack]

About the only thing interesting with Miranda is her 'uncanny vallies.'

But seriously, strangely Tali felt more like an actual 'human' romance to me than Miranda's ever could.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 16 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[flem1]

Erm, there was a thread in the old Bio boards. Lemme see if I can find it.

[KainrycKarr]

flem1 wrote...

Erm, there was a thread in the old Bio boards. Lemme see if I can find it.

Not a thread...an actual source.

[marshalleck]

"Uncanny valley" as it is commonly understood does not apply to characters that are clearly not human.

[Tisiphne]

Because they are very human. Particularly Garrus. If you close your eyes, he's your buddy next door. No real accent, no odd phrasing, just a normal guy. I would argue that the Quarians and Turians are the most human-like races. Even the Asari are inextricably alien in their lack of gender, extremely long lives, and their culture (take Justicars, and the refinement of Matriarchs). Hanarr, Volus, Elcor, Batarians, and Salarians have different speech patterns and are much more alien. I was really startled when I first talked to Garrus in ME1. The first thought that crossed my mind was, how can anybody alien be so very much like us? Even Kaidan was more strange - the Biotic, brought up by a collective.



I couldn't pursue a romance with him, particularly after Mordin's "speech", but I can see how some could overlook the *ahem* logistical problems.

[HAGA NAGA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

This is also why I was never a huge fan of the Asari.  For one, the fans continued to insist they were female, despite Word of God claiming otherwise, with many folks declaring that FemShep/Liara was an f/f romance, despite the obviousness that it was NOT.  (I'm sorry, no matter how female she looks, the label DOES NOT APPLY) 

I find your post interesting, but as open-minded as your views on why players are attracted to aliens in terms of the "uncanny valley" i find it hard to understand why you can't also understand some players attraction to the asari for the "lesbian" implications. rather, you seem to utterly dismiss the "lesbian" implications altogether which seems strange.

[RiouHotaru]

flem1 wrote...

Erm, there was a thread in the old Bio boards. Lemme see if I can find it.

You may have mixed up the Uncanny Valley with something else.  The idea behind the Uncanny Valley is that the closer a non-human (robot for instance) starts to resemble a human, anything that would look out of the ordinary becomes glaring obvious, and horribly unnerving for the audience.

Take the Final Fantasy movie for instance.  Or the Polar Express movie.  Now, eventually you pass the Valley, but at that point the object/being in question looks exactly like a regular human being (photo-realism).  It's the fact that you have to pass through the Valley to get there that is the difficulty.

[Gill Kaiser]

RiouHotaru wrote...

flem1 wrote...

Erm, there was a thread in the old Bio boards. Lemme see if I can find it.

You may have mixed up the Uncanny Valley with something else.  The idea behind the Uncanny Valley is that the closer a non-human (robot for instance) starts to resemble a human, anything that would look out of the ordinary becomes glaring obvious, and horribly unnerving for the audience.

Take the Final Fantasy movie for instance.  Or the Polar Express movie.  Now, eventually you pass the Valley, but at that point the object/being in question looks exactly like a regular human being (photo-realism).  It's the fact that you have to pass through the Valley to get there that is the difficulty.

Yep. Precisely why Avatar took so long to come to fruition, because James Cameron had to spend years developing the new mocap and rendering technology, but also because for the film to work the Uncanny Valley had to be entirely overcome.

[RiouHotaru]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

This is also why I was never a huge fan of the Asari.  For one, the fans continued to insist they were female, despite Word of God claiming otherwise, with many folks declaring that FemShep/Liara was an f/f romance, despite the obviousness that it was NOT.  (I'm sorry, no matter how female she looks, the label DOES NOT APPLY) 

I find your post interesting, but as open-minded as your views on why players are attracted to aliens in terms of the "uncanny valley" i find it hard to understand why you can't also understand some players attraction to the asari for the "lesbian" implications. rather, you seem to utterly dismiss the "lesbian" implications altogether which seems strange.

Implications are one thing.  But players who insist that the Asari constitue a race of lesbians and that "Bioware isn't fooling anyone with that mono-gendered nonsense" is what bothers me.  If they enjoy the Asari for the opinion that it feels like an F/F romance, that's fine with me.  But not when they treat it as though it's a statement of fact.

[WoodWizzard87]

The emotion the Voice actors put into each sentence is what bridges the gap for me. Personally, Miranda had an amazing body modeled after Yvonne Strahovski, but the costume she wears was kinda of an upper and a downer at the same time. I felt more attached to her and Tali due to the voice acting that was outstanding and very emotional above anything else. Grunts voice actor also did a ****ing phenomenal job.

[marshalleck]

RiouHotaru wrote...

You may have mixed up the Uncanny Valley with something else.  The idea behind the Uncanny Valley is that the closer a non-human (robot for instance) starts to resemble a human, anything that would look out of the ordinary becomes glaring obvious, and horribly unnerving for the audience.

Actually I think you're the one that has a mistaken understanding of the concept. Whether or not it's a real phenomenon is beside the point; lets go ahead and assume it's true.

Uncanny valley applies to representations of humans--it could be digital art, animation, robots, etc. But they are all created to be facsimiles of humans, meaning the creator is striving to create the illusion that it's an actual person.

This can't apply to the geth or clearly non-human aliens, because well...no matter how they act, nobody will mistake them for a human.

The uncanny valley is when a representation of a human falls just short of creating the illusion of a living, breathing person. There's just something not right about the person, but the viewer can't quite tell what it is. Maybe it doesn't blink appropriately, or there's an inhuman, vacant quality to its eyes or facial expressions.

[flem1]

RiouHotaru wrote...

flem1 wrote...

Erm, there was a thread in the old Bio boards. Lemme see if I can find it.

You may have mixed up the Uncanny Valley with something else.  The idea behind the Uncanny Valley is that the closer a non-human (robot for instance) starts to resemble a human, anything that would look out of the ordinary becomes glaring obvious, and horribly unnerving for the audience

No, that's what I mean -- except you're wrong.  To be a "valley', there would also have to be a point where more photorealistic = no longer unnerving.

This is a pop psych myth popularized by Roger Ebert.  There's a bit of a lit review in this archived thread -- to summarize, the studies show either that there's a wholly direct correlation between realism and non-eerieness or a slight rise in eerieness with full realism. There is no valley, period.

If there are so many good studies showing this exists, please link one.

Modifié par flem1, 16 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[HAGA NAGA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

This is also why I was never a huge fan of the Asari.  For one, the fans continued to insist they were female, despite Word of God claiming otherwise, with many folks declaring that FemShep/Liara was an f/f romance, despite the obviousness that it was NOT.  (I'm sorry, no matter how female she looks, the label DOES NOT APPLY) 

I find your post interesting, but as open-minded as your views on why players are attracted to aliens in terms of the "uncanny valley" i find it hard to understand why you can't also understand some players attraction to the asari for the "lesbian" implications. rather, you seem to utterly dismiss the "lesbian" implications altogether which seems strange.

Implications are one thing.  But players who insist that the Asari constitue a race of lesbians and that "Bioware isn't fooling anyone with that mono-gendered nonsense" is what bothers me.  If they enjoy the Asari for the opinion that it feels like an F/F romance, that's fine with me.  But not when they treat it as though it's a statement of fact.

oh ok. i'm with you on that, but obviously those players that keep insisting it was a f/f interaction "went after" Liara for that reason, and i would argue that Bioware knew it too and "fed" them that content becuase they knew people would eat it up. if you are going to argue that bioware has addressed the "uncanny valley" as it relates to players attraction to alien characters, certainly you can see where they've addressed pro-f/f romance players with the design of the asari.

[DuffyMJ]

too theoretical for my taste, the simplest explanations are the most likely, and the simple fact is tali is a sweet heart and garrus is a cool guy whereas:



- miranda talks about being "dad's legacy" too much and doesn't play nice with others

- Jack is... well, come on now we all know...

- Ash lacks social skills

- Liara is bookish to the extreme and looks like she wants to dissect shepard

- Jacob is all about the Prrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiize

- Thane cries.

- Kaiden can't let go of his magic camp headaches

[Aviena]

Thanks for this post! Quite an enjoyable read.

Your comments on Miranda were particularly interesting - I found myself "hmming" and nodding at my PC screen.  However, the parts concerning Liara and the Asari in general threw me a little. While they're designed to be pretty, sure, I certainly wouldn't say that they were further towards the right hand side than, say, Ashley or Kelly Chambers.

If anything, I'd describe the Asari as very stylized. I think there's in fact a Turian, a Salarian and a human on Illium that have a half-joking conversation about whether the Asari are more similar to Salarians, Turians or humans. Each man insists that the Asari is more similar to their own race than that of their friends - but the example each gives to back up his assertion is quite obvious to the player eavesdropping on their conversation. If anything I think this drives the Asari more towards the left - the human elements are there, but so are the salarian and the turian ones (and, heck, they're BLUE).

[rwscissors702]

Nice post, if I remember right the uncanny valley was cited as one of the reasons that Final Fantasy movie did so poorly in the box office a few years ago. I agree the creepiest character in the game is one of the humans. For me it's Jacob though, he's worse than the collectors.